Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Fincra5]

And how likely is a major crash? Clutching at straws I'm afraid.
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And indeed on the HS1 Javelins and the OBS can interact with passengers without having to dash off to do the doors every few minutes.

Difference is.. HS1 Javelins will not run in service without an OBS.

GTR won't give that guarantee. Hence the larger issue! It creates exploitable loopholes. Like how 12 cars became a think on TLK DOO... and now on SN/GatEx too.

 

[Antman]

The likelihood of a major plane crash is unlikely as air travel is very safe yet there must be a certain number of staff on board in addition to the flight crew.

I think you're one clutching at straws.


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On HS1 the stations are 7, 10 and 20 minutes apart. That's hardly every few minutes.


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Comparisons to air travel are ridiculous and many stations served by Javelins are a few minutes apart.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When I lived in London I used the Underground reguarly. They are considered safe enough to run permenantly without guards

And "safe enough" is the key phrase there.

Most of the time nothing untoward happens, so there's no need for staff. Issues are very rare. But it is when issues happen that guards are useful. However the business decision is that paying out cash for issues is cheaper than having the staff who can prevent them.

The Chancery Lane and Mile End derailments on the Central Line showed, by their absence, the value of guards. But the cash payouts for the chaotic and dangerous train evacuations were cheaper than paying to have the guards.

 

[Antman]

I'm utterly speechless at that comment. How likely was it that that embankment at Watford would give way? 99.9% things run smoothly, but in that 0.1% when major accidents happen people are killed or injured if you don't have the right people and safeguards in place. If you are a bus driver you certainly seem to have a very blaise attitude to safety.

Oh please don't get so melodramatic!

In the unlikely event of a serious accident the presence of a guard (or not) is likely to be the least of the problems.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

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On HS1 the stations are 7, 10 and 20 minutes apart. That's hardly every few minutes.


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I think the OP means stations not on the high speed section of HS1 but those served by Javelins such as in Thanet where a few stations are a few minutes apart

 

[Antman]

Difference is.. HS1 Javelins will not run in service without an OBS.

GTR won't give that guarantee. Hence the larger issue! It creates exploitable loopholes. Like how 12 cars became a think on TLK DOO... and now on SN/GatEx too.

Apparently (well so I was told) a second crew member is essential because of the tunnel sections, I don't know if anybody can confirm that?
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I think the OP means stations not on the high speed section of HS1 but those served by Javelins such as in Thanet where a few stations are a few minutes apart

Thank you that is indeed what I meant!

 

[Tetchytyke]

In the unlikely event of a serious accident the presence of a guard (or not) is likely to be the least of the problems.

It depends how serious your incident is. On something like 7/7 the presence of the guard isn't going to make much difference, although it would certainly have helped Control understand what was happening much sooner than they did.

But it's the little niggly incidents that escalate out of hand that show the value of a guard. Incidents like Kentish Town, Chancery Lane or Mile End, little bits of nonsense that escalated into a gold-plated FUBAR with a neon sign on top simply because it was impossible for one member of staff to control the situation.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm utterly speechless at that comment. How likely was it that that embankment at Watford would give way? 99.9% things run smoothly, but in that 0.1% when major accidents happen people are killed or injured if you don't have the right people and safeguards in place. If you are a bus driver you certainly seem to have a very blaise attitude to safety.

Clearly not!

I would also say that the Watford cutting collapse was significantly likely, knowing the history of similar chalk cuttings (Hooley/Couldson, for example) coupled with the fact that the very part that collapsed was the only section not to have been stabilised under the project going on there.

 

[Dave1987]

Oh please don't get so melodramatic!

In the unlikely event of a serious accident the presence of a guard (or not) is likely to be the least of the problems.

Having seen the results of what happens when you take such a blaise attitude to safety as like what has happened around the world with many serious crashes and deaths I hardly call it melodramatic. The whole reason we have such a good safety record in this country is because we take safety so seriously. When we start taking it for granted people get injured or killed. The Watford tunnel incident has demonstrated how a guard can be crucial in keeping people safe, and other incidents have shown how people are likely to put themselves in danger if the driver is unable to give them the info they want straight away.
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Clearly not!

I would also say that the Watford cutting collapse was significantly likely, knowing the history of similar chalk cuttings (Hooley/Couldson, for example) coupled with the fact that the very part that collapsed was the only section not to have been stabilised under the project going on there.

It was a figure of speech :roll:

Clearly the likely of a major crash isn't unlikely then!!

 

[Taunton]

Incidents like Kentish Town ... little bits of nonsense that escalated into a gold-plated FUBAR with a neon sign on top simply because it was impossible for one member of staff to control the situation.

I agree with you that Kentish Town was a calamitous situation, but not so much because of the presence or absence of a guard as gross incompetence in defining all the procedures for handling an incident. There are meant to be adequate resources to back up a driver when this happens, they just were not there and what was done showed complete incompetence.

 

[infobleep]

And how likely is a major crash? Clutching at straws I'm afraid.

How often does a train get canceled because of no guard? On South West Trains at least it's rare I'd say. So are you clutching at straws?

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[Dave1987]

How often does a train get canceled because of no guard? On South West Trains at least it's rare I'd say. So are you clutching at straws?

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Indeed it only really happens during major disruption when guards are very very useful to give out real time info to passengers from their smart devices.

 

[Fincra5]

Indeed it only really happens during major disruption when guards are very very useful to give out real time info to passengers from their smart devices.

Used to be the same on SN. Trains were only cancelled due to a guard disrupted. However it seems GTR's dire staffing levels have caused more cancellations related to "train crew shortage" .. but then not always!

 

[otomous]

I'm utterly speechless at that comment. How likely was it that that embankment at Watford would give way? 99.9% things run smoothly, but in that 0.1% when major accidents happen people are killed or injured if you don't have the right people and safeguards in place. If you are a bus driver you certainly seem to have a very blaise attitude to safety.

Best not to feed the ants Dave. We've had the "people don't care about whether there is a guard" peddled about three times during the debate now, and I know from my own experience that people certainly do care.

 

[Antman]

Best not to feed the ants Dave. We've had the "people don't care about whether there is a guard" peddled about three times during the debate now, and I know from my own experience that people certainly do care.

Funny but I travel on trains without guards regularly and I've never heard any murmurings of concern from passengers. Still what do I know? The fact that I've got no vested interest and can comment impartially probably means that I don't know what I'm talking about:roll:!

 

[notadriver]

Funny but I travel on trains without guards regularly and I've never heard any murmurings of concern from passengers. Still what do I know? The fact that I've got no vested interest and can comment impartially probably means that I don't know what I'm talking about:roll:!

Well it would be like someone who doesn't drive a bus telling you how to do your job wouldn't it ?


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[Antman]

Well it would be like someone who doesn't drive a bus telling you how to do your job wouldn't it ?


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I packed up bus driving years ago but it's hardly a reasonable comparison anyway.

 

[ah-media]

From tonight's Standard ... Sign DOO contract by Thursday night or don't bother coming back

Link to Story

Southern Rail bosses issued an ultimatum to 400 train guards planning further strikes to call off the action and sign new deals - or they will have effectively sacked themselves.

They said if the new contracts were not signed by Friday and industrial action halted, then all offers currently on the table would be withdrawn and the company will press ahead with changes to the role of the guard anyway.

In a letter delivered this morning, Andy Bindon, human resources director for Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR,) parent company of Southern, told RMT leader Mick Cash that the strikes were having a huge impact both on passengers and the regional economy

“Your unnecessary action is continuing to have a material and negative impact on people’s work and family lives as well as the regional economy and I urge you to stop,” he said.

Guards will stage a 48 hour strike on Friday and Saturday plus a further two-day and a three-day walkout in protest over the changing roll of the guard.
Read more
Southern Rail crisis halts house price growth

GTR is calling on the RMT to “reconsider its position” given “there have been 15 days of wholly unjustified strikes” and a further seven days of “disruption and misery” on passengers are planned in the coming weeks.

Southern is replacing guards with on-board supervisors, with responsibility for operating the carriage doors transferred to the driver.

The union says this is unsafe – claims denied by Southern which says driver-only-operation is used safely across other parts of the region and the UK as a whole.

Mr Bindon made clear that if the union does not call off the strikes then an offer currently on the table will be withdrawn.

He states: “For the avoidance of doubt, should your next planned action proceed at 00.01 on 4 November the offer is withdrawn in its entirety and will no longer be available for the RMT to accept.

“There have now been 15 days of wholly unjustified strikes, with your union now set to inflict a further seven days of disruption and misery on passengers in the coming weeks.

“I hope you will reconsider your position. We are ready to meet you any time this week should you want to discuss our offer”.

Mr Bindon said the offer, on the table for nearly three months, includes a five-year jobs guarantee, above inflation pay rises for two years, guaranteed minimum levels of overtime and more trains than today having a safety-trained person on board.

 

[quantinghome]

I wonder if the RMT are being played. It seems like they've been suckered into a fight that they can't win.

 

[Carlisle]

I wonder if the RMT are being played. It seems like they've been suckered into a fight that they can't win.

I get the impression that whilst RMT are fully aware they've lost this fight themselves, assuming a successful ASLEF ballot there's still a hope the drivers can ultimately win it for them

 

[Dave1987]

I get the impression that whilst RMT are fully aware they've probably lost this fight themselves, assuming a successful ASLEF ballot there's still a hope the drivers can ultimately win it for them

Actually sounds like they are getting more and more desperate for the industrial action to be halted.

 

[Carlisle]

Actually sounds like they are getting more and more desperate for the industrial action to be halted.

Unions dragging the traveling public through months of disruption then offering only more severe stoppagess is merely going to alienate users much more unless their grievances are genuinely colossal, most passangers whilst freely admitting they're not remotely railway operations experts aren't totally gullible either

 

[Chrisgr31]

Indeed it only really happens during major disruption when guards are very very useful to give out real time info to passengers from their smart devices.

Which is the ironic thing I am sure I have mentioned before. Its in times of disruption that you need the information the guard/OBS can art with, but going forward also the most likely time that you won't have an OBS.
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Of the incidents involving dispatch that have been investigated by the RAIB, here is a list of the method of dispatch involved.

DOO self dispatch CCTV

Huntingdon
Brentwood
West Wickham
Hayes & Harlington
Tooting (London Undergound)
Holborn (London Underground)
Warren Street (London Underground) - Doors open in traffic.

DOO self dispatch Mirror

Jarrow

DOO dispatch by platform staff

Kings Cross
Charing Cross
Liverpool Street - Doors open in traffic.

Guard self dispatch

Liverpool James Street
Newcastle Central

And for those of us who have access to SPAD briefings, the amount of SPADS in DOO land where the driver has claimed "distraction from passengers" is very large. Fortunately TPWS has usually put a stop to them.

This is what is so odd, the RSSB suggest that DOO might be safer than guard dispatch however in the 10 incidents investigated by the RAIB only 2 were guard dispatch, and DOO only applies to between 30 and 40% of trains so how do those statistics work?

I guess the fly in the ointment is the case where a guard is now in prison. That guard made a decision to dispatch the train when he should not have done and is in prison as a result. Some may understand the reasons why he dispatched the train but that doesn't help the stats. The real issue is that in several of the DOO cases the driver should have seen the trapped person and didn't.

The real question is whether the number of incidents that occur are acceptable and a risk worth taking. The chances of me or any others on this forum being trapped are very low, however the chances of us needing the fire brigade as our house is burning down are also very low. Would we want to get rid of the fire brigade?

Then there is the separate issue as to the other safety roles of the guard, yes the chances of an incident are low but they do happen but its unclear how much the role of the 2nd person on board is investigated/reported on following an incident.

What does remain the case is that neither ASLEF nor the RMT are busy publicising the safety related case for keeping the guard with facts and figures.

 

[Andrew32]

Mr Bindon made clear that if the union does not call off the strikes then an offer currently on the table will be withdrawn.

He states: “For the avoidance of doubt, should your next planned action proceed at 00.01 on 4 November the offer is withdrawn in its entirety and will no longer be available for the RMT to accept.

“There have now been 15 days of wholly unjustified strikes, with your union now set to inflict a further seven days of disruption and misery on passengers in the coming weeks.

“I hope you will reconsider your position. We are ready to meet you any time this week should you want to discuss our offer”.

Mr Bindon said the offer, on the table for nearly three months, includes a five-year jobs guarantee, above inflation pay rises for two years, guaranteed minimum levels of overtime and more trains than today having a safety-trained person on board.

Looks like someone is getting desperate!

They know ASLEF will have them over a barrel now that they have confirmed thier plans by issuing guards with the mandatory 12 weeks notice.

What's all of this rubbish about a 5 year job guarantee, two years above inflation wage rise and more trains than today having a safety-trained person on board?

The commitment wanted is a safety-trained person on EVERY TRAIN and the dispute has never been about money.

The offer has been withdrawn countless times and the £2000 carrot dangled twice.

The reality is that Southern can't run a proper service when industrial action isn't taking place.

 

[Barn]

This is what is so odd, the RSSB suggest that DOO might be safer than guard dispatch however in the 10 incidents investigated by the RAIB only 2 were guard dispatch, and DOO only applies to between 30 and 40% of trains so how do those statistics work?

What percentage of passenger journeys are on DOO trains? I suspect rather more than the percentage of trains. Even more so if LUL included, as it was in the cases cited in that post.

 

[infobleep]

From tonight's Standard ... Sign DOO contract by Thursday night or don't bother coming back

Link to Story

Southern Rail bosses issued an ultimatum to 400 train guards planning further strikes to call off the action and sign new deals - or they will have effectively sacked themselves.

They said if the new contracts were not signed by Friday and industrial action halted, then all offers currently on the table would be withdrawn and the company will press ahead with changes to the role of the guard anyway.

In a letter delivered this morning, Andy Bindon, human resources director for Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR,) parent company of Southern, told RMT leader Mick Cash that the strikes were having a huge impact both on passengers and the regional economy

“Your unnecessary action is continuing to have a material and negative impact on people’s work and family lives as well as the regional economy and I urge you to stop,” he said.

Guards will stage a 48 hour strike on Friday and Saturday plus a further two-day and a three-day walkout in protest over the changing roll of the guard.
Read more
Southern Rail crisis halts house price growth

GTR is calling on the RMT to “reconsider its position” given “there have been 15 days of wholly unjustified strikes” and a further seven days of “disruption and misery” on passengers are planned in the coming weeks.

Southern is replacing guards with on-board supervisors, with responsibility for operating the carriage doors transferred to the driver.

The union says this is unsafe – claims denied by Southern which says driver-only-operation is used safely across other parts of the region and the UK as a whole.

Mr Bindon made clear that if the union does not call off the strikes then an offer currently on the table will be withdrawn.

He states: “For the avoidance of doubt, should your next planned action proceed at 00.01 on 4 November the offer is withdrawn in its entirety and will no longer be available for the RMT to accept.

“There have now been 15 days of wholly unjustified strikes, with your union now set to inflict a further seven days of disruption and misery on passengers in the coming weeks.

“I hope you will reconsider your position. We are ready to meet you any time this week should you want to discuss our offer”.

Mr Bindon said the offer, on the table for nearly three months, includes a five-year jobs guarantee, above inflation pay rises for two years, guaranteed minimum levels of overtime and more trains than today having a safety-trained person on board.

So where are these extra safety trained people going to come from and why they they supply them OBS but not guards?

Trains are being cancelled due to lack of staff and not all the lack of staff is a lack of guards? Some of it is drivers.

Are they going to run the trains without drivers? Haha.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like someone is getting desperate!

They know ASLEF will have them over a barrel now that they have confirmed thier plans by issuing guards with the mandatory 12 weeks notice.

What's all of this rubbish about a 5 year job guarantee, two years above inflation wage rise and more trains than today having a safety-trained person on board?

The commitment wanted is a safety-trained person on EVERY TRAIN and the dispute has never been about money.

The offer has been withdrawn countless times and the £2000 carrot dangled twice.

The reality is that Southern can't run a proper service when industrial action isn't taking place.

They can't run a proper service even without the industrial action. This is shown by the various cancellations today. The London Bridge to Guildford service was canceled and the London Victoria to Guildford was terminated at Leatherhead. This affected their return workings too.

That's only two trains I list, out of all those cancelled and today was not a strike day.

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[Robertj21a]

So where are these extra safety trained people going to come from and why they they supply them OBS but not guards?

Trains are being cancelled due to lack of staff and not all the lack of staff is a lack of guards? Some of it is drivers.

Are they going to run the trains without drivers? Haha.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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They can't run a proper service even without the industrial action. This is shown by the various cancellations today. The London Bridge to Guildford service was canceled and the London Victoria to Guildford was terminated at Leatherhead. This affected their return workings too.

That's only two trains I list, out of all those cancelled and today was not a strike day.

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Any idea how many were cancelled in total over the day ? Would a few trips get cancelled (for a variety of reasons) every day or are they usually 100% ?

 

[AlterEgo]

What percentage of passenger journeys are on DOO trains? I suspect rather more than the percentage of trains. Even more so if LUL included, as it was in the cars cited in that post.

A better statistic would be the number of incidents per passenger entry or exit of a passenger door. DOO is heavily concentrated in the South East and London, on the busiest metro routes, transporting passengers often in crush loaded conditions.

Unfortunately nobody has crunched the numbers on that yet.

 

[Fincra5]

Unions dragging the traveling public through months of disruption then offering only more severe stoppagess is merely going to alienate users much more unless their grievances are genuinely colossal, most passangers whilst freely admitting they're not remotely railway operations experts aren't totally gullible either

Yes because this is only down to the Unions :roll: Got nothing to do with GTR?Gov bullying its way through and forcing changes on people.

 

[Barn]

A better statistic would be the number of incidents per passenger entry or exit of a passenger door.

Yes, I wondered about that, but then I figured that every passenger journey usually includes one entry and one exit and so they're fairly synonymous. The point is that the number of journeys is more important than the number of trains, or the number of passenger kilometres.