Ordsall Chord

[YorkshireBear]

1. From the SW - the benefit is for some of the Airport to Leeds/Yorkshire/NE trains to avoid having to cross Piccadilly throat and reverse.
2. From NW - agreed, little benefit
3. From the SE - As with (1) some trains will run via Victoria and avoid the throat at Piccadilly and a reversal.
4. From NE - as you say the greatest benefit with direct trains to the Airport from the likes of Bradford, Halifax, Rochdale, etc

The entire south of Piccadilly will benefit as the removal of the Liverpool-Scarborough service as part of the package has allowed 2-3 extra northern services per hour.
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I can see most passengers heading into Manchester city centre via Victoria alighting there and walking / using the tram to complete the journey in. The tram / train interface is slightly easier, and more obvious than at Piccadilly, and it's a few minutes walk from Oxford Road to the tram network (assuming of course services don't call at Deansgate). It would be even better if Northern / TPE made an agreement to make onward travel into the city centre via tram for a small charge available as an option. So you could have tickets to Manchester (All Stations) and Manchester (City Centre via tram) for a couple of quid more, certainly something I would use.

I think a ticket already exists for this. It is called Manchester CTZL.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/Rail-and-Metrolink-combined.aspx

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be even better if Northern / TPE made an agreement to make onward travel into the city centre via tram for a small charge available as an option. So you could have tickets to Manchester (All Stations) and Manchester (City Centre via tram) for a couple of quid more, certainly something I would use.

Do not forget the three Manchester Metroshuttle bus routes which are free to all, taking you into different parts of the city core and which at least two of these stop at both Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly railway stations.

 

[lejog]

I think a ticket already exists for this. It is called Manchester CTZL.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/Rail-and-Metrolink-combined.aspx

Or from outside Greater Manchester, its a ticket to Metrolink City Zone.

 

[markem41]

I think a ticket already exists for this. It is called Manchester CTZL.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/Rail-and-Metrolink-combined.aspx[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's surprising how many rail users don't know about this! You usually get CTLZ on your rail ticket into Manchester without asking and you can use it for free travel on trams in the City Zone.

 

[Geeves]

My impression from the plans is that several of the piers and abutments supporting the Trinity Way bridge can't be built until the road is realigned, either back to its original course or to a new temporary one. Good to hear of progress though.

Steve you will be glad to know the road has already been running on its new temporary alignment for a few months now so that progress can carry on unimpeded.

As said you only get CTLZ on your ticket if you are boarding from a station internal to the TfGM empire travelling to or through Manchester. Salford Central is an odd one as it can be put in the machine even though it comes under the group.

 

[snowball]

Steve you will be glad to know the road has already been running on its new temporary alignment for a few months now

I think he already knew that, hence his use of the phrase "either back to its original course or to a new temporary one".

The temporary diversion has been to widen the usually southbound carriageway on its Manchester side, so that the usually northbound carriageway can be used for piling rigs and other kit. But he's suggesting that the widened bit may itself be in the way of bridge supports that will eventually be between Trinity Way and the river (or that the left lane of northbound traffic is currently passing so close to the original central reservation that it may interfere with the erection of bridge supports thereon).

 

[SteveRainhill]

I think he already knew that, hence his use of the phrase "either back to its original course or to a new temporary one".

The temporary diversion has been to widen the usually southbound carriageway on its Manchester side, so that the usually northbound carriageway can be used for piling rigs and other kit. But he's suggesting that the widened bit may itself be in the way of bridge supports that will eventually be between Trinity Way and the river (or that the left lane of northbound traffic is currently passing so close to the original central reservation that it may interfere with the erection of bridge supports thereon).

Yes that's what I meant, thanks snowball, but thanks to G for reply. Here's why I think so (from the Design Guide):

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[Greybeard33]

Difficult to work out the facts from the Press release most of which is spin.

A few points.
It seems the Chord will be done by December 2017

They say electric trains Manchester to Preston in December 2017 . This has been doubted by many including me due the lack of progress. I still think the jury is out.
However I think most of us have understood that the power for this has to come from the New sub station at Stalybridge which means they have to wire to there as well but if so why not say so.

The press release implies new services around the Chord from December 2017. Is this just the re-routed TPE services or one from Calder Valley say the Burnley one as well.

Finally two new Depots one in Lancashire(presumably Blackburn) but also one in GM. Where will this be? Will it be Guide Bridge

Considering that the 2tph from Wigan via Bolton will have to be diesel until Wigan to Lostock Jn is electrified, maybe the plan is that they will form the 2tph Victoria to Stalybridge service from Dec 2017? Then Northern's 3tph Preston to Manchester via Chorley electrics would go 1tph to the Airport and 2tph to Hazel Grove, so the Victoria to Stalybridge wiring would not be needed for the time being. Indeed Victoria would be left with no electric services at all, since the Liverpool stopper is to be rerouted to the Airport.

Regarding the Stalybridge Grid Supply Point, maybe the existing Willow Park GSP will be able to cope with Preston to Manchester for the time being? Northern's 3tph via Chorley will be an additional load, but Parkside is already supplying the TPE Scottish trains on the Chat Moss line and the WCML - they will not use any more power when they switch to the Chorley line. And Willow Park is currently supplying Northern's 2tph Manchester to Liverpool 319s on the Chat Moss - this will drop to 1tph from Dec 2017 when the fast service moves to the CLC line and becomes diesel.

 

[Viscount702]

Considering that the 2tph from Wigan via Bolton will have to be diesel until Wigan to Lostock Jn is electrified, maybe the plan is that they will form the 2tph Victoria to Stalybridge service from Dec 2017? Then Northern's 3tph Preston to Manchester via Chorley electrics would go 1tph to the Airport and 2tph to Hazel Grove, so the Victoria to Stalybridge wiring would not be needed for the time being. Indeed Victoria would be left with no electric services at all, since the Liverpool stopper is to be rerouted to the Airport.

Regarding the Stalybridge Grid Supply Point, maybe the existing Parkside GSP will be able to cope with Preston to Manchester for the time being? Northern's 3tph via Chorley will be an additional load, but Parkside is already supplying the TPE Scottish trains on the Chat Moss line and the WCML - they will not use any more power when they switch to the Chorley line. And Parkside is currently supplying Northern's 2tph Manchester to Liverpool 319s on the Chat Moss - this will drop to 1tph from Dec 2017 when the fast service moves to the CLC line and becomes diesel.

You have a point. Whether feeding from Parkside is possible I don't know.
The Wigan trains via Bolton were always going to be diesel until wiring via Lostock was done whenever that maybe.

Come May 2018 the Blackpool trains should go electric and one of those goes to Victoria and one would have assumed on to Stalybridge.

The recent press release as mentioned contains little detail. I am wondering if in addition to infrastructure delays it also takes account of delays in cascading stock because of GWML delays and therefore the lack of stock for enhanced services.

I believe a proposed Dec 2017 timetable was supposed to be available before Christmas. Until we have that I doubt we will know what is intended

 

[Elecman]

Parkside is no longer a Grid Feeder, the feeder is now Willow Park ATFS.

 

[Greybeard33]

ome May 2018 the Blackpool trains should go electric and one of those goes to Victoria and one would have assumed on to Stalybridge.

Has Northern announced that the Blackpool stopper will definitely continue to go to Victoria once it becomes electric? The franchise agreement requirement only specifies any Manchester station (Victoria, Oxford Road or Piccadilly). There is a requirement for 4tph from Manchester to Hazel Grove (up from 2tph now). Of these 2tph will terminate at Hazel Grove and so logically will both be electric and could both be cross-city from Preston/Blackpool. And there is a requirement for 28 services daily from Bolton to call at Deansgate (which I doubt will include the Blackpool to Airport Northern Connect and so will have to be linked to services on the Stockport line).
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Parkside is no longer a Grid Feeder, the feeder is now Willow Park ATFS.

Thank you for the correction. So my question becomes, could Willow Park temporarily feed Manchester to Euxton via Chorley from December 2017, considering there will be fewer electric trains on the Chat Moss line?

 

[WatcherZero]

Train service requirement from 2019 is 20 services from Manchester Airport to Blackpool of which 18 are via Bolton.

There are 20 Blackpool South line stoppers per day,
The requirement is 70 calling at Poulton and 22 calling at Layton so obviously Blackpool North minimum is 70;

There is a requirement for 20 from Blackpool to Manchester Airport
16 Blackpool to Leeds
15 Blackpool to Liverpool

91 from Blackpool to Preston


Put all that together and it would look like the requirement is 51 long distance, 20 Blackpool South stoppers terminating in Preston and 20 Blackpool North fasts terminating in Preston per day.

Notable exceptions are only 3 services per day calling at Salwick and 54 calling at Kirkham

 

[Elecman]

If the necessary works at Euxton MPATS and Catterall Feeder are completed I don't see why not as it could be fed from Either Willow Park via Ordsall Lane or Catterall via Euxton

 

[billio]

The entire south of Piccadilly will benefit as the removal of the Liverpool-Scarborough service as part of the package has allowed 2-3 extra northern services per hour.
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I think a ticket already exists for this. It is called Manchester CTZL.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/Rail-and-Metrolink-combined.aspx

You can't buy such a ticket in Leeds, although it appears as an option on the ticket machines. Is availability limited to Greater Manchester ?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, only the PTE area.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Starmill]

You can't buy such a ticket in Leeds, although it appears as an option on the ticket machines. Is availability limited to Greater Manchester ?.

Yes, only the PTE area.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As has already been pointed out in #1743, yes you can. It's Leeds to Metrolink City and costs £1.50 on top of the return fare to Manchester Stations.

 

[PR1Berske]

As has already been pointed out in #1743, yes you can. It's Leeds to Metrolink City and costs £1.50 on top of the return fare to Manchester Stations.

I've definitely seen CTLZ tickets here in Preston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Those fancy through Metrolink tickets cannot be used with Railcards - full public fare only.

 

[lejog]

I've definitely seen CTLZ tickets here in Preston.

I've seen them too from Hebden Bridge (and been haughtily told by ticketing experts on this forum that I must be unable to read!). But that's what's printed on the ticket, to buy the ticket from the TVM you have to look for Metrolink City (so don't try typing in manc....). It also makes life easier for ticket office if you ask for Metrolink City , because as the ticketing experts say, that is the designation on ticketing databases.

After that discussion here, I asked a Metrolink ticket checker what rail tickets they accepted and he told me it was Manchester CTLZ only, so there is some sort of logic to the system.
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Those fancy through Metrolink tickets cannot be used with Railcards - full public fare only.

It would be much better for passengers if the silly Metrolink City tickets were got rid off and a simple add ticket (similar to Plusbus) was sold. Surely that wouldn't be too difficult for Metrolink?

 

[WatcherZero]

TVM machines dont always know where they are which affects ticket options and why the regional tickets are generally hidden or restricted (Wigan TVM's wouldnt sell tickets to the Manchester stations group for years, only individual stations because they wouldnt sell Ctrlz).

Metrolink stations tickets not being usable with railcards is a limit of the national tickets, they cant handle not discounting the Metrolink portion of the journey. Its not like the PTE dont want to allow addons, you can even buy them from newsagents.

 

[northwichcat]

I find the biggest problem with Metrolink add-ons is for journeys where a cross-Manchester transfer is or may be required. A ticket where the journey is fully within GM automatically include a Metrolink add-on it e.g. Stockport to Rochdale but if you're one station outside of GM you either have to buy a separate Metrolink ticket or split your ticket at the PTE border.

 

[po8crg]

Tickets with a cross-Manchester transfer by Metrolink should work like † tickets in London, ie "Route Via Manchester Metrolink" - though I think that the need for them will be abolished with Ordsall Chord anyway; if you do all possible transfers by train, then there's no good reason for the TOC to share any revenue with Metrolink.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is this thread intended to concern itself solely with the infrastructural and signalling works that are part of the actual Ordsall Chord construction project?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is this thread intended to concern itself solely with the infrastructural and signalling works that are part of the actual Ordsall Chord construction project?

Paul, are you tactfully asking if we could get back on topic??

 

[Greybeard33]

Tickets with a cross-Manchester transfer by Metrolink should work like † tickets in London, ie "Route Via Manchester Metrolink" - though I think that the need for them will be abolished with Ordsall Chord anyway; if you do all possible transfers by train, then there's no good reason for the TOC to share any revenue with Metrolink.

When the Chord first opens in Dec 2017, the only planned services are the TPE 2tph between the Airport and Middlesbrough/Newcastle. These may well be overcrowded in the peaks. Northern is not required to provide a service until Dec 2019, which will be the 1tph Northern Connect diesel service between the Airport and Bradford.

I think the 5tph Metrolink service might remain a better option for some passengers who need to transfer between Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When does the turnback platform at Rochdale open?
RTT shows no trains terminating there in next month's timetable change.
Off topic I know, but it is related to the planned services through Victoria.

 

[Greybeard33]

When does the turnback platform at Rochdale open?
RTT shows no trains terminating there in next month's timetable change.
Off topic I know, but it is related to the planned services through Victoria.

From the December 2017 timetable change (assuming the Chord is finished and the Bolton line wires are up), Northern is required to provide 5tph between Rochdale and Manchester all day long. This compares with 4tph to Todmorden, of which 3tph continue to Hebden Bridge and 1tph to Burnley and Blackburn. So at least 1tph will terminate at Rochdale - maybe more if there is no capacity to turn back services from the west at Victoria.

By my count Northern will be running a total of 8tph into Victoria from the Bolton and Atherton lines and 1tph from Chester, of which 2tph will continue to Stalybridge. That leaves 7tph to continue to Rochdale or terminate at Victoria. Plus maybe the ATW N Wales service, depending on whether or not there will be a path for it to continue running through Piccadilly to the Airport once the Oxford Road remodelling works start.

 

[Chrisyd]

There is now a floating platform on the Irwell.

Floating Pontoon Ordsall Curve by Chris Davis, on Flickr

 

[rebmcr]

There is now a floating platform on the Irwell.

Will this platform serve northbound, or southbound services? How many carriages can it accommodate?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TVM machines dont always know where they are which affects ticket options and why the regional tickets are generally hidden or restricted (Wigan TVM's wouldnt sell tickets to the Manchester stations group for years, only individual stations because they wouldnt sell Ctrlz).

Metrolink stations tickets not being usable with railcards is a limit of the national tickets, they cant handle not discounting the Metrolink portion of the journey. Its not like the PTE dont want to allow addons, you can even buy them from newsagents.

For those ancient enough, I remember back when Huddersfield had an old Fasticket machine- options from said machine included Manchester CTLZ, and even Bury (via Metrolink).