Are paper timetable booklets pointless these days?

[DarloRich]

This thread ( http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=138467 ) got me thinking - is there really any place, in the 21st century, for printing up loads of paper timetable booklets that almost no body will ever look at?

Are we not just offering a crutch to those unable to join the modern world? It isnt 1879 anymore. We have the ability to carry every timetable in the entire world on a small device in our pockets. Why bother with the paper? Or are they a useful tool when things go wrong or technology breaks down?

Personally I see no need for them and would stop printing them tomorrow. They are, to my mind, a complete waste of money. I can get all of the information via my phone or computer in less time than it takes to open the timetable booklet.

What are your views?

 

[yorksrob]

If we had perfect data coverage all over the country (which we don't), if NRE worked as it should do all of the time (which it doesn't) and if someone invented a so-called smart phone which doesn't grind to a halt after a month through spending all it's energy downloading crap from google/microsoft/apple or have a crappy battery which never works properly in the first place (which they haven't).....

Then, and only then, you might have a point (which you don't).

 

[DarloRich]

If we had perfect data coverage all over the country (which we don't), if NRE worked as it should do all of the time (which it doesn't) and if someone invented a so-called smart phone which doesn't grind to a halt after a month through spending all it's energy downloading crap from google/microsoft/apple or have a crappy battery which never works properly in the first place (which they haven't).....

Then, and only then, you might have a point (which you don't).

My smart phone doesn't grind to a halt after a month through spending all it's energy downloading crap from google/microsoft/apple or have a crappy battery which never works properly in the first place and apart from in the real wilds I tend to have enough data signal strength to run basic applications.

I honestly cant recall the last time I looked at a paper timetable booklet.

 

[yorksrob]

My smart phone doesn't grind to a halt after a month through spending all it's energy downloading crap from google/microsoft/apple or have a crappy battery which never works properly in the first place and apart from in the real wilds I tend to have enough data signal strength to run basic applications.

I honestly cant recall the last time I looked at a paper timetable booklet.

Then you're a fortunate man.

Certainly, there's pretty much no data reception between Gargrave and Appleby.

 

[al78]

and apart from in the real wilds I tend to have enough data signal strength to run basic applications.

Lucky you. Even in the not so wild SE I have occasionally had signal problems, but I see your point that the little pocket timetables may be somewhat redundant now. There are usually timetables pinned on the walls at stations which are pretty good at giving information about what services go where at what time. There is also the national rail enquiries phone number which people without a smartphone or PC can use to obtain travel information including connections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't use them but I don't just want them replaced with a journey planner, as this is less effective for looking at the whole service to make choices for a walk-up journey. So I would still want that format provided as a printable PDF.

 

[Flying Phil]

Speaking as a bit of a luddite I have never used my phone for timetabling info but I do use the computer to book tickets - however, there are lots of (usually) older people who do rely on paper timetables so I wouldn't get rid of them completely.

 

[SeanG]

Whilst I usually use timetables or journey planning apps on my phone, if I want to look at something in a rush or work out something complicated I far prefer proper paper timetables

 

[philjo]

My Dad does not have a mobile phone or a computer (& has never used either) so only uses the printed timetables. (though I do tend to book some ticket online for him but others he just gets from the ticket office) It was annoying when the latest slimmed down version of the national timetable does not include all stations any more.

He uses the BBC red button page 432 for rail delay info - though this weekend it was contradicting itself (e.g. saying there were engineering works so there were alterations on Virgin East coast services between kings Cross and Moorgate !)


I generally prefer to use the printed timetables for planning - especially as some of the areas I stay in when away have no mobile phone signal unless you walk for 10 minutes up the hill (or has a 2G signal only so phone/text is OK but no internet available)

 

[Karl]

I confess to being a bit of a Luddite and still use and appreciate the paper timetable booklets. I don't own a smart phone or even a mobile phone so I have no access to online services when I'm out and about.

 

[PR1Berske]

Paper timetables still have their uses. As has been said above, mobile coverage is patchy and technology can and does fail. Paper doesn't crash or fail to load. Sometimes it's much more convenient to pick up a paper timetable to look at what you need than taking out your phone, uploading the app, typing in what you need, scrolling through different options, signing into WiFi if you need to, and so on and so on.

Paper timetables are a good fallback option. Relying solely on technology could trip you up or let you down.

 

[davetheguard]

"I honestly can't recall the last time I looked at a paper timetable booklet"


I can. Yesterday.

They're very handy, especially for local journeys. Longer distance, I use the internet.

One advantage is you can see "connections" that you can catch, but are too short to register online.

And I like the way they give you a "feel", an overview, of what a given station's train service is like: period of operation; frequency; origin & destination points.

There a place for both paper and internet in my view.

 

[DarloRich]

Lucky you. Even in the not so wild SE I have occasionally had signal problems, but I see your point that the little pocket timetables may be somewhat redundant now. There are usually timetables pinned on the walls at stations which are pretty good at giving information about what services go where at what time. There is also the national rail enquiries phone number which people without a smartphone or PC can use to obtain travel information including connections.

I agree that the poster sized timetables and those posters that show you where you can go from each station have a use. I use them.

I don't use them but I don't just want them replaced with a journey planner, as this is less effective for looking at the whole service to make choices for a walk-up journey. So I would still want that format provided as a printable PDF.

I think the pdf print at home option is perfect. If you want a printed timetable you can print it at your cost.

Speaking as a bit of a luddite I have never used my phone for timetabling info but I do use the computer to book tickets - however, there are lots of (usually) older people who do rely on paper timetables so I wouldn't get rid of them completely.

I would make the paper timetables available on request and see how many actually ask. That said there does need to be a range of accessible format timetables available.

I confess to being a bit of a Luddite and still use and appreciate the paper timetable booklets. I don't own a smart phone or even a mobile phone so I have no access to online services when I'm out and about.

Age is no barrier to learning new things. My Dad ( late 60's) uses his IPAD to plan his bus and train trips out - well if he isnt watching something from Netflicks or Amazon!

 

[glbotu]

While Google's "Transit" option is likely to increase the redundancy of paper timetables, I don't think they're quite redundant yet. Yes age "shouldn't" be a barrier to learning new technology, but many allow it to be. That should, however not prove a barrier to public transport access. Additionally, it's useful to be able to not plan public transport and not have to rely on data (which, while I myself have paid for, others may not have). Also, I'd suggest the cost of printing a few thousand booklets probably doesn't break a sweat on the brow of TOCs and if it keeps old people on trains and out of cars, then it's probably a good thing.

 

[DarloRich]

"I honestly can't recall the last time I looked at a paper timetable booklet"


I can. Yesterday.

They're very handy, especially for local journeys. Longer distance, I use the internet.

One advantage is you can see "connections" that you can catch, but are too short to register online.

And I like the way they give you a "feel", an overview, of what a given stations train service is like: period of operation; frequency; origin & destination points.

There a place for both paper and internet in my view.

But I find RTT does that - horses for courses I guess.

 

[miami]

I don't use them but I don't just want them replaced with a journey planner, as this is less effective for looking at the whole service to make choices for a walk-up journey. So I would still want that format provided as a printable PDF.

The timetabling information is available as open data -- no reason why you couldn't make a site that did that (and perhaps even allow people to pay to get a customised printout)

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that the poster sized timetables and those posters that show you where you can go from each station have a use. I use them.



I think the pdf print at home option is perfect. If you want a printed timetable you can print it at your cost.



I would make the paper timetables available on request and see how many actually ask. That said there does need to be a range of accessible format timetables available.



Age is no barrier to learning new things. My Dad ( late 60's) uses his IPAD to plan his bus and train trips out - well if he isnt watching something from Netflicks or Amazon!

Ah, I see. It's not about paper timetables being obsolete - its about pushing the cost of producing them on to the customer.

At least we're clear about that then.

 

[DarloRich]

Ah, I see. It's not about paper timetables being obsolete - its about pushing the cost of producing them on to the customer.

At least we're clear about that then.

The cost of many things is going that way:

• If I fly I print the ticket at home.
• If I want hard copy receipts from an increasing number of things bought in a shop I print them at home.
• If I buy a ticket for a gig or theater I often print the ticket at home
• If I buy a coach ticket I print it at home
• If i want all the terms and conditions and the actual insurance certificate for my house I print it at home.

It is the way of the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The timetabling information is available as open data -- no reason why you couldn't make a site that did that (and perhaps even allow people to pay to get a customised printout)

Not all of it - the most useful information on LM's printed timetables is the train length.

 

[D6975]

I use both types of timetables. It's not just places like the S&C that don't have internet access, I often travel between Bristol and Southampton and there are several long stretches where the on board wifi gives up the ghost. The other advantage of paper timetables is the speed with which I can look things up, jumping between several printed timetables to check moves is far, far faster that looking up on live timetables.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They're very handy, especially for local journeys. Longer distance, I use the internet.

One advantage is you can see "connections" that you can catch, but are too short to register online.

And I like the way they give you a "feel", an overview, of what a given stations train service is like: period of operation; frequency; origin & destination points.

There a place for both paper and internet in my view.

That's exactly my feelings. The problem with online journey planners is that they aren't quick to use (you have to type in lots of information) and they don't give you a good feel for the service patterns. Although most of the TOCs do provide PDFs with route timetables in, I don't usually find those very useful because they tend to be just PDFs of the paper timetables, and are not designed for easy viewing on the screen.

If I'm going anywhere long-distance, I tend to keep a copy of the paper timetable with me because I find that's by far the best way to get a feel for possible alternative trains if anything goes wrong with the one I'm planning to travel on.

(On the other hand, where online journey planners have the edge is in knowing about any short-term-plan changes to timetables on particular days, which would be very hard to capture on paper timetables that are printed in advance to cover an entire half-year period).

 

[miami]

But I find RTT does that - horses for courses I guess.

Agree, gives a clear indication of the number of stops vs non-stops to show how important a station is, easy to jump to the trains at the next station, easy filtering. Also gives an indication of how reliable a given line is likely to be (what good is a cheeky 8 minute connection when the train's usually run 10 minutes late?)

 

[theblackwatch]

Much prefer a printed timetable than faffing around on my phone. So yes, there is a place. There do however, seem to be some stations which don't like handing them out. Having to queue to get one once, when asked why the weren't put out on the racks, the member of staff replied that "if we do that, people take them"! Maybe a ploy to say there's no demand for them by hiding them away....

 

[KTHV]

I use a combination of solutions - mainly the smartphone for on-the-fly stuff (searching for next service, checking for delays, alternate routes if so etc.) - printed journey planner results for services I will be getting at tweekends if I'm travelling long distance - and paper folding timetables as a backup or if someone else requires advice.

 

[Taunton]

Are we not just offering a crutch to those unable to join the modern world?

I've worked with high tech all my career so am unlikely to fall into this category.

However I find electronic timetable media a nuisance. First off is the "dumbing down" of how it is presented. Not like a regular timetable but having to work through a whole range of tediously stupid questions. Imagine a restaurant that stops having menus. Instead you have to hang around downloading their WonderDinerApp, finding that before you can proceed you must first go through yet another compulsory upgrade from version 11.23 to 11.24, then not displaying any menu. Instead it's a series of questions that the IT team thought so relevant.

How many of you are there?
When did you last eat?
Are you vegetarian?
How much money have you got in your pocket?
Have you ever eaten here before?
Do you want to eat at a specific time (scroll to time)?

Right. This is what you are getting.

This approach would be bad enough if TOCs had not decided in every case to buy their system from a different software company, different interface, having to download an App first, pretending that other train companies don't exist, assuming you know the fine detail of your route, being unable to find Kings Cross because you have to enter London Kings Cross, etc.

We had a discussion here a while back about NR giving up their full National PDF timetable, which "they" had decided was no longer relevant. Eventually they relented and put it back. But I'm 100 times faster whizzing through that for the service I want than some longwinded working through Apps on an operators' website. You do understand those don't work in tunnels, such as when travelling by Underground to a London main station, don't you?

 

[DarloRich]

I rarely use NRE as it is frustrating but find the ability to click through things on other apps, like RTT, very useful and infinitely more user friendly than reading across loads of timetable sheets. I planned two ALR's on RTT use alone. It was really easy.

I don't know why you would need to constantly check train data on the underground. Personally I just memorise the fact that I arrive in terminal station A at time X and leave from Terminal station B at time Y and must travel by underground between the two. Not difficult really is it?

I also see people complaining about apps updating. I never seem to have this problem. What is the issue? Mine update when on wifi automatically.

 

[Clip]

I see no need for them nowadays either - everything is simpler when using the PC or even the phone.

I want to go from X to Y and the website lets me do that and shows me the times and prices available. Granted ill never do an ALR which would probably need proper timetable planning but again that can all be done online.

 

[EM2]

When I planned my 24-hour challenge, paper timetables were invaluable.
Nowadays, when I'm on the concourse and a customer asks me what time the 09:55 arrives at Sittingbourne, I find it quicker to dig out the paper timetable in my pocket and consult that, than to pull out my phone, unlock it, open NRE, enter the info and hope that the 4G is working.

 

[Taunton]

Personally I just memorise the fact that I arrive in terminal station A at time X and leave from Terminal station B at time Y and must travel by underground between the two. Not difficult really is it?

What a simple life. Leave business meeting in Moorgate about 2 hours later than planned, Underground to Paddington, so when is the next one, and if I don't quite make it, when is the one after that.

One of the annoyances of on-line systems is not showing the overall service pattern. Newcastle to London, just shows a series of frequent departure/arrival times. But the full Table 26 in the pdf shows that one starts at Newcastle, so I'll get a comfortable seat, whereas the next is through from Aberdeen and I'll have to stand.

Incidentally, I always find I'm far quicker whizzing through this way than my colleague still staring at the next options on their App. So they crane over to look at mine. Never happened the other way round.

 

[shredder1]

Having one small National timetable is a revolution to carrying around 4 telephone dirctories, London Midland, Southern, Eastern, Western and Scottish Region, yes I`ll stick with my crutch a little longer if you dont mind