Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ungreat]

From the start BedpanDOO was 8 car 317s & 6 Car 313s. We have written to the Select Committee to put it right.

When did 313s run BedPan services then?
"Never" I believe is the answer......

 

[AlterEgo]

Peter, Dyan, Charles? Go on, who are you?

He is none of these people - not nearly as senior as any of these. I managed to work out who XDM is some time ago, but will not reveal their identity because that's not playing ball (and is probably against forum rules).

What I would say is people should be aware there isn't any such thing as true anonymity on the internet, especially when you keep dropping clues!

 

[DT611]

lets confess the dispute is about protectionism ... nothing else.

Nope, it's about retaining a second safety critical and safety trained person aboard the train. Those working on the railway have told you this, so unless you are saying they don't know what they are talking about, then you must accept they know the realities of both environments.

Just off out to get my DDO train without any worries.

It's not a DDO train you will be getting.

After the court case ASLEF took the Michael. They said they would be prepared to agree a Scotrail settlement. Everyone here knows that Scotrail is just drivers opening the doors & guards closing them. It is much worse for Southern & its 500,000 passengers than the present more productive method of working. Not much of an offer!
Incidentally ASLEf's website is repeating the inaccurate statement that BR DOO was only for 4 car 317's. A few weeks ago Mr Whelan even told the select committee that BR DOO was only for 3 car trains,nothing like the present situation he told the committee. Democracy relies on people in authority telling it right. From the start BedpanDOO was 8 car 317s & 6 Car 313s. We have written to the Select Committee to put it right.

So you admit then that having a guard do the doors is the most productive method. Great, glad we agree.

 

[Domh245]

They said they would be prepared to agree a Scotrail settlement. Everyone here knows that Scotrail is just drivers opening the doors & guards closing them.

Isn't that exactly what happens on 377s anyway?

 

[tsr]

Isn't that exactly what happens on 377s anyway?

Yes, that is precisely how conductor operation of 377s works.

 

[highdyke]

Nope, it's about retaining a second safety critical and safety trained person aboard the train. Those working on the railway have told you this, so unless you are saying they don't know what they are talking about, then you must accept they know the realities of both environments.
.

This is the nub of the problem.

Phases like "you have been told" treats other people as idiots.

Everything should really be evidence based rather the using scare tactics, bullying or I know better.

There may well be a wish for two safety critical people on a train, but whether than can be justified is another matter. Some people may prefer the Guard to take responsibility for the doors, but whether they should be dictating that again is another matter.

After Ladbroke grove some drivers wanted double block working. Whether that was remotely practical or just shifted the responsibility onto signalling staff is another matter.

 

[Carlisle]

When did 313s run BedPan services then?
"Never" I believe is the answer......

317s had some problems shortly after entering service (can't remember what ) and some had to be temporarily withdrawn, 313s substituted at this time in preference to retaining the old class 127 DMUs

 

[TimG]

I read recently someone on twitter complained to Southern as the driver was getting out at every stop, walking down to check the doors were clear, closing them and then recommencing the journey with a considerable delay. Of course the train missed PPM but it's the TOCs fault for not ensuring the equipment is acceptable. This sort of delay will increase as more drivers get aware of the overall situation we now face.

I have a feeling it will cost a lot of money to get a lot of the existing DOO area up to scratch. My area health and safety reps are currently evaluating the DOO set up and found several stations not to meet standards. Monitors in poor condition, cameras angled wrong, inadequate lighting, mirrors faulty and blind spots.

Your description sounds like more than what a guard would do.. which makes me think the driver was being bloody minded?

 

[ungreat]

317s had some problems shortly after entering service (can't remember what ) and some had to be temporarily withdrawn, 313s substituted at this time in preference to retaining the old class 127 DMUs

You sure about that?..... St Pancras and Bedford drivers have never,to my knowledge,signed 313s.
Happy to be proven wrong! I've been based at depots on the Midland and ECML since the mid 1980s and have never heard of that.As I said, happy to be proven wrong!
Edit..just found a photo of a 313 at Luton in 1983! I.was wrong

 

[otomous]

Your description sounds like more than what a guard would do.. which makes me think the driver was being bloody minded?

Cries with frustration and bangs head against wall...

He is doing this because he cannot get a suitable view of the whole train from whichever method he has at his disposal for dispatch. If he doesn't, he might injure or kill someone, and then he will be the one in the dock or in jail. He is doing what the RSSB rule book requires him to do.

 

[ungreat]

Your description sounds like more than what a guard would do.. which makes me think the driver was being bloody minded?

Not at all...if we are unable to ascertain as to whether the doors are shut via cctv/monitors/mirrors we revert to "degraded working" and have to manually close all doors individually. Takes time but that's the rules

 

[Bookd]

Not at all...if we are unable to ascertain as to whether the doors are shut via cctv/monitors/mirrors we revert to "degraded working" and have to manually close all doors individually. Takes time but that's the rules

Having done so what is to prevent a passenger at the other end of the train opening a door again?

 

[ungreat]

Having done so what is to prevent a passenger at the other end of the train opening a door again?

We close and then lock them with coach end buttons.....so they can't

 

[Carlisle]

You sure about that?..... St Pancras and Bedford drivers have never,to my knowledge,signed 313s.
Happy to be proven wrong! I've been based at depots on the Midland and ECML since the mid 1980s and have never heard of that.As I said, happy to be proven wrong!
Edit..just found a photo of a 313 at Luton in 1983! I.was wrong

I remember a magazine article at the time on the 317s introduction stating most Bedford drivers had already received training in advance on a class 315 unit whilst Cricklewood drivers had not

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But by considering every possible hypothetical ...you would never get a train out the depot ... be 100% safe, no passenger risks, but no passengers.

Reductio ad absurdum damages your argument far more than it does mine!

When introducing anything you either accept misks or mitigate them. The public have already accepted the risk of DDO ... the busiest train system London Underground is testiment to this ... so do not see your argument holds any water ... lets confess the dispute is about protectionism ... nothing else.

DOO on London Underground proves nothing. The differences in the mainline operating environment compared with LU make comparisons almost meaningless. LU tracks are much more effectively separated from the wider environment, even above ground, meaning it is acceptable for a driver to watch their dispatch monitors after departure. That's simply incompatible with the mainline due to things like level-crossings and track workers. The physical profile of the trains themselves along with lower operating speeds means door closure systems don't need to be as robust on LU allowing the fitting of sensitive door edges which allow trapped passengers to extricate themselves before actually getting dragged, though the Holborn accident showed that even that equipment is not infallible. And LU does not use bodyside cameras but instead has fixed cameras with a much wider view and transmits those images to the appropriate cab. Did I mention CSDE and ASDO? Standard fittings on LU but seemingly a luxury on the mainline where they would be just as beneficial. Even with all these factors in its favour LU still has to have platform staff to assist with the dispatch process at busy stations. So DOO can indeed be done safely given the right environment and the willingness to provide the right equipment. If only that were the case on the mainline.

As for public acceptance, I don't believe the public was ever asked.

Just off out to get my DDO train without any worries.

You shouldn't be worried. Any passenger having bought their ticket should be able to trust the TOCs/Network Rail to ensure their safety. Yet DOO on the mainline is less safe, even if only marginally so, than guard controlled dispatch. Its justification can therefore only be on the grounds of cost reduction which means no second person on the train. The reduction in safety is very small but the reduction in customer service is significant. And don't try to be a disabled passenger using such a service because you are clearly not welcome.

 

[BestWestern]

After the court case ASLEF took the Michael. They said they would be prepared to agree a Scotrail settlement. Everyone here knows that Scotrail is just drivers opening the doors & guards closing them. It is much worse for Southern & its 500,000 passengers than the present more productive method of working. Not much of an offer!
Incidentally ASLEf's website is repeating the inaccurate statement that BR DOO was only for 4 car 317's. A few weeks ago Mr Whelan even told the select committee that BR DOO was only for 3 car trains,nothing like the present situation he told the committee. Democracy relies on people in authority telling it right. From the start BedpanDOO was 8 car 317s & 6 Car 313s. We have written to the Select Committee to put it right.

Damaged pride alert; ouch! How insulted you must all have felt to have gone chasing Aslef again, only to face total humiliation, publically, and end up looking utterly desperate. And what's this now, Evening Standard headlines revealing your lies about 'Conductor sickness'?? Oh dear oh dear, is it all unravelling chap?!

And you've written to a Select Committee to change a bit of wording on Aslef's website, are times really that hard?! I think you all need a little holiday, you're starting to embarrass yourselves!

 

[sarahj]

Conductors can be handy. Tonight a 313 failed at Falmer due to loss of air. While the driver was dealing with the situation and then going down the line to put down the dets, the fully trained conductor was dealing with the punters, getting them onto alternative transport, keeping the train safe while the driver was down the line and helping out with other safety aspects, including going down on the line when needed.

Meanwhile if a non route trained, non safety critical OBS had been there.

 

[grid56126]

You sure about that?..... St Pancras and Bedford drivers have never,to my knowledge,signed 313s.
Happy to be proven wrong! I've been based at depots on the Midland and ECML since the mid 1980s and have never heard of that.As I said, happy to be proven wrong!
Edit..just found a photo of a 313 at Luton in 1983! I.was wrong

Note: For the benefit of our members unable to see the images above; they show class 313s at various locations on the Midland Mainline between St Pancras & Bedford.

 

[ungreat]

M

Evidently the EDIT went unnoticed.....!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Conductors can be handy. Tonight a 313 failed at Falmer due to loss of air. While the driver was dealing with the situation and then going down the line to put down the dets, the fully trained conductor was dealing with the punters, getting them onto alternative transport, keeping the train safe while the driver was down the line and helping out with other safety aspects, including going down on the line when needed.

Meanwhile if a non route trained, non safety critical OBS had been there.

Wheres the LIKE button on here. Hats off to the conductor on that service. Doing the safety critical job they are NEEDED for.
Just waiting for the "I could have done that/GSMR/DOO is lovely/mobile phones/but how does that prove/never see a conductor/RMT...ASLEF are extreme/gang to start fizzing as per usual....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By the way...after 30 years driving and 17 of those DOO I've had to look up DDO that seems to feature in this thread a bit...Closest I could get was Dungeons and Dragons Online...
Can't say I have seen many dragon slaying trains of late but I don't get out much admittedly...

 

[LowLevel]

It's not that long since I spent 2 hours in a rural station car park organising taxis etc for my passengers including school kids and people in need of medication with the driver eventually having had to take the train ECS without us following a fatality. That was after being stuck on the line for an additional 40 minutes on a train with no welfare facilities before we set back to a station. It's all gravy until that's the time your train nipped off without it's second crew member to avoid delay. Another colleague had to do the same at Eccles Road which isn't exactly the centre of civilisation.

We also apparently had a windscreen explode on a unit the other week when a bird hit it, which showered the driver with glass, slashing his face up (luckily he wears glasses or it could have been far worse) and causing some concern that he'd inhaled glass fragments. That would have been great to deal with on a single manned train. The driver bleeding heavily from head wounds doesn't tend to instill confidence in a stranded train. That quite apart from them potentially having to manage everything themselves.

 

[ungreat]

It's not that long since I spent 2 hours in a rural station car park organising taxis etc for my passengers including school kids and people in need of medication with the driver eventually having had to take the train ECS without us following a fatality. That was after being stuck on the line for an additional 40 minutes on a train with no welfare facilities before we set back to a station. It's all gravy until that's the time your train nipped off without it's second crew member to avoid delay. Another colleague had to do the same at Eccles Road which isn't exactly the centre of civilisation.

We also apparently had a windscreen explode on a unit the other week when a bird hit it, which showered the driver with glass, slashing his face up (luckily he wears glasses or it could have been far worse) and causing some concern that he'd inhaled glass fragments. That would have been great to deal with on a single manned train. The driver bleeding heavily from head wounds doesn't tend to instill confidence in a stranded train. That quite apart from them potentially having to manage everything themselves.

Again...like button needed

 

[LowLevel]

Let's not also forget things like the train full of drunks that failed last thing on a Saturday night where the driver ended up being taken away by road by the MOM to fetch a rescue unit, leaving the guard in charge on their own until the single BTP constable for tens of miles turned up which made a fat lot of difference.

All these occurrences are statistically very unlikely but seem to occur with monotonous regularity. We had a fatality recently and owing to transport issues it took the driver manager about 3 hours to get to the train to shift it. Once again the guard attracting significant praise in dispatches for caring for their driver and passengers.

 

[TheEdge]

None of these things are acceptable facts because the DfT says they don't count because statistics.

 

[Astradyne]

M
Evidently the EDIT went unnoticed.....!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wheres the LIKE button on here. Hats off to the conductor on that service. Doing the safety critical job they are NEEDED for.
Just waiting for the "I could have done that/GSMR/DOO is lovely/mobile phones/but how does that prove/never see a conductor/RMT...ASLEF are extreme/gang to start fizzing as per usual....

So what would of happened. oh yes I have forgot without the guard all passengers would have recieved instant death or life changing injuries ... but in the real world, nothing would have changed

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Conductors can be handy. Tonight a 313 failed at Falmer due to loss of air. While the driver was dealing with the situation and then going down the line to put down the dets, the fully trained conductor was dealing with the punters, getting them onto alternative transport, keeping the train safe while the driver was down the line and helping out with other safety aspects, including going down on the line when needed.

Meanwhile if a non route trained, non safety critical OBS had been there.

given the guard was on the train or on the platform managing the pasengers i'm not sure what the issue is ...

but then again as has been in all 500 + plus pages of this thread fact,s what 'safety critical ' actually means rather than it;s casual bandying aobut to mean any member of training crew with a PTS and a shroud to wave ...

 

[Tomnick]

So what would of happened. oh yes I have forgot without the guard all passengers would have recieved instant death or life changing injuries ... but in the real world, nothing would have changed

Judging by the industry's experience with failed DOO trains, someone would have started leading an uncontrolled evacuation after a short wait - with every potential to receive instant death or life changing injuries. At best, it'd mean that it'd take much longer to clear the line, delaying other passengers for much longer than they'd otherwise be delayed for, but that's what you'd expect from today's selfish society if there's no-one in authority to keep control of the situation.

 

[sarahj]

So what would of happened. oh yes I have forgot without the guard all passengers would have recieved instant death or life changing injuries ... but in the real world, nothing would have changed

No, but you end up with angry, lost ,confused punters, who then overwhelm the driver trying to get going, or make the train safe, and angry,lost ,confused punters then do things like detrain onto the track, (not all the train was on the platform, in fact, just the front door to the cab, just...), perhaps some might get too angry.... Instead you got punters who were, according to the conductor involved, 'great, understanding and no problem', and who within mins of the train failing, were being moved off the train and alt arrangements being made.

 

[AlterEgo]

Judging by the industry's experience with failed DOO trains, someone would have started leading an uncontrolled evacuation after a short wait - with every potential to receive instant death or life changing injuries. At best, it'd mean that it'd take much longer to clear the line, delaying other passengers for much longer than they'd otherwise be delayed for, but that's what you'd expect from today's selfish society if there's no-one in authority to keep control of the situation.

Uncontrolled passenger evacuations also happen on trains with guards.

 

[IKB]

Uncontrolled passenger evacuations also happen on trains with guards.

Yes. And in such circumstances the guard can alert the signaller who can then block other lines/switch off power to minimise risk. I doubt passengers on a DOO train are going to give the signaller a bell before they decide to self-evacuate are they! Jesus wept.

 

[highdyke]

Or maybe the driver could? People also don't evacuate after a short wait, urban or rural areas. Sorry to pop people's balloon on this, but they also don't see railway staff as authority. After a few hours, if they want to get out they will. If fire breaks out, they'll get out straight away, even if the Queen was doing a spot of guarding to keep her hand in with the masses.