GTR to be stripped of franchise? DfT to take over according to RBI

[ChiefPlanner]

Thameslink Sunday services are now advertised as an hourly service Bedford - St Pancras only ......with buses to / from the GN .....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

we are wondering why the ASLEF and Southern/Abellio talks are taking so long and reckon if this franchise talk is anything to do with it.

They are on Day 6 of negotiations, so hopefully they are working on the small print of an agreement.
That's "hard pounding" by any standards.
I should think the franchise rumours will be unimportant unless the talks break down.
The DfT are hardly likely to torpedo the talks at this stage, especially if services are improving.
Abellio are only facilitating the talks with the TUC, they are not party to the negotiations.

 

[SprinterMan]

Basically, from what I've been made aware of, GTR told their staff that it is a rumour and that they contacted the DfT, whereupon they denied they have plans to take away the TSGN contract from GTR.

If calling it a "rumour" and passing on the DfT's message is equal to denying the possibility, GTR have done so. If it isn't, they haven't.

This is not the first time I have heard about this type of plan being drawn up, and my gut feeling is that it won't be the last. The "other forum" (WNXX) has some interesting comment.

I can confirm that this is correct, we were emailed yesterday.

 

[Hadders]

As part of the 2014 franchise agreement, there was a commitment to improve, St Albans, Luton and Stevenage stations. Does any body know how far this has been done ?

I don't know about St Albans or Luton but Stevenage was tarted up in the dying days of FCC (new PIS (including a floor mounted one in the booking hall that takes up excessive space in a cramped area - why they couldn't fit a wall mounted one as previously I don't know), couple of extra retail units, handrails painted pink, some resurfacing of platforms). I noticed that the handrails have been painted yellow during the last few weeks and I believe new signage will be installed soon.

Thameslink Sunday services are now advertised as an hourly service Bedford - St Pancras only ......with buses to / from the GN .....

What a shambles. I bet they won't even strengthen any GN services either. I bet they'll still send out 4-car 387s.....

 

[OFFDN]

we are wondering why the ASLEF and Southern/Abellio talks are taking so long and reckon if this franchise talk is anything to do with it.

On the day the talks were announced, just before the news went public, senior management indicated that ASLEF seemed to be calling the talks to try and find 'a way out'.

This would perhaps explain the independent Abellio director, to iron out all remaining issues before reaching the agreement.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are any GTR depots used by both the TL & GN side of the franchise and the Southern side of the franchise or are they all one side of the franchise only?

 

[bb21]

In my view strike action should not be classed as 'force majeure'. The term implies, and should mean, events entirely outwith the control of the operator - strikes are not (no matter the rights and wrongs of the action).

You are clearly inexperienced.

I give you three words: unofficial industrial action.

There are many other things along similar lines that are outside the TOC's control, but I won't bore you with all the details.

 

[Skimble19]

Thameslink Sunday services are now advertised as an hourly service Bedford - St Pancras only ......with buses to / from the GN .....

This is correct. Customers on GN are now being warned to expect services to be extremely busy. I personally hope services are strengthened otherwise it's going to be a nightmare; a lot of GN services are already full and standing on Sundays without TL passengers joining in!

 

[Failed Unit]

This is correct. Customers on GN are now being warned to expect services to be extremely busy. I personally hope services are strengthened otherwise it's going to be a nightmare; a lot of GN services are already full and standing on Sundays without TL passengers joining in!

That is a little much to ask considering GTR don't actually care about customer service and they are more than happy to have passengers left behind on the platforms (as already happens since they introduced the 387s). They don't lose any revenue if passengers can't travel afterall so what interest to they have in strengthening services?

 

[Skimble19]

That is a little much to ask considering GTR don't actually care about customer service and they are more than happy to have passengers left behind on the platforms (as already happens since they introduced the 387s). They don't lose any revenue if passengers can't travel afterall so what interest to they have in strengthening services?

Well they're currently planning on strengthening the inner services to 6 car instead of 3 car all day, hopefully some strengthening will happen to the outers too. It's not perfect but it's better than nothing. You have to remember that while they may not lose revenue they do have to pay for delays, something that severely crowded trains cause a lot of due to the extended dwell times at stations.

 

[daikilo]

You are clearly inexperienced.

I give you three words: unofficial industrial action.

There are many other things along similar lines that are outside the TOC's control, but I won't bore you with all the details.

As I have said elsewhere, my understanding is that strike action will not be found to be a case of force majeure if said action is the result of bone-fide negotiations between the parties (Sealink 1987).

I believe it could be force majeure if for instance unions were to call a general strike on a subject not linked directly to a TOC (e.g. possibly a national minimum wage).

 

[Joe Paxton]

Thameslink Sunday services are now advertised as an hourly service Bedford - St Pancras only ......with buses to / from the GN .....

Also nothing on the Sutton loop, nothing through the core...

Reduced Thameslink service on Sunday 29 January

An unavailability of train crew and planned engineering work mean that a severely limited Thameslink service will be running on Sunday 29 January. Customers are advised to use alternative routes to travel, wherever possible.

The following alterations will apply:

* An hourly service will run between London St Pancras International and Bedford. Services are expected to be very busy and customers are advised to use alternative routes where possible.
* After 19:50 there will be no Thameslink service from Bedford to London and after 21:18 there will be no Thameslink service from London to Bedford until Monday morning.
* Trains will not run between London St Pancras International and London Blackfriars. You will need to use London Underground or London Bus services (Route number 45 and 63) to cross from London St Pancras International to London Blackfriars.
* Trains will not run to or from Sutton / Wimbledon. You may use your ticket on Southern services from London Victoria towards Sutton.
* Trains between West Hampstead and Sevenoaks will run between London Blackfriars and Sevenoaks only.
* Trains between Brighton and London Bridge will run between London Bridge and Three Bridges only.

 

[asylumxl]

I don't think this will actually happen at all.

The DfT has already moved the goal posts for GTR a few times in terms of their performance targets, targets that they well and truly missed. They're in it for the long haul.

Besides, GoVia is very good at distancing itself from its various sub-brands. They'd probably just fire the current management, give the operator a different name and pretend it's a whole new company.

 

[jon0844]

It's quite clear that it was very sensible for Govia to keep its logo off signs and posters. I am sure a lot of people don't know who exactly is behind the TSGN contract, or that it's the same company as SET and others. I'd guess far more people than do know.

If anything, many rail users will just think it's run by the French Government given the way the unions have portrayed things!

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's quite clear that it was very sensible for Govia to keep its logo off signs and posters. I am sure a lot of people don't know who exactly is behind the TSGN contract, or that it's the same company as SET and others. I'd guess far more people than do know.

Govia has never featured their corporate branding, logo or name on any of their public facing TOC materials or trains (and this applied to their 1997-2006 Thameslink franchise too).

Govia part-parent company Go-Ahead, unlike other bus companies, goes in for local company names and branding, though liveries and other publicity material do feature the legend "part of the Go-Ahead group".

 

[Failed Unit]

Well they're currently planning on strengthening the inner services to 6 car instead of 3 car all day, hopefully some strengthening will happen to the outers too. It's not perfect but it's better than nothing. You have to remember that while they may not lose revenue they do have to pay for delays, something that severely crowded trains cause a lot of due to the extended dwell times at stations.

I doubt it as they will claim that they can't extend the trains because of the local stations between Royston and Cambridge are only 4 coaches, or that it will ruin the maintence regime.

Do GTR management know how badly overcrowded the trains are at weekends? Today both of the ones I used the driver decided to declassify 1st (if they can on the 387s). Even if they don't want to extend to 8 coaches all the way to Cambridge / Peterborough it is a shame they don't run some extras between Welwyn Garden City and London Kings Cross. (The Moorgate ones don't really help as they are both slower and you need to change not really good for a customer who wants to go to Kings Cross)

They managed to keep the service on time, but the dwell times at WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar are not good at the moment as people try to squeeze on.

 

[Richardr]

Thameslink Sunday services are now advertised as an hourly service Bedford - St Pancras only ......with buses to / from the GN .....

What is the real reason for this? Normally if they can't go through the core there is a very reliable 15 minute service into St Pancras from the north, not a 60 minute service.



I assume the shortage of drivers has an underlying reason?

 

[Skimble19]

What is the real reason for this? Normally if they can't go through the core there is a very reliable 15 minute service into St Pancras from the north, not a 60 minute service.



I assume the shortage of drivers has an underlying reason?

Sent from mTalk

This particular Sunday there is a considerably larger number of TL drivers off than usual. I wouldn't expect this to be an ongoing issue (not to this severity anyway!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry to enter late into this thread, but anyone clarify how much truth there is in the supposition of the title thread and also if there has been any formal statement given by the DfT on the matter of a time period when this may be seen to occur.

 

[EMU Driver]

We were all emailed at GTR saying this wasn't the case

 

[jon0844]

We were all emailed at GTR saying this wasn't the case

I wouldn't expect anything else, whether it's true or not.

I would say that it seems a little unfair. Despite GTRs incompetence in many areas, the bulk of the problems stems from implementing something the contract forces Govia to do - with everyone knowing it would cause problems with the unions.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wouldn't expect anything else, whether it's true or not.

I would say that it seems a little unfair. Despite GTRs incompetence in many areas, the bulk of the problems stems from implementing something the contract forces Govia to do - with everyone knowing it would cause problems with the unions.

I can't comment on the Southern side, but all we see on the Great Northern side is management incompetance. The cancellations we have I understand are because they have ****ed off the staff so much that they are chosing not to put in additional hours - and who can blame them.

 

[JaJaWa]

It's quite clear that it was very sensible for Govia to keep its logo off signs and posters. I am sure a lot of people don't know who exactly is behind the TSGN contract, or that it's the same company as SET and others. I'd guess far more people than do know.

If anything, many rail users will just think it's run by the French Government given the way the unions have portrayed things!

I was reading something last year that the vast majority of people that use TfL services don't know what Transport for London is, with someone surveyed thinking they were just responsible for the safety posters on escalators, so no way do people know that Govia runs these services!

 

[infobleep]

Also nothing on the Sutton loop, nothing through the core...

What percentage is lack of staff and what percentage is engineering works? Clearly there would be some overlap as staff not needed due to engineering works might have caused a train to be cancelled.

Surely GTR should be putting out a presentation release criticising staff for not working their overtime. [I'm joking by the way].

 

[bb21]

That is a little much to ask considering GTR don't actually care about customer service and they are more than happy to have passengers left behind on the platforms (as already happens since they introduced the 387s). They don't lose any revenue if passengers can't travel afterall so what interest to they have in strengthening services?

Because short-formation is something DfT closely monitor?

 

[bb21]

As I have said elsewhere, my understanding is that strike action will not be found to be a case of force majeure if said action is the result of bone-fide negotiations between the parties (Sealink 1987).

I believe it could be force majeure if for instance unions were to call a general strike on a subject not linked directly to a TOC (e.g. possibly a national minimum wage).

Each case is considered on its own merits, and I can very confidently confirm that DfT are willing to consider industrial actions as force majeure events sometimes. It will very much depend on how you construct your arguments and what evidence you can supply. It will also depend on how much the TOC can foresee the actions and what type of mitigation was deployed.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because short-formation is something DfT closely monitor?

But are they short formed in the DfTs opinion? They are diagrammed for 4 cars because anything longer won't fit on the platforms at between Cambridge and Royston.

They are seriously overcrowded and have bieng for a long while - normally leaving people behind at Potters Bar. GTR rail by putting the 387s on them have reduced the seating capacity by 69 seats per service. But it is still a 4 coach train. I would say they are short formed, but would the DfT as they state at the weekends they will run 4 coaches and that is exactly what they are doing. Unless the service is specified by the number of seats offered, which in that case since they introduced the 387s they are clearly breaking.

Time to write to GTR with all the services I have used since Christmas on the weekends where people have got left behind at Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar. They will probably respond with we are using all the stock we can, or the train lengths are as we agreed with DfT ignoring the fact they are leaving passengers behind. I will then forward the response to the DfT to ask how they consider this as an acceptable situation considering they specify the contract and perhaps they should obeserve the serious overcrowding themselves at weekends. See what happens. I know relief is in sight when the 700s take over, but nobody really knows when that is going to happen.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

But are they short formed in the DfTs opinion? They are diagrammed for 4 cars because anything longer won't fit on the platforms at between Cambridge and Royston.

Are any of the stations between Cambridge and Royston equipped for ASDO at all?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think so, going southbound they use SDO already on peak services.

Going Northbound I understand it isn't possible as because of a level crossing they would need to have the rear 4 only on the platform and apparently it is not acceptable to have 4 the front four unplatformed on a DOO train (that is my understanding I am sure one of the drivers will correct me if it is incorrect)

Not sure if another solution would be to change the stops to the faster service, but then you will have the same issue at Stevenage with people left behind forced to use a slower service (but at least it is going to the same destintation)

I would also be interested if not stopping at the smaller stations would be less disruptive to number of people than leaving people behind at the larger stations, increasing dwell time etc. That would make interesting press, the TOC would need to admit that things were bad before but the new trains have made the situation impossible...

 

[Hadders]

in times of disruption Great Northern have run 8-car services at weekends and not called at the village stations, instead running a bus service to them from Royston.

Not ideal but probably the least worst option. Alternatively they could run additional Peterborough services (as these will be the ones mainly impacted by the Thameslink debacle) but I doubt they will have the drivers for this.