Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[BestWestern]

So how do you think TfL have operated through the Chilterns to Amersham or the Essex wilds to Epping for the last 30 years. Or BR through the empty fens to Kings Lynn.

On a wing and a prayer, as is the norm with most DOO operations.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I can't help but notice that National Rail Enquiries is currently saying:

An unavailability of train crew and planned engineering work mean that a severely limited Thameslink service will be running on Sunday 29 January.

There then follows a lengthy list of service alterations, many of which are not down to engineering work.

Excuse me if I have missed something, but surely with Thameslink being a DOO service, and therefore operating in this heavenly nirvana without these nasty troublesome Guards not turning up for work and causing cancellations, so much promoted by some posters, how can it be possible to have cancellations due to lack of train crew?

 

[theironroad]

I can't help but notice that National Rail Enquiries is currently saying:



There then follows a lengthy list of service alterations, many of which are not down to engineering work.

Excuse me if I have missed something, but surely with Thameslink being a DOO service, and therefore operating in this heavenly nirvana without these nasty troublesome Guards not turning up for work and causing cancellations, so much promoted by some posters, how can it be possible to have cancellations due to lack of train crew?

The only thing you have missed is the term 'train crew' is often used to cover both guards and drivers. So in a doo case, it is a lack of drivers.

 

[ar10642]

I can't help but notice that National Rail Enquiries is currently saying:



There then follows a lengthy list of service alterations, many of which are not down to engineering work.

Excuse me if I have missed something, but surely with Thameslink being a DOO service, and therefore operating in this heavenly nirvana without these nasty troublesome Guards not turning up for work and causing cancellations, so much promoted by some posters, how can it be possible to have cancellations due to lack of train crew?

There have been problems with driver availability on Thameslink since FCC days. Not related to the RMT striking every 10 minutes and causing cancellations because of that.

 

[ar10642]

On a wing and a prayer, as is the norm with most DOO operations.

If it was as terribly dangerous as you claim, it would have been changed by now.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The only thing you have missed is the term 'train crew' is often used to cover both guards and drivers. So in a doo case, it is a lack of drivers.

There have been problems with driver availability on Thameslink since FCC days. Not related to the RMT striking every 10 minutes and causing cancellations because of that.

But some posters on here are always saying that having DOO solves all the problems of cancellations due to staff shortages, and that it is some form of heavenly nirvana where all is well.

So with DOO you still get cancellations.

 

[Robertj21a]

But some posters on here are always saying that having DOO solves all the problems of cancellations due to staff shortages, and that it is some form of heavenly nirvana where all is well.

So with DOO you still get cancellations.

I would have thought that any service will get cancelled if there isn't a driver !

Not sure why DOO has anything to do with it.

 

[wfrank]

So with DOO you still get cancellations.

Obviously,no one said otherwise. But with DOO you only get cancellations from Network Rail failures,missing drivers & trains faults. If DOO were abolished,god forbid, then you would get trains cancelled & people stranded on platforms from the three causes above, plus missing or striking guards. That is why I thoughtfully support DOO. And announce it, despite the abuse we pro DOO people get from one poster here. When all other arguments fail,a few people abuse rather than admit they are wrong.

 

[wfrank]

The 313s can't run doo can they?

Yes. Under Silverlink & London Underground I am told 313s were all DOO on the Watford junction to Euston dc route. And their unit brothers are DOO Letchworth to Moorgate. They need mirrors & platform monitors & the same person tells me internal cameras could be fitted but as they are beyond their sell by date it won't happen.

 

[Tomnick]

Obviously,no one said otherwise. But with DOO you only get cancellations from Network Rail failures,missing drivers & trains faults...

...and defective DOO equipment.

 

[Tomnick]

The 313s can't run doo can they?

Yes. Under Silverlink & London Underground I am told 313s were all DOO on the Watford junction to Euston dc route. And their unit brothers are DOO Letchworth to Moorgate. They need mirrors & platform monitors & the same person tells me internal cameras could be fitted but as they are beyond their sell by date it won't happen.

I understand that platform monitors and/or mirrors aren't allowed under current standards (for new schemes). So no.

 

[WatcherZero]

...and defective DOO equipment.

Which would be a train fault even if the safety equipment wasn't being used for DOO purposes.

 

[Tomnick]

Which would be a train fault even if the safety equipment wasn't being used for DOO purposes.

A train fault, maybe, but a train fault that wouldn't have any effect on the operation of the train if not being worked DOO.

 

[Llanigraham]

Obviously,no one said otherwise. But with DOO you only get cancellations from Network Rail failures,missing drivers & trains faults. If DOO were abolished,god forbid, then you would get trains cancelled & people stranded on platforms from the three causes above, plus missing or striking guards. That is why I thoughtfully support DOO. And announce it, despite the abuse we pro DOO people get from one poster here. When all other arguments fail,a few people abuse rather than admit they are wrong.

There has been just as much abuse from the pro-DOO side!
And the Mods have stated several times that such matters should be reported to them.

 

[BestWestern]

I would have thought that any service will get cancelled if there isn't a driver !

Not sure why DOO has anything to do with it.

The point being (deliberately?) missed by yourself and at least one fellow poster, is that GTR has spent the past however long preaching that evil Guards must die because they are the sole cause of every problem on god's earth (I'm using GTR-level exaggeration and spin there), and yet here we are with a GTR operation cancelling large chunks of the service due to a lack of Drivers (but doing their best to tell big fat lies and blame something else, obviously). Surely it cannot be that GTR is, in fact, a total pile of crap, and all their hot air about hot vital it was to get rid of Guards was nothing but lies?

 

[Chrisgr31]

So how do you think TfL have operated through the Chilterns to Amersham or the Essex wilds to Epping for the last 30 years. Or BR through the empty fens to Kings Lynn. In fact most places around London have been served safely by DOO trains for years. If you think Mayor Khan,who runs TfL, will reinstate guards if he were to take over Southern, sweet dreams!

Well East Grinstead passengers were most miffed on Thursday to find themselves turfed off a non-working DOO train at East Croydon, especially as another one had overtaken whilst theirs was rebooting.

As a matter of interest do you advocate getting rid of the fire brigade or ambulance service on the grounds that the vast majority of the population never need them?

Chances are one day there will be an incident on a DOO train where it will be clear how helpful a 2nd member of staff would have been.

 

[yorkie]

As a matter of interest do you advocate getting rid of the fire brigade or ambulance service on the grounds that the vast majority of the population never need them?

That's not a sensible analogy! (if you must use such an analogy, it would actually be whether or not we need a member of ambulance or fire brigade staff on each train? Yes, it would be desirable, but not unsafe not to)

 

[EMU Driver]

That's not a sensible analogy! (if you must use such an analogy, it would actually be whether or not we need a member of ambulance or fire brigade staff on each train? Yes, it would be desirable, but not unsafe not to)

I think it's a very sensible analogy personally.....taking away a crew member who can perform safety duties and reducing them to being nothing more than a person in a branded coat and leaving a two crew job to one member of crew is ,frankly, stupidity and will hopefully backfire on Govia

 

[pompeyfan]

I know ambulances are off topic, and I may well embarrass myself here, but from what I understand most ambulances carry 3 crew? An EMT plus 2 paramedics... what we're going to do is scrap the EMT, and give be one of the paramedics all the jobs of the EMT too. Would this be a fair and accurate comparison to what DfT are doing with their guards.

As an aside it would appear DOO now operates on to Portsea Island. Lots of services running without an OBS. Shock....

 

[ar10642]

The point being (deliberately?) missed by yourself and at least one fellow poster, is that GTR has spent the past however long preaching that evil Guards must die because they are the sole cause of every problem on god's earth (I'm using GTR-level exaggeration and spin there), and yet here we are with a GTR operation cancelling large chunks of the service due to a lack of Drivers (but doing their best to tell big fat lies and blame something else, obviously). Surely it cannot be that GTR is, in fact, a total pile of crap, and all their hot air about hot vital it was to get rid of Guards was nothing but lies?

I was pretty agnostic on this before and thought guards might as well stay, and thought any moves to remove them were not worth the bother. That was before the repeated strikes by the RMT with no regard for the chaos they were causing to people's lives, and whether the strikes were even working.

Now I'm looking forward to them not being able to cause that chaos, and if DOO is the way to achieve that then so be it.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know ambulances are off topic, and I may well embarrass myself here, but from what I understand most ambulances carry 3 crew? An EMT plus 2 paramedics... what we're going to do is scrap the EMT, and give be one of the paramedics all the jobs of the EMT too. Would this be a fair and accurate comparison to what DfT are doing with their guards.

As an aside it would appear DOO now operates on to Portsea Island. Lots of services running without an OBS. Shock....

Don't know about your area, but around here all our Ambulances have 2 crew only, mostly both Paramedics. Rapid Response vehicles are single-manned by Paramedics.

 

[tsr]

I was pretty agnostic on this before and thought guards might as well stay, and thought any moves to remove them were not worth the bother. That was before the repeated strikes by the RMT with no regard for the chaos they were causing to people's lives, and whether the strikes were even working.

Now I'm looking forward to them not being able to cause that chaos, and if DOO is the way to achieve that then so be it.

That argument is a bit of a vicious circle which completely ignores the fact that the conductors didn't pick the fight in the first place. Indeed some were also dismayed, probably in equal measure, by both the OBS roles proposed and subsequently implemented (coming, as they did, after frantic efforts by crews over many years to prevent cancellations due to the squeeze on rosters) and the RMT strike action (which came as a massive surge in militant behaviour after doing virtually nothing comparable in reaction to the imposition of 377s years before, with bodyside cameras and the potential issues that could arise).

 

[the sniper]

I was pretty agnostic on this before and thought guards might as well stay, and thought any moves to remove them were not worth the bother. That was before the repeated strikes by the RMT with no regard for the chaos they were causing to people's lives, and whether the strikes were even working.

Now I'm looking forward to them not being able to cause that chaos, and if DOO is the way to achieve that then so be it.

I don't really get this as an argument. If they hadn't tried to get rid of Guards, particularly in the way they did, there wouldn't have been any chaos... Well, beyond the usual chaos GTR would have got themselves into even without this dispute. For negligible benefit to the passenger, the DfT chose to start a war.

At the end of the day, there are many people who view this as the endgame, this is the hill to die on. Once the grade is gone and you've lost operational responsibility, bend over and be prepared to be shafted for the rest of your railway career, until you leave, go driving or get made redundant. Decades from now rail staff will lament that even more wasn't done to resist DOO now, like how people now lament the failure of the action in 1982.

As for "whether the strikes were even working", it'll be years before we can judge the impact across the country.

 

[AlterEgo]

nothing more than a person in a branded coat

If you said this about any other grade in any other thread people would be rushing to tell you off for saying something like that.

 

[Robertj21a]

The point being (deliberately?) missed by yourself and at least one fellow poster, is that GTR has spent the past however long preaching that evil Guards must die because they are the sole cause of every problem on god's earth (I'm using GTR-level exaggeration and spin there), and yet here we are with a GTR operation cancelling large chunks of the service due to a lack of Drivers (but doing their best to tell big fat lies and blame something else, obviously). Surely it cannot be that GTR is, in fact, a total pile of crap, and all their hot air about hot vital it was to get rid of Guards was nothing but lies?

I wasn't missing any point, just stating the rather obvious point that any service will get cancelled if it doesn't have a driver !

To me, your wild exaggeration is counter-productive as there's never been any indication from GTR that guards are the sole cause of the problems. It doesn't help anybody if you go around distorting the facts.

 

[XDM]

The point being (deliberately?) missed by yourself and at least one fellow poster, is that GTR has spent the past however long preaching that evil Guards must die because they are the sole cause of every problem on god's earth (I'm using GTR-level exaggeration and spin there), and yet here we are with a GTR operation cancelling large chunks of the service due to a lack of Drivers (but doing their best to tell big fat lies and blame something else, obviously). Surely it cannot be that GTR is, in fact, a total pile of crap, and all their hot air about hot vital it was to get rid of Guards was nothing but lies?

What is this tosh & drivel you continue to spout about evil guards? Southern would not dream of saying it. It is your invention to stir the pot. Please try to develop your kind side.
This coming week could be very important. ASLEF & GTR have been really responsible & probably taken much flack from each other,thinly disguised as joshing,during these painful meetings.
Fingers crossed that they develop a solution that could be a template for English/Welsh DOO. But don't hold your breath. And do not frighten the few Southern OBS who might naively fall for your postings. They have families & aspirations & none of them are evil as you enjoyed implying they are viewed.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Which would be a train fault even if the safety equipment wasn't being used for DOO purposes.

Not necessarily. It could be faulty on platform monitors.

 

[Goldfish62]

On a wing and a prayer, as is the norm with most DOO operations.

What an utterly ridiculous comment. And I'm anti extension of DOO.

 

[BestWestern]

I was pretty agnostic on this before and thought guards might as well stay, and thought any moves to remove them were not worth the bother. That was before the repeated strikes by the RMT with no regard for the chaos they were causing to people's lives, and whether the strikes were even working.

Now I'm looking forward to them not being able to cause that chaos, and if DOO is the way to achieve that then so be it.

Are you not able to grasp the irony there? They went on strike only because of those plans, you realise that yes?

 

[BestWestern]

What is this tosh & drivel you continue to spout about evil guards? Southern would not dream of saying it. It is your invention to stir the pot. Please try to develop your kind side.
This coming week could be very important. ASLEF & GTR have been really responsible & probably taken much flack from each other,thinly disguised as joshing,during these painful meetings.
Fingers crossed that they develop a solution that could be a template for English/Welsh DOO. But don't hold your breath. And do not frighten the few Southern OBS who might naively fall for your postings. They have families & aspirations & none of them are evil as you enjoyed implying they are viewed.

I said before, have a day off... In fact, make it six months.

Unless those 'aspirations' include joining the Job Centre queue in a few years, the empty propaganda of GTR and their non-job offerings are unlikely to be much use.