Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[harz99]

The Bishop Auckland branch does indeed look to have significant improvement, especially on Sundays. However, as always the devil will be in the detail as there is no mention of operating hours for either weekday or Sundays.

I wonder if the April-October Sundays through trains Bishop Auckland to/from Whitby will continue or be lost.

 

[Ianno87]

Wouldn't the Sheffield to Retford stoppers go into Retford High Level rather than reverse, blocking the Low Level line?

Doesn't look like the plan - the Down Hull Trains seems to typically call in Platform 2 at xx10ish in the hours it runs, which wouldn't work with a new Sheffield arrival at xx09 (even worse if the Sheffield arrival were earlier to give better service spacing from the existing train)

 

[xotGD]

The Bishop Auckland branch does indeed look to have significant improvement, especially on Sundays. However, as always the devil will be in the detail as there is no mention of operating hours for either weekday or Sundays.

I wonder if the April-October Sundays through trains Bishop Auckland to/from Whitby will continue or be lost.

They could certainly do with a later train from Darlo to Bish. It isn't possible to travel back from an evening out by rail and the 18:00 from Kings Cross is the last departure with a Bishop connection. This results in plenty of folk driving to Darlo to catch the train, depriving the branch of passengers.

 

[Class 170101]

It's great waiting at Worksop in the mornings when the cafe is open but no fun in the late afternoons and evenings in winter when everything is closed up.

Is the pub no longer there on the eastbound Platform then?

 

[Welshman]

The one surprising thing is a Bradford to Manchester Oxford Road service in December 2017 extended to the Airport in 2018. That was originally down as a 2019 proposal with the document not mentioning the Chester to Calder Valley service that was due to start this year.

In the absence of the Calder Valley-Chester service, it is a pity that better connections with ATW's Manchester Piccadilly - Chester services could not be arranged.

Assuming the present ATW timetable is unchanged, the new Northern service arrives at Oxford Rd at x55, just as the ATW service to Chester is departing! And in the reverse direction, there is a 40-minute wait for passengers from the Chester line to the Calder Valley. Hey ho!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The extra train each hour between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford, and the reduced journey times between Sheffield and London ought to be welcomed. However, although there will now be 2 trains each hour between Sheffield and Retford, the timings are poor, with the two trains running close together, resulting in it being far from the half hourly service that I was expecting between Worksop and Sheffield.

Taking Worksop as the example trains to Sheffield are now due to depart at xx24 and xx41 and in the other direction trains arrive in Worksop from Sheffield at xx06 and xx59. It might provide more capacity but is not really a great help in increasing the convenience of train travel when trains are timed so closely together. I can see some of the reasons why due to turn round at Sheffield and Retford, but I am sure it could be improved upon.

The trains from Nottingham arrive in Worksop at xx33 and depart at xx41 and so travel from the Mansfield area to Sheffield will be greatly improved with an 8 minute connection time at Worksop. That cuts almost 35 minutes off the current journey time. However, things are not so good when travelling from Sheffield to Mansfield as there will now be a 35 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. The journey time in that direction has not increased but the wait at Worksop has increased due to the faster journey time between Sheffield and Worksop. It's great waiting at Worksop in the mornings when the cafe is open but no fun in the late afternoons and evenings in winter when everything is closed up.

Its very sad that the twin evils of franchising and county boundaries prevent the introduction of through trains from Sheffield to Mansfield. Mansfield (and beyond) seems to be a more logical destination for the extra trains than Retford.

 

[Class 170101]

Its very sad that the twin evils of franchising and county boundaries prevent the introduction of through trains from Sheffield to Mansfield. Mansfield (and beyond) seems to be a more logical destination for the extra trains than Retford.

Problem is you need to reverse at Worksop.

 

[ashworth]

Problem is you need to reverse at Worksop.

Why would that be a problem? Most hours the train from Nottingham arrives at Platform 2 at Worksop at xx33 and departs again for Nottingham 5 minutes later at xx38 form the same platform. That is a reversal and it makes no difference whether the train goes on to Sheffield rather than back to Nottingham.

It won't happen but providing the additional service between Worksop and Sheffield by extending the train from Nottingham would be far more beneficial to passengers by opening up better journey opportunities from the Mansfield area. Sheffield to Worksop probably does need 2 trains each hour and the stops certainly need to be cut from the Lincoln services. However, I do not think 2 trains per hour between Worksop and Retford running only a few minutes apart is really making the best use of the service. Speeding up by running fast between Sheffield and Lincoln is now going to mean a 35 minute wait at Worksop when travelling from Sheffield to Mansfield even if the journey time in the opposite direction is to be greatly improved.

 

[Philip]

Will this be the service pattern on the Bolton corridor once electrification is complete and the new trains are in service?

1 x TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x Northern Connect Man Airport-Blackpool
2 x Northern Man Vic-Blackburn, extended to Clitheroe hourly.
2 x Northern Stalybridge-Wigan NW via Victoria
2 x Northern Hazel Grove-Preston, extended to Blackpool hourly.

It's the Hazel Grove services which I'm not sure about and whether or not the current Victotia-Blackpool stopper will switch to Hazel Grove. All there is to go on it seems is that there must be two trains per hour between Stockport and Bolton.

 

[Frothy]

Will this be the service pattern on the Bolton corridor once electrification is complete and the new trains are in service?

1 x TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x Northern Connect Man Airport-Blackpool
2 x Northern Man Vic-Blackburn, extended to Clitheroe hourly.
2 x Northern Stalybridge-Wigan NW via Victoria
2 x Northern Hazel Grove-Preston, extended to Blackpool hourly.

It's the Hazel Grove services which I'm not sure about and whether or not the current Victotia-Blackpool stopper will switch to Hazel Grove. All there is to go on it seems is that there must be two trains per hour between Stockport and Bolton.

That seems right to me.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Greybeard33]

Will this be the service pattern on the Bolton corridor once electrification is complete and the new trains are in service?

1 x TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x Northern Connect Man Airport-Blackpool
2 x Northern Man Vic-Blackburn, extended to Clitheroe hourly.
2 x Northern Stalybridge-Wigan NW via Victoria
2 x Northern Hazel Grove-Preston, extended to Blackpool hourly.

It's the Hazel Grove services which I'm not sure about and whether or not the current Victotia-Blackpool stopper will switch to Hazel Grove. All there is to go on it seems is that there must be two trains per hour between Stockport and Bolton.

I think it is likely that the Blackburn/Clitheroe services will continue through Victoria to Rochdale or beyond, to avoid reversals at Vic. As for the possible permutations of Blackpool/Preston/Wigan to Hazel Grove/Stalybridge, I think we will have to wait for the (Dec 2017/May 2018?) post-electrification timetable to be published.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Will this be the service pattern on the Bolton corridor once electrification is complete and the new trains are in service?

1 x TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x Northern Connect Man Airport-Blackpool
2 x Northern Man Vic-Blackburn, extended to Clitheroe hourly.
2 x Northern Stalybridge-Wigan NW via Victoria
2 x Northern Hazel Grove-Preston, extended to Blackpool hourly.

It's the Hazel Grove services which I'm not sure about and whether or not the current Victotia-Blackpool stopper will switch to Hazel Grove. All there is to go on it seems is that there must be two trains per hour between Stockport and Bolton.

An additional consideration is TfGM seeking to increase the number of guaranteed cross-Manchester local links. The above combination may well provide the best overall way of meeting that desire with Blackburn line services highly likely to be extended at least as far as Rochdale. OTOH if the link between Southport and Manchester is indeed broken as part of the various timetable changes then it could be that sending the electrified Wigan-Bolton-Manchester service through to the Airport would provide a degree of compensation. Ultimately it may come down to which local area user group makes its voice heard the loudest. And Northern may well have a view about which options will cost the least in terms of any route learning that might be required.

 

[Greybeard33]

An additional consideration is TfGM seeking to increase the number of guaranteed cross-Manchester local links. The above combination may well provide the best overall way of meeting that desire with Blackburn line services highly likely to be extended at least as far as Rochdale. OTOH if the link between Southport and Manchester is indeed broken as part of the various timetable changes then it could be that sending the electrified Wigan-Bolton-Manchester service through to the Airport would provide a degree of compensation. Ultimately it may come down to which local area user group makes its voice heard the loudest. And Northern may well have a view about which options will cost the least in terms of any route learning that might be required.

There will not be any direct service from Wigan to the Airport unless the franchise agreements are amended - the services to the Airport are all specified in the Train Service Requirements.

The link between Southport and Manchester is not being broken, but both hourly Southport services will run via Atherton to Victoria instead of one going via Bolton to Piccadilly and the Airport as now. One hourly Southport service is required to continue to/from Hebden Bridge, presumably terminating at Leeds or Bradford.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There will not be any direct service from Wigan to the Airport unless the franchise agreements are amended - the services to the Airport are all specified in the Train Service Requirements.

The link between Southport and Manchester is not being broken, but both hourly Southport services will run via Atherton to Victoria instead of one going via Bolton to Piccadilly and the Airport as now. One hourly Southport service is required to continue to/from Hebden Bridge, presumably terminating at Leeds or Bradford.

My apologies, my post should have read "the link between Southport and Manchester Airport". The district councils of Greater Manchester have long held and still retain a share in the ownership of Manchester Airport and therefore transport links from the various districts has always been seen as desirable. It's an anomaly that the Atherton line has never had a regular service to the Airport when it would never have been an operational issue to provide one but now it seems that Hindley and Westhoughton are to lose their direct services. Seems like a backward step. In general there seems to be a gradual move to downgrade Windsor Link services in favour of the Ordsall Chord.

 

[66Yorks]

Were Northern planning on running a York to Scarborough service as well? I seem to recall it being mentioned but have not seen anything to confirm this.

 

[IanXC]

Were Northern planning on running a York to Scarborough service as well? I seem to recall it being mentioned but have not seen anything to confirm this.

It was indeed listed on the DfT franchise improvements map. Presumably one for a later set of timetable changes.

 

[Greybeard33]

My apologies, my post should have read "the link between Southport and Manchester Airport". The district councils of Greater Manchester have long held and still retain a share in the ownership of Manchester Airport and therefore transport links from the various districts has always been seen as desirable. It's an anomaly that the Atherton line has never had a regular service to the Airport when it would never have been an operational issue to provide one but now it seems that Hindley and Westhoughton are to lose their direct services. Seems like a backward step. In general there seems to be a gradual move to downgrade Windsor Link services in favour of the Ordsall Chord.

In fact there is going to be a net increase in Windsor Link services. The TPE Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh services will be going back to the Bolton line, plus an additional hourly Hazel Grove to Bolton service.

Greater Manchester stations that will get direct Airport services for the first time include Patricroft and Eccles (the stopper from Liverpool), Victoria (the rerouted TPE services) and later Rochdale (the Bradford Northern Connect). Maybe also Salford Central, once the extra platforms are opened. So more winners than losers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It was indeed listed on the DfT franchise improvements map. Presumably one for a later set of timetable changes.

Was Leeds - Bridlington also one that was mentioned?

 

[bradford758]

It was indeed listed on the DfT franchise improvements map. Presumably one for a later set of timetable changes.

This thread is for December 2017 changes only, mainly alterations to existing services. New services will be starting in May 2018 and at other future change dates.

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[Philip]

What is Northern's plan for the Airport to Blackpool services? The 4-car 331s will be on former 323 routes and I doubt enough will be available to work Blackpool services as well. Is there going to be a micro-fleet of 3-car 331s based at a North West depot? I can't think of any way that the units will integrate with West Yorkshire 331 diagrams, until the North TPE is electrified.

 

[northwichcat]

This thread is for December 2017 changes only, mainly alterations to existing services. New services will be starting in May 2018 and at other future change dates.

It's worth mentioning the changes which were supposed to start in December 2017 and are now not happening until at least 2018 but some of the changes weren't due to happen until December 2019 so they aren't all relevant for the purpose of this thread.

 

[northwichcat]

What is Northern's plan for the Airport to Blackpool services? The 4-car 331s will be on former 323 routes and I doubt enough will be available to work Blackpool services as well. Is there going to be a micro-fleet of 3-car 331s based at a North West depot? I can't think of any way that the units will integrate with West Yorkshire 331 diagrams, until the North TPE is electrified.

We don't know exact stock allocations yet.

However, we do know the intention is to replace the 321 and 322 diagrams with 333s and to put doubled up 331s on the busiest 333 diagrams at peak times. That suggests around half of the 3 car 331s will be needed for replacing the 321s and 322s.


My educated guess would be:

Yorkshire:
16 x 3 car 331s as 321 and 322 replacement

North West:
11 x 4 car 331s and 7 x 3 car 331s as 323 replacement to run 'South Manchester' and Glossop line diagrams
6 x 3 car 331s to run Northern Connect Blackpool services doubled up.
2 x 3 car 331 and 1 x 4 car 331 not in service at any time - used for maintenance/spares

 

[Greybeard33]

We don't know exact stock allocations yet.

However, we do know the intention is to replace the 321 and 322 diagrams with 333s and to put doubled up 331s on the busiest 333 diagrams at peak times. That suggests around half of the 3 car 331s will be needed for replacing the 321s and 322s.


My educated guess would be:

Yorkshire:
16 x 3 car 331s as 321 and 322 replacement

North West:
11 x 4 car 331s and 7 x 3 car 331s as 323 replacement to run 'South Manchester' and Glossop line diagrams
6 x 3 car 331s to run Northern Connect Blackpool services doubled up.
2 x 3 car 331 and 1 x 4 car 331 not in service at any time - used for maintenance/spares

I recall reading a post somewhere that confirmed that the Airport to Crewe via Wilmslow service is to become an extension of the Liverpool to Airport via Chat Moss stopper, so 319-operated. Presumably this will free up 323s for the new off peak Macclesfield service, until the 331s arrive?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Has there been any further updates on the peak Ellesmere Port to Manchester Services due to start in December 17? Two trains a day each way in the peak but I have not seen which station in Manchester these services are going to. I always assumed Victoria?

 

[northwichcat]

Has there been any further updates on the peak Ellesmere Port to Manchester Services due to start in December 17? Two trains a day each way in the peak but I have not seen which station in Manchester these services are going to. I always assumed Victoria?

I imagine the omission of all the Cheshire enhancements in the consultation document means they've been delayed until May 2018.

The Ellesmere Port services will almost certainly be to/from Victoria. I would hope the morning one runs just behind the ATW peak time extra between Chester and Piccadilly and the afternoon one just ahead of it so that Chester passengers wanting Victoria can easily transfer.

 

[Greybeard33]

I imagine the omission of all the Cheshire enhancements in the consultation document means they've been delayed until May 2018.

The Ellesmere Port services will almost certainly be to/from Victoria. I would hope the morning one runs just behind the ATW peak time extra between Chester and Piccadilly and the afternoon one just ahead of it so that Chester passengers wanting Victoria can easily transfer.

Has the fate of the ATW N Wales-Chester-Manchester services yet been decided? They were only granted the paths to the Airport until Dec 2017 and Network Rail suggested they might then have to switch to Victoria to release the paths through Oxford Road for Ordsall Chord services, although Arriva (both ATW and ARN) disputed that.

 

[notlob.divad]

Now if we were being sensible and paths between Oroad and the airport we could have a join/split at Oroad and front half to Bradford rear half to Ellesmere Port or North Wales.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In fact there is going to be a net increase in Windsor Link services. The TPE Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh services will be going back to the Bolton line, plus an additional hourly Hazel Grove to Bolton service.

Greater Manchester stations that will get direct Airport services for the first time include Patricroft and Eccles (the stopper from Liverpool), Victoria (the rerouted TPE services) and later Rochdale (the Bradford Northern Connect). Maybe also Salford Central, once the extra platforms are opened. So more winners than losers.

I congratulate you on your ability to spin.

The Windsor Link will not really be an increase but a reversion to what it used to have but providing a reduced number of through journey opportunities. And the TPE Scottish trains didn't/won't stop at Salford Crescent so provide zero interchange with Atherton line services. As things stand there are only 3tph off-peak between Salford Crescent and Oxford Rd/Piccadilly which can lead to surprisingly long waits at the rather inhospitable platform at Salford Crescent. I would prefer to see the electrified Westhoughton line services go to Piccadilly and either the Airport or Hazel Grove (or both!) but it seems someone has decided that the Chorley line stations are more important. And ironic that the Atherton line is busy enough that it needs to be increased to 4tph off-peak but still can't have an Airport service.

As for winners and losers... Patricroft and Eccles are so poorly located they will never generate many passengers, Victoria and Salford Central will simply spread the load from Piccadilly/Oxford Rd/Deansgate/Salford Crescent meaning Rochdale is the only genuine gain. As opposed to the loss of Westhoughton, Hindley and Appley Bridge and the continued shunning of the Atherton line. I guess we will have to wait for electrification of Southport via Atherton to put things right.

 

[yorksrob]

I hope these increases services on lines such as the Atherton route actually stay increased throughout the day, rather than reverting to hourly in the evening when you actually need an increased service (as is the case now).

For myself, Victoria is probably an easier place to get the train to Leeds, however obviously this is a problem if you want to go to the Airport !

 

[Ianno87]

Now if we were being sensible and paths between Oroad and the airport we could have a join/split at Oroad and front half to Bradford rear half to Ellesmere Port or North Wales.

Not a chance of having capacity for splits/joins at Oxford Rd.

Not even sure if platforms are permissively signalled?