Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[ainsworth74]

I stumbled upon this document thanks to a post on the Brigg Line Blog. So it appears that Northern have started up a round of consultations with stakeholders about their December 2017 timetable change. It makes for very interesting reading and on the whole I think it's probably a good thing as a stepping stone to further changes.

Harrogate possibly being the biggest winner and Bishop Auckland doing quite well from it also.

The document can be found at this link (with an interesting choice of host )

 

[L+Y]

Very interesting.

Is this the first formal confirmation that Bolton electrification will be 2018, rather than 2017? (Page 8: "May 18 – electrification of the Bolton corridor, capacity improvements between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge together with the arrival of more rolling stock will enable the introduction of significant, further enhancements.")

Actually, ignore that. The document seems a bit contradictory, talking about electric rolling stock serving Bolton this year, but electrification of the corridor next year. D319...?

No mention of electrification to Stalybridge either.

Horsforth is my local station, and possibly is the best served in the North from these changes!

 

[gordonthemoron]

When are they making Chester-Altrincham-Manchester 2tph weekdays and 1tph sundays?

 

[pemma]

When are they making Chester-Altrincham-Manchester 2tph weekdays and 1tph sundays?

I thought initially it was a Yorkshire & North East document only due to the lack of a mention of improvements for the Mid-Cheshire, Buxton, Macclesfield and Atherton lines* but it seems they are going to concentrate on implementing Yorkshire & North East improvements and are postponing North West improvements.

The one surprising thing is a Bradford to Manchester Oxford Road service in December 2017 extended to the Airport in 2018. That was originally down as a 2019 proposal with the document not mentioning the Chester to Calder Valley service that was due to start this year.

* They do mention SuO improvements for the Atherton line.

 

[lejog]

Is this the first formal confirmation that Bolton electrification will be 2018, rather than 2017? (Page 8: "May 18 – electrification of the Bolton corridor, capacity improvements between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge together with the arrival of more rolling stock will enable the introduction of significant, further enhancements.")

Actually, ignore that. The document seems a bit contradictory, talking about electric rolling stock serving Bolton this year, but electrification of the corridor next year. D319...?

No, I don't think so, more like after electrification in Dec 2017, some of the DMUs freed up will provide cover for a speeded up refurbishment programme, rather than operating new services.

I'm not sure how much extra rolling stock is required for these changes. Certainly the Calder Valley to Oxford Road service is only off-peak, and the Harrogate improvements were only ever planned to be off-peak (and may be little more than splitting four car services into two 2 car services). So there's possibly one extra train for Bishop Auckland and two for Retford?

 

[lejog]

The one surprising thing is a Bradford to Manchester Oxford Road service in December 2017 extended to the Airport in 2018. That was originally down as a 2019 proposal with the document not mentioning the Chester to Calder Valley service that was due to start this year.

Not running a Northern service over the Ordsall Chord until December 2019 always seemed a little odd. Although hoping to run this through to Manchester Airport in May 2018 is interesting, with the politics involved with paths from Oxford Rd to the airport.

 

[pemma]

Not running a Northern service over the Ordsall Chord until December 2019 always seemed a little odd. Although hoping to run this through to Manchester Airport in May 2018 is interesting, with the politics involved with paths from Oxford Rd to the airport.

Indeed especially if Southport loses it's Airport service in 2018.

However, having 1 Northern service per hour on the Ordsall Chord when TPE will probably run a roughly half-hourly service will create a strange service pattern between the Airport and Victoria.

Also interesting all the marketing has been about connecting Victoria and Piccadilly and it seems the first service operating on the Ordsall Chord will terminate before it reaches Piccadilly.

 

[YorkshireLad]

At the risk of being daft does this mean the current 17:44 to Lincoln from Sheffield would no longer call at Kiveton when the changes go through?

Going to make my work days a hell of a lot longer.

 

[pemma]

At the risk of being daft does this mean the current 17:44 to Lincoln from Sheffield would no longer call at Kiveton when the changes go through?

Going to make my work days a hell of a lot longer.

Unlikely, as there is already a peak time extra to Retford so the train before the 17:44 won't be an additional service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not running a Northern service over the Ordsall Chord until December 2019 always seemed a little odd. Although hoping to run this through to Manchester Airport in May 2018 is interesting, with the politics involved with paths from Oxford Rd to the airport.

It stops complaints of "it's open but you're not using it".
Otherwise it would only get the 2tph TPE service (I'm not sure it will get both of these initially).

Liverpool-Wigan Sundays - no reason why it couldn't be running today.

 

[tbtc]

A few initial thoughts:

• The second Sheffield - Retford service per hour should make connections much better at Worksop, so that a journey like Mansfield - Sheffield becomes a lot more attractive.
  
• It'll also mean Sheffield - Retford - London may be more use than Sheffield - Doncaster - London, for those wanting a faster/ cheaper journey at certain times of day.
  
• Should the Northern Connect map have shown Chesterfield (as the off-peak southern terminus of the Hull - Sheffield service)? Or have these plans changed?
  
• As someone who used to live in Horsforth, I'm in favour of more services there. But slightly surprised that the existing "long distance" is retaining the intermediate stops, whilst the new "short distance" service runs semi-fast - i.e. the new Sheffield to Retford train means that the Lincoln service is limited stop at the western end, but passengers from Knaresborough (etc) will still be stopping at Pannal (etc) whilst the new Harrogate - Leeds services only have one intermediate stop. Maybe that'd have messed around with diagrams too much to change?
  
• Great news that on the Whitby line the "Majority of services will operate from/to Newcastle via Sunderland"
  
• Great news that the Sheffield - Lincoln service will be "all day" on Sundays, not just starting mid-afternoon (the first arrival from Lincoln is currently 16:35!)
  
• "Northern is reviewing opportunities to operate services on
• Boxing Day" << get the popcorn ready...

I stumbled upon this document thanks to a post on the Brigg Line Blog. So it appears that Northern have started up a round of consultations with stakeholders about their December 2017 timetable change. It makes for very interesting reading and on the whole I think it's probably a good thing as a stepping stone to further changes.

Harrogate possibly being the biggest winner and Bishop Auckland doing quite well from it also.

The document can be found at this link (with an interesting choice of host )

Good spot - thanks for sharing!

I've family on the Bishop Auckland line so I'm all for improvements there - it's always seemed an odd line to get a generally bi-hourly service, since the unit that would otherwise have been running up the branch is just sat in the sidings at Darlington having a long layover (due to the half hourly Saltburn timetable) - it's not like it'd cost an extra unit. Okay, it might mean some drivers/ guards no longer get their PNB at Darlo, it's maybe not as "simple" as I make it sound...

I thought initially it was a Yorkshire & North East document only due to the lack of a mention of improvements for the Mid-Cheshire, Buxton, Macclesfield and Atherton lines* but it seems they are going to concentrate on implementing Yorkshire & North East improvements and are postponing North West improvements

I guess it's a combination of focussing on "self-contained changes can be made without affecting other services" (various threads about uses for 319s highlight just how complicated the inter-working around Manchester can be) and the fact that the North West will see significant improvements once late-running electrification is progressed (very little electrification to be seen on this side of the Pennines), so not the same "jam tomorrow".

 

[yorksrob]

[*]Great news that on the Whitby line the "Majority of services will operate from/to Newcastle via Sunderland"

Only four trains per day to Whitby ? I thought this was supposed to be moving to five (which is still inadequate anyway).

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only four trains per day to Whitby ? I thought this was supposed to be moving to five (which is still inadequate anyway).

Not sure if that is linked to the potash mine which if approved have to fund infrastructure enhancements.

 

[ainsworth74]

Only four trains per day to Whitby ? I thought this was supposed to be moving to five (which is still inadequate anyway).

Not sure if that is linked to the potash mine which if approved have to fund infrastructure enhancements.

Worth recalling this is a stepping stone timetable change. There will be more to come in the future with the May 2018 timetable change (which is advertised in the consultation as being 'much more substantial'). So I would figure that the extra is still on its way just not this time.

 

[pemma]

the fact that the North West will see significant improvements once late-running electrification is progressed (very little electrification to be seen on this side of the Pennines), so not the same "jam tomorrow".

What about Standedge Tunnel to Colton La Junction and Sheffield to Chesterfield? That'll be about 65 miles of electrics presuming Selby-Hull doesn't get wired. I think we'll be up to about 100 miles in the North West once the North West triangle and North TPE is done presuming Wigan-Bolton and Windermere don't get done. Considering the North West has a population 25% higher than Yorkshire & The Humber the proportional difference in investment in overheads is small. The difference is Yorkshire's jam is still fresh fruit while the first couple of pots of North West jam have been produced.

 

[thealexweb]

presuming Wigan-Bolton and Windermere don't get done.

These have reached GRIP 3 some time ago. It would be a little late to cancel them now.

 

[Philip]

Can we assume that the Blackburn-Rochdale-Victoria service will join up with the Bradford-Airport service at Victoria, in order to provide the direct connection between Blackburn and Manchester Airport that Northern wants? Seems like it's the only way it could work without taking up an extra path.

What will happen to the Southport-Airport service? We know that Southport Council and the locals along that line want it to remain that way, but there simply won't be enough paths as things stand now.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

These have reached GRIP 3 some time ago. It would be a little late to cancel them now.

I seem to recall that Windermere has already been cancelled, hence the plan for the bi-mode 319s?

 

[Class 170101]

One thing that has surprised me is that the York to Leeds local service (in both directions) are on the slower trains rather than the faster ones south of Harrogate.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure if that is linked to the potash mine which if approved have to fund infrastructure enhancements.

Worth recalling this is a stepping stone timetable change. There will be more to come in the future with the May 2018 timetable change (which is advertised in the consultation as being 'much more substantial'). So I would figure that the extra is still on its way just not this time.

Ah thanks, that might explain it.

 

[robbeale]

I seem to recall that Windermere has already been cancelled, hence the plan for the bi-mode 319s?

Not cancelled, just postponed. At Oxenholme the first 3 or 4 gantries for the wires along the line are already in place. http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co...usion_over_electrification_of_the_Lakes_Line/

 

[bradford758]

One thing that has surprised me is that the York to Leeds local service (in both directions) are on the slower trains rather than the faster ones south of Harrogate.

Yes, that was on the original 'spec' for this line. From 2019 ? one of the new trips is to be replaced by a VTEC trip every two hours.

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[jayah]

A few initial thoughts:

• As someone who used to live in Horsforth, I'm in favour of more services there. But slightly surprised that the existing "long distance" is retaining the intermediate stops, whilst the new "short distance" service runs semi-fast - i.e. the new Sheffield to Retford train means that the Lincoln service is limited stop at the western end, but passengers from Knaresborough (etc) will still be stopping at Pannal (etc) whilst the new Harrogate - Leeds services only have one intermediate stop. Maybe that'd have messed around with diagrams too much to change?
  

Yes, something of a shame they haven't even managed to get something for Knaresborough semi-fast to Leeds. Hopefully they will be addressing the pretty naff evening service, which is about 30 years out of date and probably a legacy of mechanical signalling at Horsforth and possibly Leeds. Going to hourly at 1829 on a Saturday and 1930 on a weekday!

Hebden Bridge and Todmorden have 4/3 trains an hour to Leeds and all 3 from Todmorden are still just under the hour. Even the Preston train takes 47min from Hebden Bridge, little faster than stopping everywhere on the Bradford line. There must be a better use for the Brighouse route here.

 

[Jamesrob637]

When are they making Chester-Altrincham-Manchester 2tph weekdays and 1tph sundays?

No excuse for hourly Sunday trains to be delayed past 2017 as all the stock lies in depots on Sundays so it'd just be a case of utilising some of the existing fleet. All services could be formed of four cars and every other service call additionally at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme since their Sunday service is far from ideal at present (45 minute wait if you miss the 4 minutes past from Piccadilly!)

As for 2tph on weekdays, that may likely have to wait for cascades. But again, promises delivered and all that...

 

[pemma]

No excuse for hourly Sunday trains to be delayed past 2017 as all the stock lies in depots on Sundays so it'd just be a case of utilising some of the existing fleet. All services could be formed of four cars and every other service call additionally at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme since their Sunday service is far from ideal at present (45 minute wait if you miss the 4 minutes past from Piccadilly!)

Southbound calls at Levenshulme or Heaton Chapel for Chester bound services wouldn't work. They'd either get in the way of a South TPE service or if they go behind it they would have to go in to platform 1 and wait for a XC service to depart platform 2, then have to wait for a northbound service to go through before they can cross the northbound lines to go towards Northenden. The latter would add around 15 minutes to the journey time and affect the time of the return working as well.

But again, promises delivered and all that...

You could also argue that they've promised to deliver faster services to Buxton and Chester so those services shouldn't be made to stop at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The hourly Sunday service on the Aire/Wharfe valley is long overdue.

Whitby? The devil will be in the detail. Does "the majority of trains through to Newcastle" include Whitby trains, or just the Nunthorpe shorts, which are already run as an extension of the Durham Coast trains. Hourly up to Bish is long overdue too.

 

[ashworth]

The extra train each hour between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford, and the reduced journey times between Sheffield and London ought to be welcomed. However, although there will now be 2 trains each hour between Sheffield and Retford, the timings are poor, with the two trains running close together, resulting in it being far from the half hourly service that I was expecting between Worksop and Sheffield.

Taking Worksop as the example trains to Sheffield are now due to depart at xx24 and xx41 and in the other direction trains arrive in Worksop from Sheffield at xx06 and xx59. It might provide more capacity but is not really a great help in increasing the convenience of train travel when trains are timed so closely together. I can see some of the reasons why due to turn round at Sheffield and Retford, but I am sure it could be improved upon.

The trains from Nottingham arrive in Worksop at xx33 and depart at xx41 and so travel from the Mansfield area to Sheffield will be greatly improved with an 8 minute connection time at Worksop. That cuts almost 35 minutes off the current journey time. However, things are not so good when travelling from Sheffield to Mansfield as there will now be a 35 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. The journey time in that direction has not increased but the wait at Worksop has increased due to the faster journey time between Sheffield and Worksop. It's great waiting at Worksop in the mornings when the cafe is open but no fun in the late afternoons and evenings in winter when everything is closed up.

 

[Ianno87]

The extra train each hour between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford, and the reduced journey times between Sheffield and London ought to be welcomed. However, although there will now be 2 trains each hour between Sheffield and Retford, the timings are poor, with the two trains running close together, resulting in it being far from the half hourly service that I was expecting between Worksop and Sheffield.

Taking Worksop as the example trains to Sheffield are now due to depart at xx24 and xx41 and in the other direction trains arrive in Worksop from Sheffield at xx06 and xx59. It might provide more capacity but is not really a great help in increasing the convenience of train travel when trains are timed so closely together. I can see some of the reasons why due to turn round at Sheffield and Retford, but I am sure it could be improved upon.

The trains from Nottingham arrive in Worksop at xx33 and depart at xx41 and so travel from the Mansfield area to Sheffield will be greatly improved with an 8 minute connection time at Worksop. That cuts almost 35 minutes off the current journey time. However, things are not so good when travelling from Sheffield to Mansfield as there will now be a 35 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. The journey time in that direction has not increased but the wait at Worksop has increased due to the faster journey time between Sheffield and Worksop. It's great waiting at Worksop in the mornings when the cafe is open but no fun in the late afternoons and evenings in winter when everything is closed up.

I spotted that. I suspect that the uneven spacing is related to the reversal move necessary at Retford; presumably having to go to Thumpton Loop and back again, fitting around the existing hourly service and any freight paths that are knocking around.

 

[brompton rail]

Wouldn't the Sheffield to Retford stoppers go into Retford High Level rather than reverse, blocking the Low Level line?

 

[Lincoln]

The indicative times between Sheffield and Lincoln really do not look like much development work was put in. Overall I can't help but feel disappointed with it.

• Departure times from Lincoln are in what is the EMT path to Nottingham - which is fixed due to Newark Flat Crossing plus rules of the route turnarounds for the inbound service. Plus connections at Lincoln to Newark Castle/Nottingham are still 30 minutes.
• From Sheffield the best available connection to Worksop has been increased from roughly 20 to 30 minutes.
• A fair attempt has been made to ensure connections between the Slow/Fast services at Worksop, but this is at the expense of the larger market flows such as Mansfield-Sheffield etc.

It completely get that this publication is just intended a general overview on what the services will look like - as of course services will be recast once again when the Connect routes are launched. But I still can't feel that a trick has been missed.

Whilst I appreciate access in and out of Sheffield is at a premium; there is a fair amount of flex available in moving other services by a minute or two to accommodate a better timetable.

I've attached a back of the envelope draft that gives roughly 10 minute connections to/from Robin Hood on the Lincoln side along with about 20 minute connections on the Sheffield side of Worksop. There is also a consistent 20 minute connection at Worksop between the Slow/Fast services in both directions as well. Timings are tight in the Worksop area but again services can be flexed accordingly around Shireoaks East Junction.

It also tightens up the connections at Lincoln for the Nottingham services compared to at present.