EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

Any shortfall could be covered with *controlled* immigration, ideally with Britain taking in what skills it needs, drawing from a global talent pool, not from one political club.

Then we just end up with the bureaucratic nightmare of a work permit system, needing more people to administrate it.

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure it's possible to make that simple calculation, as if the EU population was not here then the demand for labour would also be lower...

If only because the economy would have crashed, making everyone poorer.

Any shortfall could be covered with *controlled* immigration, ideally with Britain taking in what skills it needs, drawing from a global talent pool...

Which we already do.

 

[meridian2]

Then we just end up with the bureaucratic nightmare of a work permit system, needing more people to administrate it.

The administration of immigration is infinitesimally less onerous than the permanent movement of people for residence, and the health and other costs that ensue. Even if someone finds reasonably paid, though probably low or unskilled work and their net taxation is higher than their demands on the system, it's unlikely to be sufficient for a wife and dependents at home taking out of the same pot. Then there are people who have no work and little hope of finding it, but still want residence.

There is a moral case for taking people in immanent peril, but the commercial case is not of the same order, or countries like the US, Canada and Australia would accept anyone who can afford a ticket, on the basis it would make everyone richer.

 

[EM2]

If freedom of movement causes such iniquity, why is the UK alone in wages falling while the economy grew?
See post #5328 for further info.

 

[meridian2]

If freedom of movement causes such iniquity, why is the UK alone in wages falling while the economy grew?
See post #5328 for further info.

Because the EU places economic growth higher than cultural and social cohesion?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because the EU places economic growth higher than cultural and social cohesion?

Would you say that also applies to China?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The negative image of Essex stems from portrayals of 'Essex girls' dancing around their handbags and the shallow materialists of 'The Only Way Is Essex'. It would be like judging Cheshire on Aintree Ladies Day and 'Hollyoaks'.

Winsford, Sandbach and Northwich are no better or worse than Basildon, Harlow and Rayleigh, and conversely I'd put Finchingfield and Thaxted up against anything that Cheshire can offer for picturesqueness.

Aintree, to the best of my knowledge, has never been part of Cheshire. In times historical, it was once administered by the ancient Hundred of West Derby.....

"Ladies Day" at Aintree, judging what images are televised, is possibly contravening some better understood meaning of the word "Ladies".....

 

[EM2]

Because the EU places economic growth higher than cultural and social cohesion?

Hmmm....
Social cohesion is defined as a cohesive society that...

• Works toward the well being of all its members
• Fights exclusion and marginalisation
• Creates a sense of belonging
• Promotes trust
• Offers its members the opportunity of upward mobility (rising from a lower to a higher social class or status)

Are you suggesting that the UK is doing this better than (for example) Germany or France, because those countries have prioritised economic growth, or am I misunderstanding your argument?

 

[EM2]

Aintree, to the best of my knowledge, has never been part of Cheshire....

But has many visitors from Cheshire.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmmm....
Social cohesion is defined as a cohesive society that...

• Works toward the well being of all its members
• Fights exclusion and marginalisation
• Creates a sense of belonging
• Promotes trust
• Offers its members the opportunity of upward mobility (rising from a lower to a higher social class or status)

Can you think of any country who best offers all five aspirations stated above?

 

[najaB]

Can you think of any country who best offers all five aspirations stated above?

The Scandewegian (Nordic) countries are probably the closest example.

 

[meridian2]

Are you suggesting that the UK is doing this better than (for example) Germany or France, because those countries have prioritised economic growth, or am I misunderstanding your argument?

I'm saying a transnational organisation with expansionist aims and no internal barriers, cannot have existing national and regional culture as a priority.

 

[meridian2]

Would you say that also applies to China?

Difficult to say. China is an ethnically homogenous nation, whether it's culturally integrated I couldn't say as I'm insufficiently familiar with what Chinese culture represents.

 

[EM2]

I'm saying a transnational organisation with expansionist aims and no internal barriers, cannot have existing national and regional culture as a priority.

I can see that argument, but it doesn't really answer the question as to why, when many countries are operating under the same migratory framework, wages have been depressed in only one of them despite economic growth in all of them.

 

[najaB]

China is an ethnically homogenous nation...

It is not.

 

[meridian2]

It is not.

I was going to qualify the original statement with the word largely, but didn't think anyone would be pedantic enough to take issue with the ninety-one-and-a-half percent Han majority as anything other than homogenous. Clearly I was mistaken in that assumption.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was going to qualify the original statement with the word largely, but didn't think anyone would be pedantic enough to take issue with the ninety-one-and-a-half percent Han majority as anything other than homogenous. Clearly I was mistaken in that assumption.

Given that 87% of the UK is "white British" it's not that much of a stretch - is the UK homogenous then?

 

[najaB]

I was going to qualify the original statement with the word largely, but didn't think anyone would be pedantic enough to take issue with the ninety-one-and-a-half percent Han majority as anything other than homogenous. Clearly I was mistaken in that assumption.

The Chinese minority population is almost twice the entire population of the UK.

 

[meridian2]

Given that 87% of the UK is "white British" it's not that much of a stretch - is the UK homogenous then?

Much of the UK is ethnically very white European, the exception being the larger cities which have a much greater percentage of non-WEs. As I don't consider myself a racist, I'm more concerned with cultural and regional integrity than ethnic plurality. If people accept the Christian principles on which British society has been built, or at least don't attempt to replace them with non-Christian ones, their personal practice and ethnic origin should be irrelevant.

 

[meridian2]

The Chinese minority population is almost twice the entire population of the UK.

This is relevant to the thread how exactly?

 

[najaB]

This is relevant to the thread how exactly?

You're the one who said China is an ethnically homogenous country, I was pointing out that it is not. The huge variation in population density means that China is effectively three countries on an ethnic basis:

 

[meridian2]

You're the one who said China is an ethnically homogenous country, I was pointing out that it is not. The huge variation in population density means that China is effectively three countries on an ethnic basis:

The Han majority consists of 91.5% of the population. China is a huge country by population and size, so inevitably 8.5% of nearly 1.4 billion is quite a few people. That doesn't alter the fact that more than 9 out of 10 Chinese are Han. If you go to outlying areas the minority is greater, in many areas the Han population is almost total.

What this has to do with the EU I have no idea.

 

[najaB]

What this has to do with the EU I have no idea.

You are the one who brought Chinese ethnic homogeneity in to the discussion.

 

[meridian2]

You are the one who brought Chinese ethnic homogeneity in to the discussion.

Incorrect. Paul did when he asked whether cultural and social cohesion applied to China. Up until that point China hadn't been mentioned in any context.

 

[najaB]

Incorrect. Paul did when he asked whether cultural and social cohesion applied to China. Up until that point China hadn't been mentioned in any context.

Read what I wrote. I said you brought Chinese homogeneity into the discussion. Paul asked about the relative merit placed on economic development v societal cohesion. He didn't mention anything about ethnic homogeneity, you did.

 

[meridian2]

Read what I wrote. I said you brought Chinese homogeneity into the discussion. Paul asked about the relative merit placed on economic development v societal cohesion. He didn't mention anything about ethnic homogeneity, you did.

I brought cultural homogeneity into the discussion. If someone asks how that pertains to China, and I don't ignore Paul's direct question, my reply will inevitably involve Chinese homogeneity. Answering a question is not the equivalent to introducing a topic deux ex machina. I still have no idea of the relevance of China to the topic of Brexit, or why Paul chose to raise it. I specifically differentiated ethnicity and culture in my answer to Paul to avoid mischievous conflations.

Perhaps you can enlighten me?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I brought cultural homogeneity into the discussion. If someone asks how that pertains to China, and I don't ignore Paul's direct question, my reply will inevitably involve Chinese homogeneity. Answering a question is not the equivalent to introducing a topic deux ex machina. I still have no idea of the relevance of China to the topic of Brexit, or why Paul chose to raise it. I specifically differentiated ethnicity and culture in my answer to Paul to avoid mischievous conflations.

Perhaps you can enlighten me?

I chose China as it was the EU that was being discussed in relation to the said matter, as both are large trading groups.

 

[AlterEgo]

Much of the UK is ethnically very white European, the exception being the larger cities which have a much greater percentage of non-WEs. As I don't consider myself a racist, I'm more concerned with cultural and regional integrity than ethnic plurality. If people accept the Christian principles on which British society has been built, or at least don't attempt to replace them with non-Christian ones, their personal practice and ethnic origin should be irrelevant.

Agree, except Britain wasn't exclusively built on Christian principles (none of which are original to Christianity anyway!).

Christianity is now a minority religion in the UK and continues to decline.

 

[Grimsby town]

Much of the UK is ethnically very white European, the exception being the larger cities which have a much greater percentage of non-WEs. As I don't consider myself a racist, I'm more concerned with cultural and regional integrity than ethnic plurality. If people accept the Christian principles on which British society has been built, or at least don't attempt to replace them with non-Christian ones, their personal practice and ethnic origin should be irrelevant.

Ok so surely its better to have European immigration (Christian countries) than from the rest of the world.

I think people will have a shock if some of what the leave advocates say is true. If, as they say, we should choose the skills we need from all over the world there is likely to be much less integration with new immigrants.

I won't speak for everyone but I personally find I have more in common with Europeans than Americans when it comes to values and my beliefs about the world. Even language which is one of the main barriers to European integration is a lot closer to English than a good majority of non European countries.

Can you honestly tell me, for example, that we have more in common with most commonwealth countries than France.

 

[meridian2]

Agree, except Britain wasn't exclusively built on Christian principles (none of which are original to Christianity anyway!).

Christianity is now a minority religion in the UK and continues to decline.

The monarch is head of state and of the established church. The coronation makes the relationship with crown subjects clear. Whether one agrees with the metaphysic is irrelevant.