EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[furnessvale]

Could you name a more recent terror attack, or indeed any attack, in the UK, committed by an EU, Non UK, Non Irish citizen?

No I can't, neither can I think of attacks on the EU mainland by UK terrorists.

This rather makes my point that restrictions between the UK and EU, even without our membership of the EU, for terrorism related reasons are unnecessary, and I would consider such an imposition by the EU post Brexit to be vindictive.

 

[Howardh]

No I can't, neither can I think of attacks on the EU mainland by UK terrorists.

This rather makes my point that restrictions between the UK and EU, even without our membership of the EU, for terrorism related reasons are unnecessary, and I would consider such an imposition by the EU post Brexit to be vindictive.

I will applaud that! Ther is no reason why any more restrictions need to be in place between the EU and UK whether we have Brexit or not. If we require Visas, fingerprinting, vetting etc just to pop abroad for a weekend, that will be seen as a "punishment" on both sides, us going there, them to us, and will hit both in the pocket. A tourist from the near countries won't want to go through all that just to spend a day shopping in London when they can go to Paris. Why would they??

What would help enormously if people who support Brexit can see the folly of further restrictions, and start to suggest they will turn against Brexit should any such be imposed. On my side, if we could be assures there wil be NO SUCH restrictions (EU/UK), I would (although not supporting Brexit fuly) be more acceptable towards it.

It would also mean we can keep FoM between us and the RoI.

 

[furnessvale]

I will applaud that! Ther is no reason why any more restrictions need to be in place between the EU and UK whether we have Brexit or not. If we require Visas, fingerprinting, vetting etc just to pop abroad for a weekend, that will be seen as a "punishment" on both sides, us going there, them to us, and will hit both in the pocket. A tourist from the near countries won't want to go through all that just to spend a day shopping in London when they can go to Paris. Why would they??

What would help enormously if people who support Brexit can see the folly of further restrictions, and start to suggest they will turn against Brexit should any such be imposed. On my side, if we could be assures there wil be NO SUCH restrictions (EU/UK), I would (although not supporting Brexit fuly) be more acceptable towards it.

It would also mean we can keep FoM between us and the RoI.

You may have worked out that I am pro brexit! (good guess) I am also pro freedom of movement for tourism, but not unlimited for work, or seeking work or indeed for asylum, when virtually all current asylum seekers have already passed through several safe countries en route to the UK.

 

[najaB]

Could you name a more recent terror attack, or indeed any attack, in the UK, committed by an EU, Non UK, Non Irish citizen?

The Met recently said they have interrupted 13 significant terror plots since 7/7 - how much are you willing to bet that none of them involved UK nationals?

Plus, look at the UK nationals who have gone to Syria to fight with Diesh.

The risk is lower with UK nationals, but not zero.

 

[miami]

The Met recently said they have interrupted 13 significant terror plots since 7/7 - how much are you willing to bet that none of them involved UK nationals?

Plus, look at the UK nationals who have gone to Syria to fight with Diesh.

The risk is lower with UK nationals, but not zero.

We don't have the answers, but historically the numbers are so low it's fairly irrelevant -- the risk of becoming a victim of terrorism this year in the UK is 0.000%, and the risk of becoming a victim of terrorism this year in the UK is 0.000%

I'd be more concerned about lorry drivers who ignore various regulations and don't get enough sleep. That's the sort of thing that should be applied across the continent, if only there was some kind of continent-wide organisation that could handle it, ideally with democratic oversight from some form of parliament.

 

[miami]

You may have worked out that I am pro brexit! (good guess) I am also pro freedom of movement for tourism, but not unlimited for work, or seeking work

How would this be stopped? I remember in 2003 renting a room in London while I found my feet, I asked one of the 3 Poles sharing the attic how they had a visa - apparently too much trouble.

Earning cash in hand, not paying taxes, sending it back to Poland. Yes, that's the sort of work we want to encourage :roll:

 

[najaB]

We don't have the answers, but historically the numbers are so low it's fairly irrelevant -- the risk of becoming a victim of terrorism this year in the UK is 0.000%, and the risk of becoming a victim of terrorism this year in the UK is 0.000%

I agree. The point I was responding to was the idea that the EU requiring visas, etc. would purely be an act of spite.

 

[furnessvale]

How would this be stopped? I remember in 2003 renting a room in London while I found my feet, I asked one of the 3 Poles sharing the attic how they had a visa - apparently too much trouble.

Earning cash in hand, not paying taxes, sending it back to Poland. Yes, that's the sort of work we want to encourage :roll:

That's the spirit! When faced with law breaking, give up!

 

[furnessvale]

I agree. The point I was responding to was the idea that the EU requiring visas, etc. would purely be an act of spite.

So agreeing that there is liable to be zero interchange of terrorists between the UK and the EU, how do you interpret a (possible) requirement for visas for travel between us?

 

[Howardh]

How would this be stopped? I remember in 2003 renting a room in London while I found my feet, I asked one of the 3 Poles sharing the attic how they had a visa - apparently too much trouble.

Earning cash in hand, not paying taxes, sending it back to Poland. Yes, that's the sort of work we want to encourage :roll:

In reality, if there are no checks - no I mean Polish - *rubbish gag, delete...* at our borders for EU citizens, then that means anyone looking for work can stroll in. And take the black-market jobs.

And if there are checks at borders, they will come in as tourists or students and/or via Ireland.

What will happen in reality is that employers and landlords become (unpaid) immigration officers. Of course, rogue ones won't grass on their workforce/tenants if they are doing the job and providing the income...just like now.

So we go after the rogue landlords and employers and put them in front of a judge..."did you check Vos Wisolski's work and visa status?"

"No, your honour, he said he was a British Citizen and I therefore have no right to demand ID nor forward his name to the authorities".

"Case dismissed, and that will cost Her Majesty's Government £125,000 in costs".

Everywhere you look in Brexit there are so many holes, and I'd say that if I were a fully paid up member of UKIP too.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So agreeing that there is liable to be zero interchange of terrorists between the UK and the EU, how do you interpret a (possible) requirement for visas for travel between us?

We will no longer be inside the EU. Thus we will be subject to the same rules and regulations as other countries outside the EU. Why is that so difficult for Brexiters to understand? There is no having your cake and eat it here, we can't leave the EU but expect keep the bits that are good for you (my same rant goes to those in Cornwall and Wales who voted to leave but expect government to make up for the lost funding). If we do keep certain things then brilliant, job well done, but surely the expectation should be that if we leave then we lose ALL the benefits of currently being a member?

 

[furnessvale]

In reality, if there are no checks - no I mean Polish - *rubbish gag, delete...* at our borders for EU citizens, then that means anyone looking for work can stroll in. And take the black-market jobs.

And if there are checks at borders, they will come in as tourists or students and/or via Ireland.

What will happen in reality is that employers and landlords become (unpaid) immigration officers. Of course, rogue ones won't grass on their workforce/tenants if they are doing the job and providing the income...just like now.

So we go after the rogue landlords and employers and put them in front of a judge..."did you check Vos Wisolski's work and visa status?"

"No, your honour, he said he was a British Citizen and I therefore have no right to demand ID nor forward his name to the authorities".

"Case dismissed, and that will cost Her Majesty's Government £125,000 in costs".

Everywhere you look in Brexit there are so many holes, and I'd say that if I were a fully paid up member of UKIP too.

I don't know why remainers are exercising their minds over this. The received wisdom is that, post brexit, the country is going pear shaped.

There will no longer be masses of johnny foreigners coming over here and living 3 to an attic as described above. Rather it will be masses of Brits sneaking into the EU and living illegally in attics in Paris and Berlin.

I purposely did not mention attics in Warsaw or Bucharest as that would be stretching credulity too much.

 

[furnessvale]

We will no longer be inside the EU. Thus we will be subject to the same rules and regulations as other countries outside the EU. Why is that so difficult for Brexiters to understand? There is no having your cake and eat it here, we can't leave the EU but expect keep the bits that are good for you (my same rant goes to those in Cornwall and Wales who voted to leave but expect government to make up for the lost funding). If we do keep certain things then brilliant, job well done, but surely the expectation should be that if we leave then we lose ALL the benefits of currently being a member?

As long as the EU realises it too loses all the benefits.

A trade surplus with the UK. A million workers remitting wages and benefits back home. Hundreds of thousands of UK pensioners on permanent holiday in the sun, spending their pensions on the Costas.

Also, our complete withdrawal would seriously compromise their anti terrorism efforts, as well as hitting the joint EU carbon reduction target by several points.

In exchange, the UK will be able to deal independently with the rest of the world, no longer concerned what effect a deal on bananas will have on 2 French colonies, or a deal on sugar will have on French beet producers, to name but two.

 

[Howardh]

As long as the EU realises it too loses all the benefits.

A trade surplus with the UK. A million workers remitting wages and benefits back home. Hundreds of thousands of UK pensioners on permanent holiday in the sun, spending their pensions on the Costas.

Also, our complete withdrawal would seriously compromise their anti terrorism efforts, as well as hitting the joint EU carbon reduction target by several points.

In exchange, the UK will be able to deal independently with the rest of the world, no longer concerned what effect a deal on bananas will have on 2 French colonies, or a deal on sugar will have on French beet producers, to name but two.

You can't deal independently with anyone when you're at their mercy. We will be beggars, and therefore can't be choosers. India say - "wanna trade? OK then, relax your visa restrictions".

Afraid all this dealing independently and expecting it to be the New Beginning is a bit of a smokescreen for "help".

 

[najaB]

So agreeing that there is liable to be zero interchange of terrorists between the UK and the EU, how do you interpret a (possible) requirement for visas for travel between us?

That would entirely depend on how hard/easy it is to get any such visa. People seem to forget that the concept of visas pre-dates terrorism (Islamic or otherwise) .

 

[Barn]

One of the saddest things reading this thread is the extent to which a good many British people - British people - now believe that we are some helpless nation unable to look after ourselves. The sense of national helplessness engendered by the EU is the work of some genius.

 

[najaB]

One of the saddest things reading this thread is the extent to which a good many British people - British people - now believe that we are some helpless nation unable to look after ourselves.

I don't think anyone believes that the country will collapse without the EU, however the days of Empire are long gone. We will survive outside the EU but in the absence of a good deal we will be less prosperous than we could have been.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So we go after the rogue landlords and employers and put them in front of a judge..."did you check Vos Wisolski's work and visa status?"

"No, your honour, he said he was a British Citizen and I therefore have no right to demand ID nor forward his name to the authorities".

"Case dismissed, and that will cost Her Majesty's Government £125,000 in costs".

Everywhere you look in Brexit there are so many holes, and I'd say that if I were a fully paid up member of UKIP too.

Actually, landlords in England are not just permitted but are required by law to check prospective tenants' visa status, and can face £3000 fines if they are found to have taken on tenant not allowed to live in the UK without making the necessary checks. So the particular scenario you're describing can't in general happen.

There are however other issues: It means that landlords are in effect required to act as unpaid immigration officers. And - more seriously - there is some anecdotal evidence that it's causing discrimination against ethnic minorities, or people who have foreign-sounding names, or speak with a non-native accent. That's because if you are in one of those groups, landlords become more fearful that just maybe you might be an illegal immigrant and they might therefore face a fine if they take you as a tenant. Whereas if you're white, your name is John Smith, and you speak with a perfect BBC accent, people are much more likely to trust that you really are British.

 

[WelshBluebird]

One of the saddest things reading this thread is the extent to which a good many British people - British people - now believe that we are some helpless nation unable to look after ourselves. The sense of national helplessness engendered by the EU is the work of some genius.

Successive governments have made it very clear that they are unable to look after certain bits of the country (or more specifically, can't be bothered to) - it is why those regions had to rely on EU funding to begin with.

 

[Jonny]

I don't think anyone believes that the country will collapse without the EU, however the days of Empire are long gone. We will survive outside the EU but in the absence of a good deal we will be less prosperous than we could have been.

In the short term maybe, but once the byzantine behemoth-sized body of regulations from the EU gets rolled back then we will be better off out (in the long run). We can, of course. ^borrow^ any good ideas and not have those that aren't so good.

One of the problems with the EU is that, with the European Parliament as a centralised legislation-making body, it makes an attractive target for lobbyists and such like.

 

[miami]

In the short term maybe, but once the byzantine behemoth-sized body of regulations from the EU gets rolled back then we will be better off out (in the long run). We can, of course. ^borrow^ any good ideas and not have those that aren't so good.

One of the problems with the EU is that, with the European Parliament as a centralised legislation-making body, it makes an attractive target for lobbyists and such like.

That's why Murdoch loves Brussels - he has no control over Downing Street, only Brussels.


Oh wait, it's the complete opposite.

 

[miami]

One of the saddest things reading this thread is the extent to which a good many British people - British people - now believe that we are some helpless nation unable to look after ourselves. The sense of national helplessness engendered by the EU is the work of some genius.

Theresa May has all the power, based on 0% of the vote, following in the footsteps of Cameron who got 37% of the vote, and with Labour having committed suicide she'll be in power until 2025 at least, and the media is trying to dismantle our courts and the House of Lords, so you're damn right I think we're helpless.

 

[najaB]

In the short term maybe, but once the byzantine behemoth-sized body of regulations from the EU gets rolled back then we will be better off out (in the long run)...

The EU isn't responsible for nearly as much regulation as they get the blame for. In the runup to the referendum the Leave campaign said that there were 109 EU regulations governing pillows. It turned out they were correct - if you include 'pillow-shaped breakfast cereals', 'pillow ball joints' and pumps for inflating pillow-shaped air mattresses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hong Kong demonstrates that mountainous terrain is no obstacle to constructing a city.

Yes, but you were using Hong Kong as a comparative to my mention of the inland mountain areas that are a feature of much of northern Scotland. Do you propose the road systems of those mountainous areas of Scotland be made up to 21st century road standards in order to serve a new city established there.

Hong Kong is never in any part far removed from the sea, whereas one has to go back to the days of when the two parts of Scotland on either side of the Great Glen were of different continental masses, that saw the sea lapping around either Ben Klibreck or Beinn Dearg.

Still, I will give you the credit that you deserve for proposing the reversal of the sad affair that was that of the Highland Clearances.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Successive governments have made it very clear that they are unable to look after certain bits of the country (or more specifically, can't be bothered to) - it is why those regions had to rely on EU funding to begin with.

Would Cornwall and the Outer Hebrides be two of those areas that you had in mind?

 

[Groningen]

One of the saddest things reading this thread is the extent to which a good many British people - British people - now believe that we are some helpless nation unable to look after ourselves. The sense of national helplessness engendered by the EU is the work of some genius.

Well; you have a good friend in Donald Trump.

 

[EM2]

We can, of course. ^borrow^ any good ideas and not have those that aren't so good.

What are the ideas that aren't so good?

 

[AlterEgo]

In the short term maybe, but once the byzantine behemoth-sized body of regulations from the EU gets rolled back then we will be better off out (in the long run). We can, of course. ^borrow^ any good ideas and not have those that aren't so good.

One of the problems with the EU is that, with the European Parliament as a centralised legislation-making body, it makes an attractive target for lobbyists and such like.

The same problem with lobbyists exists with Westminster.

 

[NSEFAN]

What are the ideas that aren't so good?

Perhaps environmental regulations and product safety standards. Awful meddling things that prevent honest companies from being competitive.

In all seriousness, if we have to become best buddies with the USA we may well have to lower our standards in order to be competitive.

 

[Groningen]

So Lord Heseltine was sacked after voting for and helping to pass a plan to give Parliament, and not Downing Street, the final say over Brexit.