Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[BestWestern]

You undermine your point by such sexist assumptions. GTR is the most incompetent organisation (in any sector) that I have ever encountered, but let's not descend to 1970s stereotypes.

I'm not out to please the politically correct brigade, I think the post is clear enough despite the casual lingo.

 

[redbutton]

I'm not out to please the politically correct brigade, I think the post is clear enough despite the casual lingo.

Also, as much as I'd like to see equality in the driving grade, statistically it's still overwhelmingly male. I'd say it's not an unfair assumption that the crewmembers going home will, in fact, be blokes.

Though, it could also be said that such language serves to reinforce the popular attitude that women need not apply or are somehow less qualified than men.

I think both views have merit.

Anyway, back on topic- I've only ever been released more than two hours early as a quid pro quo for doing the PM a favour like staying late or coming in early some other time. But it's certainly not the rule, and being released early is never to be expected.

 

[Goldfish62]

But its a good way of making staff look even more lazy in the eyes of 'normals' isnt it, the fact its a complete lie doesnt seem to matter because some still seem to believe it!

That's quite fashionable at the moment, particularly in the US.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Twenty three years on the railway this year and in all that time I was only once sent home after four hours. It was winter 2013/14, there had been a big storm overnight, I booked on at around 0330 and was sent home at 0730 as no trains were running due to numerous trees on various routes. When I left there were approximately twenty five other crew awaiting instructions.

More often than not when I have a spare job it morphs into a running turn with up to two hours overtime added on the end. If I do book on and have no work I'll go home no earlier than two hours before my book off time provided there's no disruption and there is at least one other spare person in the depot.

As a matter of fact my 'spare' job on Monday is now a two trips to London with an hours overtime!

 

[coxxy]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

I would love to be able to go home after sitting spare for 3 hours... please double check your information before posting as myself, and I'm sure many others will tell you this does not happen... at my depot, at most 1 hour early. And this is only usually because you can't complete another run somewhere before your finish time.

 

[HowardGWR]

deleted

 

[HowardGWR]

Given the (newish) heading of this thread, is there any discussion between ASLEF and GTR about a possibly improved offer? I've not read anything, but perhaps I missed it.

 

[redbutton]

Given the (newish) heading of this thread, is there any discussion between ASLEF and GTR about a possibly improved offer? I've not read anything, but perhaps I missed it.

There have been sporadic discussions over the past two weeks or so. Reports are that they have been productive, but no details have been released as far as I'm aware.

 

[HH]

Given the (newish) heading of this thread, is there any discussion between ASLEF and GTR about a possibly improved offer? I've not read anything, but perhaps I missed it.

I thought someone already reported this, but AFAIK ASLEF and GTR are in talks.

I tried thinking about where this might go and was stumped. It basically needs to be something that ASLEF can persuade the drivers is meaningful, but that GTR can persuade DfT is not losing any ground on DCO. Good luck to them in coming up with this imaginary beast..

 

[redbutton]

I thought someone already reported this, but AFAIK ASLEF and GTR are in talks.

I tried thinking about where this might go and was stumped. It basically needs to be something that ASLEF can persuade the drivers is meaningful, but that GTR can persuade DfT is not losing any ground on DCO. Good luck to them in coming up with this imaginary beast..

I don't think it needs to be a fundamental change. They only need to win over about 6% more drivers than before. There are quite a few drivers for whom the agreement was sound in principle, but they didn't believe it would be enforceable with language so vague and ambiguous in places. Others voted no simply on the principle that when haggling, you never accept the initial offer. So I think that only minor changes to the wording of the document would be enough to get it through.

I suspect that's why the negotiations haven't been as intense as the first round: they're just polishing it at this point.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think it needs to be a fundamental change. They only need to win over about 6% more drivers than before. There are quite a few drivers for whom the agreement was sound in principle, but they didn't believe it would be enforceable with language so vague and ambiguous in places. Others voted no simply on the principle that when haggling, you never accept the initial offer. So I think that only minor changes to the wording of the document would be enough to get it through.

I suspect that's why the negotiations haven't been as intense as the first round: they're just polishing it at this point.

Yes, I would hope so too. Isn't it likely to end up as just a bit of fine tuning to that list of 'exceptional' circumstances ?. Not much evidence that ASLEF members are desperately upset at the plans to date.

 

[plymothian]

And a larger financial incentive ...?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Larger? As far as I'm aware, the initial offer had no financial incentive at all. If you think this dispute is about 'financial incentives' maybe try educating yourself on this dispute.

 

[sarahj]

Yes, I would hope so too. Isn't it likely to end up as just a bit of fine tuning to that list of 'exceptional' circumstances ?. Not much evidence that ASLEF members are desperately upset at the plans to date.

You must hear things from a different depot than me.

 

[Carlisle]

You must hear things from a different depot than me.

The Interviews heard during last saturdays 'Save our NHS' rally, left one under no illusion of the commitment of some trade unionists towards widespread coordinated industrial action in aid of a multitude of causes

 

[AlterEgo]

Larger? As far as I'm aware, the initial offer had no financial incentive at all. If you think this dispute is about 'financial incentives' maybe try educating yourself on this dispute.

There was no financial incentive to current drivers on Southern, only a promise to give first priority to laid-off freight drivers for any future roles.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for replies. I would have thought that the ASLEF leadership would have sounded out the sticking points of the objectors and would go back to negotiations accordingly. If the views of the objectors were 'no DOO', then I would have thought that the leadership would attempt to convince the just under a third, who did not express an opinion, last time, to express one, this time.

 

[HH]

I suspect that's why the negotiations haven't been as intense as the first round: they're just polishing it at this point.

You know what they say about polishing and turds...

But maybe you're right; it will just be the same deal as last time with "go faster stripes".

 

[redbutton]

Yes, I would hope so too. Isn't it likely to end up as just a bit of fine tuning to that list of 'exceptional' circumstances ?. Not much evidence that ASLEF members are desperately upset at the plans to date.

I don't think there will be any real change to the list, just more precise wording to make the narrow intent of each exception clearer, and perhaps a definition of what "late notice" means.

You must hear things from a different depot than me.

I do indeed. That's one of the reasons I think that London metro, mainline, and the coast routes should be three separate TOCs. Each has different needs from the other two.

But yeah, I can't see any circumstances under which the coastal depots will be satisfied with whatever deal eventually comes out. If the next attempt passes, it'll almost certainly be metro drivers (who already do full DOO with no second crew) that tip the vote over the 50%+1 mark.

There was no financial incentive to current drivers on Southern, only a promise to give first priority to laid-off freight drivers for any future roles.

The freight driver thing was unrelated to the DOO issue, it was just something that was previously agreed verbally but they wanted to get in writing while everyone was in the same room. One is not contingent on the other, or so the drivers have been told. I personally don't think it should have been included in the same document, since it gives the appearance of selling out Southern to save freight jobs.

You know what they say about polishing and turds...

But maybe you're right; it will just be the same deal as last time with "go faster stripes".

Yeah, perhaps.

 

[Groningen]

So today there are (according to National Rail) Industrial actions on Merseyrail, Northern and Southern.

 

[sarahj]

I don't think there will be any real change to the list, just more precise wording to make the narrow intent of each exception clearer, and perhaps a definition of what "late notice" means.



I do indeed. That's one of the reasons I think that London metro, mainline, and the coast routes should be three separate TOCs. Each has different needs from the other two.

But yeah, I can't see any circumstances under which the coastal depots will be satisfied with whatever deal eventually comes out. If the next attempt passes, it'll almost certainly be metro drivers (who already do full DOO with no second crew) that tip the vote over the 50%+1 mark.



The freight driver thing was unrelated to the DOO issue, it was just something that was previously agreed verbally but they wanted to get in writing while everyone was in the same room. One is not contingent on the other, or so the drivers have been told. I personally don't think it should have been included in the same document, since it gives the appearance of selling out Southern to save freight jobs.



Yeah, perhaps.

Yes, the first result was a wonder, as it was thought that the metro drivers might tip the balance. One tipping point was at some depots they had seen all their conductor colleagues sacked and turned into OBS's (Vic)
The funny thing is the metro drivers used to say how much more relaxing it felt when they went onto main line routes that had a conductor, they could concentrate on the driving, and that's why they voted for action the first time round. The next vote had a poor turnout, and numbers of new drivers in the metro area will always tip the balance. Plus living in London for many is of course expensive and with the OT ban and strikes. Many hate the job, hate trains and hate the punters and do it for the money, so any less money will tip some over...

 

[BestWestern]

So today there are (according to National Rail) Industrial actions on Merseyrail, Northern and Southern.

Indeed. The railway family is fighting for survival. There will be much, much more of this to come. Unless the DfT want to stop playing their games of lies and ignorance of course, but sadly that isn't likely.

 

[kw12]

Yes, the first result was a wonder, as it was thought that the metro drivers might tip the balance. One tipping point was at some depots they had seen all their conductor colleagues sacked and turned into OBS's (Vic)
The funny thing is the metro drivers used to say how much more relaxing it felt when they went onto main line routes that had a conductor, they could concentrate on the driving, and that's why they voted for action the first time round. The next vote had a poor turnout, and numbers of new drivers in the metro area will always tip the balance. Plus living in London for many is of course expensive and with the OT ban and strikes. Many hate the job, hate trains and hate the punters and do it for the money, so any less money will tip some over...

The turnout in the second ASLEF ballot was 72.7% (693 ballot papers returned of 953 papers despatched), compared with the 77% (722 of 937) turnout for the first ASLEF vote. Is this turnout really deemed to be a "poor turnout"? This turnout was higher than the 66.7% turnout in the recent RMT ballot of its Northern Rail guards and drivers (837 papers returned of 1254 sent out). It was also higher than the turnout in the Brexit Referundum (72.2%) and in the last five General Elections (59.2% - 71.4%).

 

[redbutton]

Yes, the first result was a wonder, as it was thought that the metro drivers might tip the balance. One tipping point was at some depots they had seen all their conductor colleagues sacked and turned into OBS's (Vic)

That's true, but it's so very unlikely (I don't like to use the word impossible) that the full conductor's role will be restored. At least not on this non-franchise concession, with HMG pulling the strings. I think that we all need to meaningfully engage to find a way forward, which will undoubtedly involve compromises from all parties. ASLEF was able to achieve staffing for the OBS role to be guaranteed at a 2:1 ratio without any caveats about "until the end of the franchise", which was a big compromise from the company, and was more than RMT seemed to be able to get- assuming they would even recognise the OBS role which to date they haven't.

The funny thing is the metro drivers used to say how much more relaxing it felt when they went onto main line routes that had a conductor, they could concentrate on the driving, and that's why they voted for action the first time round.

Myself included. I still think that's true, and I find it reassuring to know there's someone else on board who's got my back and I've got his or hers. A crew in every sense.

That said, I honestly don't have an issue operating the doors as long as I'm provided the equipment and procedures to do it safely, which hasn't happened yet. But that's not the totality of the value a conductor provides: Even when DOO, I would still want a fully-trained crewmember on board who can independently handle any situation when I've got my hands full dealing with driving the train and communications to the signaller and Control. In the airline business it's called Crew Resource Management- when one person tries to do it all, stuff gets missed. Right now, the OBS is more of a hindrance than a help due to their woeful lack of training, and I feel that the proposed agreement didn't recognise that. If the next proposal does address that, along with stronger wording on exceptional circumstances, then I'm sorry but I think I would vote yes.

The other reason I voted for action initially was that I found it insulting how the DfT and the company approached the situation so aggressively, insisting that we either get on board or get out of the way. How can anyone negotiate in good faith with a hard deadline arbitrarily set?

The next vote had a poor turnout, and numbers of new drivers in the metro area will always tip the balance.

None of the votes had a poor turnout. The referendum on the proposed deal had the lowest, and even then nearly 3/4 of eligible drivers returned a paper.

Plus living in London for many is of course expensive and with the OT ban and strikes. Many hate the job, hate trains and hate the punters and do it for the money, so any less money will tip some over..

Yes, there are a handful who live above their means (without OT), but not really enough of them to make a difference I don't think. Yes, there are also a few who just do this job for the headline salary and practically unlimited overtime. Certainly not what I would call "many".

If we were talking about an American-style walkout where we all would have been off the job until the deal is signed, then I might agree with you. But I hardly think the situation was that dire for most.

 

[HH]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39284066

Apparently ASLEF have reached an agreement.

 

[Wookiee]

It's like deja vu all over again!

 

[455driver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39284066

Apparently ASLEF have reached an agreement.

Lets wait and see if its acceptible to the drivers.

 

[theblackwatch]

Lets wait and see if its acceptible to the drivers.

Will be interesting to see how different it is to the previous deal.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Will be interesting to see how different it is to the previous deal.

From what I've seen elsewhere it seems to be near as dammit exactly the same except for an additional commitment for the OBS to have PTS training. Nothing about route knowledge though, and PTS isn't always that useful without route knowledge.

 

[danbarnstall]

There is a copy of the agreement floating around on twitter if you check ASLEFs mentions. OBS will be PTS trained as mentioned above, slight tightening of the circumstances in which trains can run DOO and further upgrades to CCTV / Monitors. Vote was tightish last time, I think this might just get accepted by members.