Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HH]

While Wilkinson is an alien, so could be any age.

 

[redbutton]

Southern spares sometimes do end up "sitting", and staff specifically diagrammed on "Cover" turns are quite likely to. "Cover" turns cannot usually be overlaid with another duty in advance, meaning that the person booked "Cover" is usually only to be used to cover emerging issues on the day that they're on duty. Those crew on "Spare" turns are moved around in advance to cover shortages from long-term sickness, annual or ad-hoc leave, etc. - but if that's not needed, they will turn up for nominal hours on the day, and will indeed "sit around" doing nothing, until such time as they may be needed.

I'd hate to have to disagree with you, but at my depot spares rarely sit for an entire shift. They are nearly always given at least half a diagram from the no cover list, most of the time on daily alterations before they even book on. The only times I can recall sitting for an entire day are when one of the London termini or the other is shut for engineering works. Even then, they've had us cross-covering other depots' work.

The situation is different with the newer drivers who don't sign all their routes yet, so maybe that gives the impression that lots of spare drivers are sitting when I'm not sure they should count.

 

[HH]

That's not what spare means on the railway, at least not at the company I work for. "Spare" crew are the ones who aren't assigned a specific diagram on the main roster. When the weekly roster is drafted, spares are given any work within +/- 3 hours of their time that the rostered person can't do for whatever reason. (E.g. Sick, Off track, Training, etc). Only if all the rostered crew are available to do their work will the spares be left to sit.

If you have just the right amount of spares, then all the work will be covered and nobody will be left sitting. If you don't have enough spares (the situation at GTR historically), then work remains uncovered and trains get cancelled because "a member of train crew is unavailable."

You can also have a situation where you have enough spares in total but they aren't on at the right times or properly balanced across the week. I've seen plenty of cases of this, because it doesn't appear to be properly understood by those responsible.

In addition to spares, there are also crew assigned to "cover" turns, which are diagrams that contain no work. This is so that you have at least one person who is sitting on the day in case of any short-notice absence.

Usually it's done to cover performance, so not just to cover for absence, but also ready to step up, for instance, if a member of crew is not going to be available for a service because they have been delayed on a previous one. They are invaluable in the right circumstances, but some operators use them instead of spares and they are simply not as flexible. Again, I can only put this down to a lack of understanding by operations managers.

I believe that the primary reason for going from guards to OBS is so that the company can continue understaffing without having to cancel trains and pay the fines anymore. Lower headcount + fewer fines = more profits!

I thought we'd put this old wives' tale to bed by now; the benefit of the staff savings is going to DfT and thence to the Treasury, because it was included in the bid. DfT will not allow GTR to make any savings beyond this unless it gets a payback; with the current political flak that seems about as likely as Pete Wilkinson joining the RMT.

 

[HH]

All depots (or groups of depots, in some cases) will have a regular quota of both "Cover" and "spare" staff...

All depots have spares; the use of cover turns is not universal however. Even where they do exist they often are very specific. Global use of cover turns is not efficient. I know of a depot where there are 2 cover turns for 8 working turns, for example.

 

[XDM]

All depots have spares; the use of cover turns is not universal however. Even where they do exist they often are very specific. Global use of cover turns is not efficient. I know of a depot where there are 2 cover turns for 8 working turns, for example.

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

 

[tsr]

I'd hate to have to disagree with you, but at my depot spares rarely sit for an entire shift. They are nearly always given at least half a diagram from the no cover list, most of the time on daily alterations before they even book on. The only times I can recall sitting for an entire day are when one of the London termini or the other is shut for engineering works. Even then, they've had us cross-covering other depots' work.

Yours must be at one of the depots which is still working quite hard, with a tighter establishment figure - I can think of a number of depots where it's unlikely that everyone would always be given a job / part of a job on the daily sheet. When they are, often it's a tiny little bit, like a short hop part way down the mainline halfway through the duty. Cross-cover does seem to be happening more, though.

The situation is different with the newer drivers who don't sign all their routes yet, so maybe that gives the impression that lots of spare drivers are sitting when I'm not sure they should count.

Good point, though that wasn't what I was referring to.

All depots have spares; the use of cover turns is not universal however. Even where they do exist they often are very specific. Global use of cover turns is not efficient. I know of a depot where there are 2 cover turns for 8 working turns, for example.

I think I phrased it badly. By "quota" I really meant "set number". In other words, for each depot/group of depots, there will be some variable number of people who are booked to be Cover and/or spare. I've come across rosters with no spares for a given day, and no Cover turns for a given day. Nothing, it seems, is universal...

 

[455driver]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Where does that happen?

2 hours earlier than your booked finish time is the norm at our place and that is simply because there is no work you can pick up, this is balanced out when they want us to stay on to finish a job off which is over our booked hours!

Please give proper examples of drivers and/or guards going home after working just 2 hours of an 8 hour shift please.

 

[infobleep]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Some would say not employing enough staff, in this case drivers, to run a train service in the first place is crazy as it means trains get cancelled.

 

[LowLevel]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Crikey, we should be so lucky! On the occasions we actually get to sit, which isn't often (more often it's a phone call the day before saying 'I know its out of your day but...' which I'm generally speaking happy to oblige) it's a minimum of 7 hours.

 

[Bellbell]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Really? 2 to 4 hours? Jeez, rosters would have a right giggle if we asked to go home after 2 hours spare.

As much as I disagree with pretty much everything else you've said on this thread, I agree that paying people to go home that soon into a shift is not a good use of resources unless they are at depots where there is genuinely nothing they could do in that time, which seems unlikely. Spare turns (or cover, which we don't have at my depot) are essential for recovering the service and should not be removed as part of cost cutting/increasing productivity but we all need to be sensible about them. It's rare to get one where I work but when we do we also have an agreement that we don't need to stay for the full length of the spare but we are only allowed to go home when there's very little/nothing we could do within what remains of our day. I think that's fair.

 

[tony6499]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Can you provide proof for this ? How many are most ? What depots are you alluding to that this happens ?

 

[HH]

I think I phrased it badly. By "quota" I really meant "set number". In other words, for each depot/group of depots, there will be some variable number of people who are booked to be Cover and/or spare. I've come across rosters with no spares for a given day, and no Cover turns for a given day. Nothing, it seems, is universal...

Yes, the spare ratio. Except that it seems every TOC has a different way of calculating this these days (and some of them make no sense whatsoever). Then, as you intimate, the working turns, spare turns, and other turns, which can include route refresh, safety training, union duties, etc. are spread across the roster. Usually with no recognition that drivers generally prefer to take leave on a Friday and Saturday, rather than a Tuesday and Wednesday.

I've looked at a very large number of manpower plans, diagrams, rosters, links, A&U reports etc. and very few do not contain numerous idiocies. Basically the level of understanding shown by 95% of management in this area ranges from poor to nonexistent. It's no wonder that we see constant driver shortages, reliance on RDW, mucked up training plans, etc. etc. etc.

 

[BestWestern]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

That's just another glaring example of the abject incompetence of your very favourite organisation then, isn't it. No control centre worth their salt would be sending blokes home after three hours. Or are you just on another propaganda airdrop, as usual?

 

[GusB]

If someone is sent home after only a couple of hours, does this still result in a full day's pay for the employee concerned, or are they only paid for the time that they're actually there?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Well Southern is not (or rather until this dispute) subsidised. The reality is of course transport is different to other jobs. In many other places if someone is ill a colleague or colleagues will cover for them. However on transport that is not possible as you cannot drive two trains or two buses etc at once. Airlines have the same issue with the need to have spare crew available.

The reality is that the need for spare people is demonstrated regularly and I dare say if most spares go home after nothing the number of spares is reduced.

 

[HH]

The reality is that the need for spare people is demonstrated regularly and I dare say if most spares go home after nothing the number of spares is reduced.

This is not something that can be done overnight. Or even over many nights. Spare ratios are often agreed with ASLEF, for example.

 

[XDM]

If someone is sent home after only a couple of hours, does this still result in a full day's pay for the employee concerned, or are they only paid for the time that they're actually there?

Full day's pay.

 

[the sniper]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home.

Can anybody more reputable confirm or deny this? I could believe people going home a couple of hours early at most if it were a depot where there were no trips shorter than that and there was more than one person spare, but people being allowed to go two to four hours after starting a spare shift sounds implausible or staggeringly lax on the part of Southern's TCS/Control/Management! What he's written in bold seems far more plausible...

Where I am people will often be allowed to go by the TCS 40 to 60 minutes before their day is up as the shortest trip you can do is 40 minutes. If you're the only person spare though you might not be released early as you could be needed to lock up and dispose of stock, particularly if you're 'last man' spare at night. Going early is at the discretion of the TCS though, so can be considered a give and take thing. If you're someone who never helps the TCS, the TCS will probably 'forget' to call you out to let you go early... Some people are happy to sit to their day rather than go early, as they don't wan't to owe any or certain TCS' a favour.

Getting a spare turn is pretty rare where I am though, as you'll usually be allocated a job instead instead of getting your booked spare turn...

 

[pompeyfan]

At our place spare and cover crew will ring up with 2 hours of their day left and ask if they're needed anymore. I have once gone home after 4 hours but I was only booked for 6 hours and there was a few other spares that day.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

At my depot its used to be 2 hours before (spare turn 08.40 hours) but that has been tightened up probably due to the dispute over DOO to an hour before and if the dispute went work to rule we would all be at depot for the full turn regardless if we can actually do a round trip or not. This would be pretty standard throughout most of the railway.

 

[Dave1987]

If someone is sent home after only a couple of hours, does this still result in a full day's pay for the employee concerned, or are they only paid for the time that they're actually there?

It doesn't happen. Usually it's an hour before your book off time or when there isn't anything control can get you to do within your time left. Not aware of any TOCs that let you go home after 2 hours on spare or cover.

 

[UpTheFront]

6 hours minimum where I'm based. Don't know of anywhere where you would be going home after 2 hours spare!! I think Mr XDM may be fabricating somewhat....

 

[Bromley boy]

6 hours minimum where I'm based. Don't know of anywhere where you would be going home after 2 hours spare!! I think Mr XDM may be fabricating somewhat....

Same at my place. XDM is full of it.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Or are you just on another propaganda airdrop, as usual?

Don't dress it up in flowery language - call it what it is - bare faced lies

 

[theironroad]

Maybe 2 hours before the end of the turn if any other spares.

I've never heard of a depot where you get sent home after 2 hours at work.

I have heard of flight and cabin crew who don't even have to go into work when spare, but must be ready to report at their base within 60 minutes if phoned.

 

[Deepgreen]

That's just another glaring example of the abject incompetence of your very favourite organisation then, isn't it. No control centre worth their salt would be sending blokes home after three hours. Or are you just on another propaganda airdrop, as usual?

You undermine your point by such sexist assumptions. GTR is the most incompetent organisation (in any sector) that I have ever encountered, but let's not descend to 1970s stereotypes.

 

[muz379]

Most spares are allowed to go home early after 2 to 4 hours if they are not used & someone else has come in to cover, or if there is no duty they could cover in the time left before they are scheduled to go home. It is a major reason why rail staff productivity has not increased. Regularly paying people to go home after 3 hours especially when the industry is heavily subsidised is crazy.

Posts like this just further the argument that you have no idea what you are talking about and very limited experience in the rail industry .

IF which I suspect is probably not the case people are being sent home after being booked on for 2 hours then the TOC clearly needs to look at its own resource management . No train crew nor unions can really dispute people being kept to their booked time on spare turns , indeed in the past I have seen shift managers who have had arguments with certain members of train crew keep them to their booked time as some perceived revenge .

 

[455driver]

Same at my place. XDM is full of it.

You appear to mave missed a 'sh' from your post.

 

[455driver]

Posts like this just further the argument that you have no idea what you are talking about and very limited experience in the rail industry.

But its a good way of making staff look even more lazy in the eyes of 'normals' isnt it, the fact its a complete lie doesnt seem to matter because some still seem to believe it!

 

[tsr]

I don't think I've ever heard of a Resource Manager at Southern (formerly Production Manager - broadly the same things as TCSs, et al) sending people home after 2 hours. Indeed, there have recently been spates of orders from "on high" that both Spare and Cover staff should stay until their booked time, and as someone has pointed out earlier, although it may not be expected, this is entirely in accordance with the rules.

The unwritten rule of thumb for Southern is that Spare/Cover staff will be sent home when there aren't any further trains within their hours which they could get to, work and then return to depot from working; or around 1 hour prior to booking off time; often these times will be roughly the same. It varies somewhat - but the idea of 2 hours on duty is laughable.