Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HH]

We don't know why the driver was driving in the way he was...

Agreed. Moreover, I would put money on the fact that it wasn't because he wanted to make the passengers late.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Agreed. Moreover, I would put money on the fact that it wasn't because he wanted to make the passengers late.

Nice one.

Never really crossed my mind as it goes.I know I don't.I just drive my trains to the conditions and don't spend all my time thinking about the time.

Do you mean in spite? Can't see the point in it,myself and I've never suspected other drivers of doing it.I just get on the train when it turns up whether it's early or late and don't give it a seconds thought.

I would take the reason for me being like this is i'm on the inside and can understand why trains run late anyway and very rarely if ever would it be because a driver doing it out of spite...More like a passenger pulling a passcom out of spite.

It's strange how much differently it is seen by from the passenger side...reminds me of a story a driver told me recently.He was driving into Shepperton at 15mph or under and someone on the platform shouted "take your time mate".To which he replied."Ok will do."

Only to be met with verbal abuse.

 

[pompeyfan]

Can I correct you tactfully. Almost all Southern trains rostered for an OBS have one for most of the run. On strike days it is fewer,but I believe at least 50% of Guards/OBS work during strikes,although many are not RMT members. Can I tactfully suggest you qualify your info if it is something you are not sure of.
A couple of months ago you said the unused freight siding beside Fratton station had been converted for 12 car(DOO equipped)377 units. I am afraid that was a lie,obviously unintentional,when I saw the pic a colleague had taken to show the sidings without any third rail in January & exactly as it had been for the last 5 years. We reply on facts here,specially about Southern DOO & new facilities for DOO trains,not fiction.

I am aware that there should be a 2nd member of staff on all previously guarded southern services, but was lead to believe by multiple sources that there was no 2nd crew member on the fateful train, I've already apologised for posting incorrect information.

In regard to Fratton, I'm pretty certain I never claimed that the works had been compleated, I did however say that the groundwork etc to electrify the sidings so they can hold displaced 450s from the introduction of 707s. 377s aren't stabled in Fratton and I never suggested they were, don't forget that we all work on facts here at UKRF.

 

[Surreytraveller]

To be honest, these OBSs really have not got a clue what they are doing. GTR have not given them any training, they do not know where they or their train is going, and it is probably more dangerous to have them on the train than just the driver.

 

[JamesTT]

To be honest, these OBSs really have not got a clue what they are doing. GTR have not given them any training, they do not know where they or their train is going, and it is probably more dangerous to have them on the train than just the driver.

If the plan is to do away with the majority of OBS staff. The head sheds in Southern have played a blinder. They must have known RMT would not discuss terms of the role, So management can introduce a role with minimal training and conditions

 

[Robertj21a]

To be honest, these OBSs really have not got a clue what they are doing. GTR have not given them any training, they do not know where they or their train is going, and it is probably more dangerous to have them on the train than just the driver.

I think you will find that your comments are quite inaccurate. Those OBS newly recruited have certainly gone through all the initial training for their role before they appear on any train.

 

[tsr]

We reply on facts here,specially about Southern DOO & new facilities for DOO trains,not fiction.

That's a bit rich coming from you... most of the time, what you've said about DOO bears little resemblance with the realities of operations on the ground...

To be honest, these OBSs really have not got a clue what they are doing. GTR have not given them any training, they do not know where they or their train is going, and it is probably more dangerous to have them on the train than just the driver.

I think you will find that your comments are quite inaccurate. Those OBS newly recruited have certainly gone through all the initial training for their role before they appear on any train.

Surreytraveller is sadly not inaccurate in a number of cases. There is a large variation in the amount of training given to those in OBS roles - some have had full conductor training (obviously), making them almost over-qualified for the basics of the job as it currently stands; others are ex-revenue staff, with a lot of on-train experience with customers to draw from, as well as shadowing sessions with fully-qualified conductors; yet there are still some who've only had a minimal amount of training of just a few days, and can't manage the very basics, such as reading a diagram, ticket sales and checking, knowing the correct points for announcements, being in an appropriate place to check the platform for assistance needs, or even the difference between classes of rolling stock and whether or not they're allowed to work them (!!!).

The basic documentation which OBSs are given is riddled with things which need further detail, which only thorough training could explain properly, and is some way short of what new conductor entrants were given, even within the last year. If this is a reflection on what they may have also managed to be told in a classroom for just 3 or 4 days before being sent out on their own, it's a very bad sign indeed.

If the plan is to do away with the majority of OBS staff. The head sheds in Southern have played a blinder. They must have known RMT would not discuss terms of the role, So management can introduce a role with minimal training and conditions

This is one of the most curious things about the whole situation; GTR have, in a rare series of events which is to their credit, written a number of letters and suchlike to their frontline employees, detailing how much they regret that the RMT will not work with them to set conditions for the OBS role. Having said all this, in documents now circulated far and wide, it would be hard for them to refuse to collaborate with the RMT to set basic training and rostering standards, for example. But the RMT will not even acknowledge a new grade of staff for whose jobs they were fighting, under a much better job description (ie. "Conductor") up until 1 January. Effectively, as soon as they became more vulnerable, the RMT has washed their hands of any legitimate way to intervene in the management of the working conditions for them. I'm not saying the RMT leadership should condone or approve the role of OBSs as it stands now, but they now have very few ways of actually holding GTR to account, other than just calling the odd 24-hour walkout, which now generally doesn't really affect much of the service...

 

[pompeyfan]

It's now a slippery slope I'd imagine. If they embrace southerns OBS then they can't fight the conversion of guards to OBS on other networks. How do they now protect OBSs as well as guards and get the best for both grades without contradicting themselves.

 

[Robertj21a]

Surreytraveller is sadly not inaccurate in a number of cases. There is a large variation in the amount of training given to those in OBS roles - some have had full conductor training (obviously), making them almost over-qualified for the basics of the job as it currently stands; others are ex-revenue staff, with a lot of on-train experience with customers to draw from, as well as shadowing sessions with fully-qualified conductors; yet there are still some who've only had a minimal amount of training of just a few days, and can't manage the very basics, such as reading a diagram, ticket sales and checking, knowing the correct points for announcements, being in an appropriate place to check the platform for assistance needs, or even the difference between classes of rolling stock and whether or not they're allowed to work them (!!!).

The basic documentation which OBSs are given is riddled with things which need further detail, which only thorough training could explain properly, and is some way short of what new conductor entrants were given, even within the last year. If this is a reflection on what they may have also managed to be told in a classroom for just 3 or 4 days before being sent out on their own, it's a very bad sign indeed.


..

Thank you, as usual, for the added clarification. My understanding is that the newest OBS (recruited externally) are supposed to have completed the initial training before appearing on any train - but you're highlighting that this initial training itself may well be fairly inadequate to fulfil the role competently. I hope this gets fed back so that remedial action can be taken asap.

 

[Dave1987]

Thank you, as usual, for the added clarification. My understanding is that the newest OBS (recruited externally) are supposed to have completed the initial training before appearing on any train - but you're highlighting that this initial training itself may well be fairly inadequate to fulfil the role competently. I hope this gets fed back so that remedial action can be taken asap.

So you accuse others of posting incorrect info yet you don't actually know yourself whether that info is incorrect :roll:

 

[Robertj21a]

So you accuse others of posting incorrect info yet you don't actually know yourself whether that info is incorrect :roll:

On the contrary, as far as I'm aware, my post was accurate. The OBS recruited externally have completed their initial training before being let loose on the trains. It's since been suggested that this initial training may well be inadequate.

 

[BestWestern]

It's now a slippery slope I'd imagine. If they embrace southerns OBS then they can't fight the conversion of guards to OBS on other networks. How do they now protect OBSs as well as guards and get the best for both grades without contradicting themselves.

Is the RMT allowing union membership for the OBS grade?

 

[AndyW33]

Is the RMT allowing union membership for the OBS grade?

How could they not, given that many people now in the OBS grade have been compulsorily transferred into it from roles as Guards or RPIs, and would most likely have already been RMT members?

 

[BestWestern]

How could they not, given that many people now in the OBS grade have been compulsorily transferred into it from roles as Guards or RPIs, and would most likely have already been RMT members?

I presume they wouldn't be obliged to represent anybody that they didn't want to. It would, however, be highly unusual for them to turn away business, so to speak!

 

[Wookiee]

There are many stations adjacent to a controlled level crossing. Stopping trains will often approach the platform with the protecting signal at danger. This is in order to prevent excessive delay to road traffic. At certain locations such as Cosham and Bedhampton, there is a piece of TPWS equipment known as an Overspeed Sensor (OSS) on the approach to the signal. This is there to mitigate against a train approaching too fast to be able to stop at the signal and colliding with users of the level crossing. At the mentioned locations, the 'trigger' speed to have a TPWS brake demand is 12.5 mph. This would be treated as an operational incident, with the driver likely relieved of duty and an OTMR download taken. Company instructions require the driver to be doing below 10 mph, with 7-8 mph recommended to allow for the train not retarding as expected or an inaccurate speedometer. Yes it appears painfully slow as you crawl in to the platform, even more so when the signal clears to a proceed aspect immediately after you have reduced the train speed to comply with the OSS. This most definitely not due to poor driving technique, in fact it is very much the opposite!
I don't sign the route at Betchworth so I do not know the exact set-up there but I suspect it may be similar to the above examples.

Thanks for this. I've always wondered why stopping trains approach Cosham so slowly from the east.

 

[WatcherZero]

How could they not, given that many people now in the OBS grade have been compulsorily transferred into it from roles as Guards or RPIs, and would most likely have already been RMT members?

Every member of staff except one who took early retirement indeed transferred.

 

[theblackwatch]

Having been away for a few days, and having had a quick look through this thread, I can't see anything about what steps ASLEF plans to take next. Have I missed something while I've been on holiday, or have they gone rather quiet?

 

[wfrank]

That's a bit rich coming from you... most of the time, what you've said about DOO bears little resemblance with the realities of operations on the ground....

tsr is not being fair. I took a whole sunday some time go to read all the southern DOO postings & I found XDM's information about what was happening & the expansion of DOO accurate & in advance of other posters who seem to operate from armchairs as I have read him say. Some members have suggested he is a high up railway manager, but he does not seem to have said that. I appreciate his postings & he has turned out to be right all the time. He converted me to DOO,even though I have a relative who, as a driver, is still sitting on the fence,although he agrees the safety scares are exactly that,RMT scares.

 

[Robertj21a]

tsr is not being fair. I took a whole sunday some time go to read all the southern DOO postings & I found XDM's information about what was happening & the expansion of DOO accurate & in advance of other posters who seem to operate from armchairs as I have read him say. Some members have suggested he is a high up railway manager, but he does not seem to have said that. I appreciate his postings & he has turned out to be right all the time. He converted me to DOO,even though I have a relative who, as a driver, is still sitting on the fence,although he agrees the safety scares are exactly that,RMT scares.

Are you XDM in disguise ?

Would it be a good idea to re-read all the postings from other people so that you get a better understanding ?

 

[HH]

I wonder in what sort of chair wfrank was sitting when he read this thread.

Does anyone really think that XDM is a "high up" [sic] railway manager?

 

[HLE]

My guess is he's something to do with the railway or is close to a manager/control/office bod.

Despite having a completely different opinion to him, I respect and value his input to the thread.

 

[HLE]

duplicate post

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder in what sort of chair wfrank was sitting when he read this thread.

Probably the exact same chair as XDM. Same writing style, same lack of spaces after commas, always in complete agreement with XDM. Nailed on.

 

[hwl]

My guess is he's something to do with the railway or is close to a manager/control/office bod.

Despite having a completely different opinion to him, I respect and value his input to the thread.

Agreed some of what he says can only be with internal knowledge.

 

[BestWestern]

tsr is not being fair. I took a whole sunday some time go to read all the southern DOO postings & I found XDM's information about what was happening & the expansion of DOO accurate & in advance of other posters who seem to operate from armchairs as I have read him say. Some members have suggested he is a high up railway manager, but he does not seem to have said that. I appreciate his postings & he has turned out to be right all the time. He converted me to DOO,even though I have a relative who, as a driver, is still sitting on the fence,although he agrees the safety scares are exactly that,RMT scares.

Ooh, there's a club!

 

[Robertj21a]

Ooh, there's a club!

But not one that many others would wish to join.

 

[HH]

Agreed some of what he says can only be with internal knowledge.

I only had to go back a couple of pages to find this:

Many TOC's ask their drivers to approach red platform starters with great caution. It may even be in the rule book.

Let me point out a couple of things. Firstly, there's a grocer's apostrophe in TOCs. I would be very surprised if anyone high up would make such a grammatical error. Secondly, he appears unsure about the rule book. None of the senior managers I know would write such a thing - they'd find out, not mention it, or bluff.

There's a host of other things that signified to me that XDM is a wannabe, rather than a senior railway manager. But who knows at GTR these days?

 

[hwl]

I only had to go back a couple of pages to find this:



Let me point out a couple of things. Firstly, there's a grocer's apostrophe in TOCs. I would be very surprised if anyone high up would make such a grammatical error. Secondly, he appears unsure about the rule book. None of the senior managers I know would write such a thing - they'd find out, not mention it, or bluff.

There's a host of other things that signified to me that XDM is a wannabe, rather than a senior railway manager. But who knows at GTR these days?

I definitely wouldn't say senior that was his biggest mistake, I had forgotten about that some earlier comments were better.

A fairly large number of people should know GTR recommends 8mph (which effectively in an electrostar means 6mph) to avoid potentially triggering the grid at 10mph (but some grids are set higher )

 

[redbutton]

I definitely wouldn't say senior that was his biggest mistake, I had forgotten about that some earlier comments were better.

Considering his or her username is XDM, which if you say it out loud is "ex-DM", DM being a common abbreviation for Driver Manager, I think that may be a clue. Considering that Southern driver line managers are not required to have ever driven a train or even worked in a safety-critical role, XDM's sycophantic tone and "loose" knowledge of the rulebook don't surprise me.

A fairly large number of people should know GTR recommends 8mph (which effectively in an electrostar means 6mph) to avoid potentially triggering the grid at 10mph (but some grids are set higher )

I do believe TL recommend 8, while SN recommend 6. SN/GX and TL/GN still have separate operational management, it's only some head office functions that were merged.

 

[the sniper]

tsr is not being fair. I took a whole sunday some time go to read all the southern DOO postings & I found XDM's information about what was happening & the expansion of DOO accurate & in advance of other posters who seem to operate from armchairs as I have read him say. Some members have suggested he is a high up railway manager, but he does not seem to have said that. I appreciate his postings & he has turned out to be right all the time. He converted me to DOO,even though I have a relative who, as a driver, is still sitting on the fence,although he agrees the safety scares are exactly that,RMT scares.

Well I guess there's somebody for everyone... Unless you are XDM, I think it might be worth considering why XDM is one of the least respected contributors on this thread/forum. Certainly not just by anti-DCO/DOO posters. Most reasonable people have called out his rhetoric in the past or just come to ignore him. Yeah XDM has a little bit of Southern knowledge, but his post are so consistently awash with anti-RMT and Guard sentiment and filled with pro-GTR propaganda, I don't know how any sensible person could value his posts objectively.

It's particularly ironic that you call out TSR for not being fair when he has consistently been one of the most sensible, balanced and informative sources of information on this thread regarding the DOO roll out on Southern...

Considering his or her username is XDM, which if you say it out loud is "ex-DM", DM being a common abbreviation for Driver Manager, I think that may be a clue. Considering that Southern driver line managers are not required to have ever driven a train or even worked in a safety-critical role, XDM's sycophantic tone and "loose" knowledge of the rulebook don't surprise me.

I've presumed this for a long time. It doesn't really explain his hatred for Guards, but otherwise the glove fits. If this is the case, his infatuation with the driving grade is quite amusing.