Threw my ticket in the bin before i got of the train, officer stopped me

[Samina]

Hi, last week I was travelling from university to home, I had bought a train ticket from the station as I travel 3/4 times a week I always end up throwing away my tickets on the train before I get off as they never ever check the tickets when I get off the train. So last week as normal I chucked away my ticket when I walked out of the station the officers were standing outside and checking tickets they stopped me I said I chucked it away they asked me how I bought which was with cash as if I had bought it on my card i would've gave it to them to check they also asked it when I bought the ticket, they also took down my details such as name address and asked me to sign at the bottom of my statement. He told me to expect a letter within 2-4 weeks on which will be my statement which I have to sign, I asked the officer what if they don't believe me will I be getting a fine or anything he said there's nothing to worry about and just sign the letter. However I am getting really anxious and worried as I have looked up others stories and they have been fined and some have even been given a criminal record. If I am fined I am totally fine with that as I admit it was my mistake I should've not threw the ticket away however I really don't want a criminal record as I never do anything like this. Please help and give me advice on what to do

 

[Kite159]

I'm assuming due to the word Northern in the Tags you were travelling on a Northern service?

 

[soil]

I doubt they will believe you ever had a ticket in the first place TBH. Paid cash, no proof whatsoever.

What was the journey?

 

[yorkie]

If I am fined I am totally fine with that as I admit it was my mistake I should've not threw the ticket away however I really don't want a criminal record as I never do anything like this.

If they prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws and you plead guilty it will just be a fine (plus costs).

If they prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act and you plead guilty it will be a greater fine, and additionally a criminal record.

They may agree to (or even offer) an out of court settlement though.

Have you seen our Fares & Ticketing Guide?

10.9 Prosecutions

Train Operating Companies have specific legislation they can use to prosecute passengers. Some common examples of offences include:

• Travelling (or travelling over-distance) with the intention of avoiding paying the fare due (or part of the fare due)
• Failure to produce a valid ticket
• Failure to give name and address
• Altering tickets

The first of these is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA). Merely failing to produce a ticket (no evidence of intent) is an offence under the Railway Byelaws. Failure to give name and address could come under either the RoRA or Byelaws, as appropriate. Altering tickets is also a Byelaw offence, though in serious cases it could be considered Fraud.

Offences under the Regulation of Railways Act result are recordable offences and a conviction will be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

Offences under the Railway Byelaws are not recordable offences and a conviction should not be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

For more information please see Section 8 - Legal

 

[Fare-Cop]

I agree with soil, from the details given in your post:

i) You had made a journey by train and admitted this to the inspector who spoke to you

ii) you were leaving the railway when you were asked to show a ticket for your journey

iii) you failed to produce a ticket for examination of validity when asked

It might help if we knew which TOC you were travelling with because some are more likely to prosecute than others, but either way, it is possible that you might be able to achieve an agreed settlement

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is Northern and you haven't done it before most likely you will get an £80 "penalty fake" settlement offer, which you should pay, and next time ensure you keep your ticket until you have left the station (completely, Northern have been known to mount inspections at the exits to the station, not just the barrier).

If you are asked to explain, be honest and apologetic.

 

[Samina]

I'm assuming due to the word Northern in the Tags you were travelling on a Northern service?

Yes I was using northern rail

 

[Samina]

I was travelling with Northern Rail and I travelled from Bradford Interchange to Rochdale, i hope they settle it with a fine as i really cannot afford to get a criminal record I'm only 19 years old it would affect my future

 

[soil]

I was travelling with Northern Rail and I travelled from Bradford Interchange to Rochdale, i hope they settle it with a fine as i really cannot afford to get a criminal record I'm only 19 years old it would affect my future

it's not a fine, it would be an out-of-court settlement. You are paying them to keep it out of court (where you could be fined)

 

[jon0844]

Why couldn't you go back to the bin and retrieve it, having said what ticket it was, how much it was and when you got it? The ticket would verify all of these things (perhaps even the ticket machine used, which you could also have said)?

 

[Dai Corner]

Why couldn't you go back to the bin and retrieve it, having said what ticket it was, how much it was and when you got it? The ticket would verify all of these things (perhaps even the ticket machine used, which you could also have said)?

Because the bin was a mile or two away, on the train.

 

[cuccir]

Samina - you will probably receive a letter from Northern Rail asking for your version of events. Simply describe what happened and apologise, saying that you now realize you need your ticket throughout the journey. If nothing like this has happened before, you will most likely be asked to pay £80 to Northern Rail for them to keep this out of court.

The letter can often take up to 4-6 weeks to arrive.

 

[pemma]

There might be CCTV evidence showing that you purchased a ticket. However, the CCTV evidence won't confirm you purchased the correct ticket for your journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

.

I think it's just one of those life lessons that most likely (given that it's Northern and a first offence) will cost the OP an £80 administrative settlement[1] and that will be it.

[1] To clarify, I called that a "Penalty Fake" before - it isn't fake, that's just a colloquial term used on here deriving from the fact that that it's similar to a Penalty Fare but is charged under a different legal framework to statutory Penalty Fares; it's essentially an out of court settlement covering costs in return for not taking the case to Court.

 

[najaB]

There might be CCTV evidence showing that you purchased a ticket. However, the CCTV evidence won't confirm you purchased the correct ticket for your journey.

That's unlikely to be of any use - at best it would show that the OP spent some time standing in front of a TVM. And that's even assuming it's still available.

 

[pemma]

I think it's just one of those life lessons that most likely (given that it's Northern and a first offence) will cost the OP an £80 administrative settlement[1] and that will be it.

[1] To clarify, I called that a "Penalty Fake" before - it isn't fake, that's just a colloquial term used on here deriving from the fact that that it's similar to a Penalty Fare but is charged under a different legal framework to statutory Penalty Fares; it's essentially an out of court settlement covering costs in return for not taking the case to Court.

As mentioned before the scheme Northern agreed with TfGM was for first time offenders to be asked to pay the fare and given a warning, with the £80 settlement or be taken to court only for people who had previously been warned and then only if posters stating the 'buy before you board' policy were on display at the origin station.

 

[jon0844]

Because the bin was a mile or two away, on the train.

Yes, re-read and realised I made a mistake. I thought on this occasion it was thrown when leaving the station.

I find it odd that people do this (throw on a train) as ticket checks could be expected to take place at any station surely?

Had it been thrown at the station, you'd have had to explain what ticket you were expecting to find first. The amount paid (and how), the details and time would all make it hard to just pick any ticket out and say 'found it'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned before the scheme Northern agreed with TfGM was for first time offenders to be asked to pay the fare and given a warning, with the £80 settlement or be taken to court only for people who had previously been warned and then only if posters stating the 'buy before you board' policy were on display at the origin station.

It was but it's self evidently not what they are doing.

 

[pemma]

I find it odd that people do this (throw on a train) as ticket checks could be expected to take place at any station surely?

I used to catch a morning Northern service which was worked by a unit which had spent the previous day in Cumbria and the night in sidings in Lancashire, meaning it hadn't been cleaned overnight. There were always tickets left on the train for previous day journeys in Cumbria. In seems in some areas train users think the ticket isn't required after they alight.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I find it odd that people do this (throw on a train) as ticket checks could be expected to take place at any station surely?

It could seem perfectly normal to someone who is a regular bus user - some buses have bins near the exit, marked specifically for used tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could seem perfectly normal to someone who is a regular bus user - some buses have bins near the exit, marked specifically for used tickets.

Or someone from another country, such as Germany, where revenue protection is exclusively conducted on board.

 

[island]

There might be CCTV evidence showing that you purchased a ticket. However, the CCTV evidence won't confirm you purchased the correct ticket for your journey.

Nor will it do anything else, or in all likelihood be retrievable or in sufficient quality. I don't really get why people believe CCTV is the be-all and end-all.

 

[455driver]

OP, first of all take a deepbreath and calm down, you are accused of travelling on a train without a ticket not mass murder, the usual procedure (asmentioned by a few other posters) is that Northern will write to you (in a month or two) and ask for your version of events, write back honestly covering all relevant facts, dont write an essay.

If they believe you, it is your first offence and you are not known to them already (persistent offender) then they will probably offer you the chance to pay a £80 out of Court settlement and tell you not to do it again because your name will be put on the naughty list, pay that and it is finished.

Because of the time it will take them to cantact you it might be a good idea to write down what was said between you and the RPI as a memory jogger.

In future always keep your ticket until you are clear of the station or better still back home, it is easy to to throw away the return part of a return ticket when you meant to throw away the 'out' part of it so its best practice to keep both parts together.

It will all get sorted out in the end and while it might seem a bit harsh (it is) it has to be like that because otherwise persistant offenders would just travel without a ticket and only pay up when stopped.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I don't really get why people believe CCTV is the be-all and end-all.

Neither do I.

It is only a few years ago that we saw a case where a traveller claimed to have gone to a ticket office and bought a ticket, but couldn't produce one when asked. It was at an off-peak time and he was adamant that he paid cash and that CCTV would confirm this, saying he must have mislaid the ticket.

In this case CCTV was checked and did indeed show the traveller go to the ticket office window and hand something over to the clerk. There was no audio and the image quality was as island says, pretty poor. It could have been a banknote handed over, but when the clerk was asked what ticket the traveller bought it transpired that he hadn't.

What the traveller had handed over was a note of train itinerary he had worked out himself for his journey and he asked the clerk to check it. As he was given his note back you could see something else passed over to him by the clerk and this turned out to be one of those mini-fold pocket timetables that were commonly issued for services operating in the 'home counties'.

Taken at first sight it might have been accepted as evidence of a ticket purchase, but for the good work done in checking up by an RPI and just goes to confirm that CCTV of itself, rarely proves any purchase.

 

[Samina]

Neither do I.

It is only a few years ago that we saw a case where a traveller claimed to have gone to a ticket office and bought a ticket, but couldn't produce one when asked. It was at an off-peak time and he was adamant that he paid cash and that CCTV would confirm this, saying he must have mislaid the ticket.

In this case CCTV was checked and did indeed show the traveller go to the ticket office window and hand something over to the clerk. There was no audio and the image quality was as island says, pretty poor. It could have been a banknote handed over, but when the clerk was asked what ticket the traveller bought it transpired that he hadn't.

What the traveller had handed over was a note of train itinerary he had worked out himself for his journey and he asked the clerk to check it. As he was given his note back you could see something else passed over to him by the clerk and this turned out to be one of those mini-fold pocket timetables that were commonly issued for services operating in the 'home counties'.

Taken at first sight it might have been accepted as evidence of a ticket purchase, but for the good work done in checking up by an RPI and just goes to confirm that CCTV of itself, rarely proves any purchase.

Is CCTV always used to check if they had bought the ticket or not. It's only been a few days so I'm just waiting for the letter to arrive

 

[yorkie]

Is CCTV always used to check if they had bought the ticket or not.

No it is not.

 

[najaB]

Is CCTV always used to check if they had bought the ticket or not.

No it is not.

And could not. As noted above, the *most* that CCTV could show is that the passenger stood at the ticket machine/ticket office window. It would not be clear enough to show conclusively that a ticket was bought, nor what that ticket was.

 

[pemma]

Nor will it do anything else, or in all likelihood be retrievable or in sufficient quality. I don't really get why people believe CCTV is the be-all and end-all.

CCTV has been used to both prove someone did board at the station which his ticket was issued from when a Virgin guard accused him of not doing and to prove that some people have not boarded at the station they claim to have boarded at. However, in this case the most it could show is someone making a transaction at a station and coming away with an orange bit of card, which could prove they had a ticket but not they had a valid ticket.

 

[Abpj17]

And could not. As noted above, the *most* that CCTV could show is that the passenger stood at the ticket machine/ticket office window. It would not be clear enough to show conclusively that a ticket was bought, nor what that ticket was.

But it could prove they went to the ticket office/machine. Those records could then be checked which could prove no such ticket was bought within the appropriate time window.

 

[najaB]

But it could prove they went to the ticket office/machine. Those records could then be checked which could prove no such ticket was bought within the appropriate time window.

You don't need CCTV to check the logs.