Bermondsey dive under open

[neilm]

A question for regular users of Southern services to London Bridge, particularly drivers.

Have you noticed any improvement in your trips through Bricklayers Arms since the flyover opened, i.e. are more likely to get a good run?

I've just seen TL4444 signal at New Cross Gate go green, twice, in 5 minutes, which is two times more than I have ever seen it green before.

Bit difficult to say at the moment due to other issues, it does seem better the times I have got it, but unsure if that is reduced timetable or the dive under.

 

[Busaholic]

I've just seen TL4444 signal at New Cross Gate go green, twice, in 5 minutes, which is two times more than I have ever seen it green before.

So, literally, infinitely more times than you've ever seen it before.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for the answers so far.

Now a slight confession. I made a mess of the question. I got the signal wrong, I meant TL4446 at New Cross Gate. On checking the diagrams, TL4446 could only be green if an up service was continuing along the Sussex Reversible. As hwl says, the Sussex Reversible was the main route for all down services until the diveunder opened, and although up services were routed that way, it wasn't often. Hence lack of green.

Services on the Up Fast were usually routed to the Up Slow via a 60mph crossover to signal TL4016. This latter signal has a form of approach control (from yellow) for moves to either the Up Bermondsey Spur or Bermondsey Reversible, the route most services took. Which means that for services taking that route (most of them) TL4446 could only display double yellow anyway.

Phew. Sorry.


Perhaps my question would have been better phrased by saying that the two trains I saw get Greens at TL4444 went through at linespeed (or thereabouts). I hadn't seen that since the new signalling was commissioned, so I reasoned that trains were getting a better run.

 

[physics34]

A question for regular users of Southern services to London Bridge, particularly drivers.

Have you noticed any improvement in your trips through Bricklayers Arms since the flyover opened, i.e. are more likely to get a good run?

I've just seen TL4444 signal at New Cross Gate go green, twice, in 5 minutes, which is two times more than I have ever seen it green before.

yes its much better.

 

[IKB]

Thanks for the answers so far.

Now a slight confession. I made a mess of the question. I got the signal wrong, I meant TL4446 at New Cross Gate. On checking the diagrams, TL4446 could only be green if an up service was continuing along the Sussex Reversible. As hwl says, the Sussex Reversible was the main route for all down services until the diveunder opened, and although up services were routed that way, it wasn't often. Hence lack of green.

Services on the Up Fast were usually routed to the Up Slow via a 60mph crossover to signal TL4016. This latter signal has a form of approach control (from yellow) for moves to either the Up Bermondsey Spur or Bermondsey Reversible, the route most services took. Which means that for services taking that route (most of them) TL4446 could only display double yellow anyway.

Phew. Sorry.

I guessed what you meant Haven't seen a green yet on TL4446 or TL4444. Are they still manually controlled or are they switching to auto? Not sure why trains are still getting crossed over to the slow on TL4446 and then back over to Sussex Reversible, does it depend on the signaller?

 

[Chrisgr31]

yes its much better.

Just mean the Uckfields catch up with the late running trains in front earlier

 

[OxtedL]

Not sure why trains are still getting crossed over to the slow on TL4446 and then back over to Sussex Reversible, does it depend on the signaller?

The layout is designed so that the Sussex Reversible is a continuation of the Up Sussex Slow - the last signal on the Up Sussex Slow is 4016, and the next ones on the Sussex Reversible are 4014, 4012, 4010, 4008. Thus trains coming off the Up Sussex Fast have to 'cross' to get to the Sussex Reversible regardless.

The choice of whether to do this at 4444 (the last signal on the Up Sussex Fast before it heads off to do Thameslink related things), or from 4446 (the signal before it, at New Cross Gate) makes very little difference to the train itself and will be down to the signaller.

Trains had been almost always going across at 4446 until the diveunder came into use because trains going from 4444 to the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversibles cannot do so at the same time that a down train is coming from either of these lines towards New Cross Gate.

Until Thameslink takes some traffic away from the Low Level station, the signallers will still be occasionally routing down trains via the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversibles and there is no reason for them not to do this. This means it will sometimes be useful to move over up fast trains at 4446. However, sending trains via 4444 means you can keep both the Up Slow and Up Fast moving without using the Up Sussex Loop. I guess both routes will be used for the foreseeable future!

Hope this helps - there's a live signalling diagram here: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tl-lbg-1 for anyone interested, although note that the signalling route from 4016 to 4014 currently incorrectly shows as to 4132. I've also attached a diagram with line names on, which is probably not totally inaccurate.

 

[IKB]

The layout is designed so that the Sussex Reversible is a continuation of the Up Sussex Slow - the last signal on the Up Sussex Slow is 4016, and the next ones on the Sussex Reversible are 4014, 4012, 4010, 4008. Thus trains coming off the Up Sussex Fast have to 'cross' to get to the Sussex Reversible regardless.

The choice of whether to do this at 4444 (the last signal on the Up Sussex Fast before it heads off to do Thameslink related things), or from 4446 (the signal before it, at New Cross Gate) makes very little difference to the train itself and will be down to the signaller.

Trains had been almost always going across at 4446 until the diveunder came into use because trains going from 4444 to the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversibles cannot do so at the same time that a down train is coming from either of these lines towards New Cross Gate.

Until Thameslink takes some traffic away from the Low Level station, the signallers will still be occasionally routing down trains via the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversibles and there is no reason for them not to do this. This means it will sometimes be useful to move over up fast trains at 4446. However, sending trains via 4444 means you can keep both the Up Slow and Up Fast moving without using the Up Sussex Loop. I guess both routes will be used for the foreseeable future!

Hope this helps - there's a live signalling diagram here: http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tl-lbg-1 for anyone interested, although note that the signalling route from 4016 to 4014 currently incorrectly shows as to 4132. I've also attached a diagram with line names on, which is probably not totally inaccurate.

Thanks for explanation. What you've outline was my understanding of how it worked to date.

Now that the dive under is open for down trains, is the default 'layout' you describe now amended so that crossing over up fast trains at TL4446 becomes the exception rather than the norm?

Thus the default routing for 'up slow' trains at TL4016 would be the Bermondsey Reversible and for 'up fast' trains at TL4444 for the Sussex Reversible via 50mph crossover up to TL 4014 ?

I've only had a few trips so far but still getting crossed over at TL4446 seems odd when there is nothing coming down the Sussex Reversible. Might be that I caught it at the wrong time or the signaller using the previous routing norm?

 

[OxtedL]

I don't think there's any particular need to route via TL4444 unless there's something coming up the Up Slow, which is why I think we'll see signallers doing both for a while, and indeed possibly even once the Thameslink lines are open.

Saying that, I was surprised at how little was going via TL4444 initially, so you may be right that everyone's letting it settle in and learning how it works efficiently for now.

 

[Validation]

Signals TL4016 & TL4444 are the dividing set of signals for panel 3B at Three Bridges, the route setting after this is down to the signaller on 3A panel (Going into LBG) and visa versa.

Some signallers prefer trains to be sent to 4016 and some to 4444, I'm sure this will become more consistent as time goes on and if/when a full timetable is even in place.

A couple of class 1 services in the morning are even routed down the slow line now on the new timetable!

A few drivers have called prior to leaving London bridge stating they would like to avoid the diver under and stick to what they know, some have even called up asking to be sent that way on purpose to try it out! I believe they have a notice in the cab with something regarding the diver under, although not quite sure what.

 

[absolutelymilk]

This RailEngineer article says that the tracks will be introduced over the new flyover at Bermondsey - how soon afterwards will trains in passenger service be using those tracks?

Christmas: the final layout will be introduced including the new Thameslink tracks through London Bridge station and over the new flyover at Bermondsey.

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/02/01/thameslink-progress-around-london-bridge/

 

[Deepgreen]

Thanks for the answers so far.

Now a slight confession. I made a mess of the question. I got the signal wrong, I meant TL4446 at New Cross Gate. On checking the diagrams, TL4446 could only be green if an up service was continuing along the Sussex Reversible. As hwl says, the Sussex Reversible was the main route for all down services until the diveunder opened, and although up services were routed that way, it wasn't often. Hence lack of green.

Services on the Up Fast were usually routed to the Up Slow via a 60mph crossover to signal TL4016. This latter signal has a form of approach control (from yellow) for moves to either the Up Bermondsey Spur or Bermondsey Reversible, the route most services took. Which means that for services taking that route (most of them) TL4446 could only display double yellow anyway.

Phew. Sorry.


Perhaps my question would have been better phrased by saying that the two trains I saw get Greens at TL4444 went through at linespeed (or thereabouts). I hadn't seen that since the new signalling was commissioned, so I reasoned that trains were getting a better run.

I'm sure we can be lenient with you new members!

 

[swt_passenger]

This RailEngineer article says that the tracks will be introduced over the new flyover at Bermondsey - how soon afterwards will trains in passenger service be using those tracks?

I'd expect Thameslink passenger services over the flyover will start immediately after the Christmas/New Year blockade finishes, the civils will be physically complete well in advance, and the blockade will be for final testing after the various new connections are finalised and the new signalling is tested.

This is similar to what they did when the down Sussex slow, (the first route through the underpass), came into use last Christmas, as described in the article.

 

[ijmad]

Thameslink services through London Bridge are expected to start on 2nd January 2018, but this will only be the Bedford to Brighton services moving back from the Herne Hill diversion route, so initially only 2ph, but I imagine they'll start using the flyover.

Core section goes to 20tph in May and 24tph in December, so correspondingly around 14tph and 16tph via London Bridge using the flyover.

 

[louis97]

Thameslink services through London Bridge are expected to start on 2nd January 2018, but this will only be the Bedford to Brighton services moving back from the Herne Hill diversion route, so initially only 2ph, but I imagine they'll start using the flyover.

I presume you have forgotten about the Three Bridges to Bedford services which also currently go via Herne Hill, so surely it should be 4tph through London Bridge.

Only sensible option will be to use the flyover. Can't see anyone wanting to have to mix TL trains with SE at London Bridge.

 

[ijmad]

I presume you have forgotten about the Three Bridges to Bedford services which also currently go via Herne Hill, so surely it should be 4tph through London Bridge.

Only sensible option will be to use the flyover. Can't see anyone wanting to have to mix TL trains with SE at London Bridge.

Good point! Yes ok, 4tph. Actually I'm also not sure what they're doing with the 2ph of Brighton services that currently terminate at London Bridge. So could even be 6?

 

[Bald Rick]

Good point! Yes ok, 4tph. Actually I'm also not sure what they're doing with the 2ph of Brighton services that currently terminate at London Bridge. So could even be 6?

The 2tph that terminate at London Bridge become through service to Cambridge in May next year.

 

[GW43125]

Would I be correct in thinking that although the lines will open in Jan '18, the TL won't be stopping until everything is done in December?

 

[Bald Rick]

Would I be correct in thinking that although the lines will open in Jan '18, the TL won't be stopping until everything is done in December?

No you would not.

Lines open 0400, the first Thameslink train stops in the first hour or two afterwards.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would I be correct in thinking that although the lines will open in Jan '18, the TL won't be stopping until everything is done in December?

2018 is for ramping up the train service gradually for performance purposes, as many routes have to be re-jigged gradually from SN or SE onto Thameslink, but I had the impression the infrastructure project should be all but complete in the new year, bar the tidying up?

The 2014 milestones show "all lines open and all trains stopping at London Bridge" in Jan 18...

 

[hwl]

2018 is for ramping up the train service gradually for performance purposes, as many routes have to be re-jigged gradually from SN or SE onto Thameslink, but I had the impression the infrastructure project should be all but complete in the new year, bar the tidying up?

The 2014 milestones show "all lines open and all trains stopping at London Bridge" in Jan 18...

Loads of resignalling to be done on the Kent side in 2018 as well as all the TMS and ATO. Plenty of "hidden infrastructure" being done in 2018.

 

[GW43125]

No you would not.

Lines open 0400, the first Thameslink train stops in the first hour or two afterwards.

It'll be good when they finally reopen them. I'm sure I saw Dec '18 mentioned somewhere

 

[IanKR]

Would I be correct in thinking that although the lines will open in Jan '18, the TL won't be stopping until everything is done in December?

Is Jan 18 when SE trains start to use the Bermondsey Diveunder?

 

[hwl]

Is Jan 18 when SE trains start to use the Bermondsey Diveunder?

Post August blockade along with P6 for Charing Cross use.

 

[Minstral25]

Good point! Yes ok, 4tph. Actually I'm also not sure what they're doing with the 2ph of Brighton services that currently terminate at London Bridge. So could even be 6?

At a recent meeting with GTR they said that just the four Bedford services in Jan 18. (Bedford - Brighton x2, Bedford - Three Bridges x2)

The new Southern timetable is scheduled to come into force in May 2018 at which point all of the 2018 East Croydon routed Thameslink trains will need to be "presented" from London Bridge. I assume this means trains will go to Peterborough and Cambridge at that point but forgot to ask unfortunately.

That implies the Brighton to London Bridge trains remain in the terminus to May 2018

 

[snowball]

Press release

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...reopens-after-transformation-by-network-rail/

Bolina Road reopened to the public following a major transformation by the Network Rail team working on the Bermondsey Dive Under, a vital new piece of infrastructure in south London.

Bolina Road was closed in January 2013 when Network Rail engineers began to build the Bermondsey Dive Under, a new railway junction that will uncork a major bottle-neck on the eastern approaches to London Bridge station. Network Rail agreed to rejuvenate the area after discussions with Lewisham Council, as part of the organisation’s commitment to sustainability and working together to support communities, as well as improve and maintain the railway.

At the time, Bolina Road was part of an area identified by the local community as in need of investment. The road itself was run-down, un-lit and unwelcoming, with a dilapidated bridge riddled with bullet-holes from the Second World War. After investment by the Thameslink Programme, which is part of Network Rail’s Railway Upgrade Plan, the road has been transformed into a safe, well-lit community space, open to pedestrians and cyclists, with granite kerbs, pallas paving, improved lighting and a state of the art cycling surface.

 

[rebmcr]

a dilapidated bridge riddled with bullet-holes from the Second World War.

Is that even close to accurate?

 

[Deepgreen]

Is that even close to accurate?

No, the holes were from 2015/16 when frustration with the service peaked!!

 

[theageofthetra]

No, the holes were from 2015/16 when frustration with the service peaked!!

I presume the blue lighting under it is to prevent needle drug abuse rather than to make it look pretty or affiliate with Millwall FC?

 

[Deepgreen]

I presume the blue lighting under it is to prevent needle drug abuse rather than to make it look pretty or affiliate with Millwall FC?

Possibly, although the main use of blue lighting on the railway is to deter suicides (e.g. Gatwick Airport platforms).