Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[LDECRexile]

ALX400 has kindly sent shots of more steel on show at Lostock Lane and Horwich.

He added: "Just had a gander along the line near me. I nipped to Horwich and then Lostock lane, significant progress between Lostock and Horwich with masts and dressing, don't think much has changed past Horwich towards Blackrod looking at those masts."

I've added his shots to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651121057352

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you ALX

 

[Darren R]

I think Warrington and Preston are in the "difficult pile" but I believe that the plan certainly a few years ago was that once everything was under the powerbox at Preston it was somewhat easier to transfer to Manchester than having another ROC Island like Oxford Rd and Huyton. I believe Preston and Warrington are being left till last anyway. Could have changed in the mean time though.

Why is the migration of Warrington and Preston PSBs to Manchester ROC considered tricky?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Why is the migration of Warrington and Preston PSBs to Manchester ROC considered tricky?

Both those have Westinghouse "Westpac" geographical relay interlockings (Warrington certainly does), so it could be because of interface issues back to the ROC?

Preston (exclusive) to Blackpool North goes onto a new workstation at MROC, not via Preston PSB (that wouldn't be easy or cost-effective).

I am also reminded by a colleague that "gantry" is a common alternative for "portal OLE structure"

 

[QueensCurve]

I've never been sure how critical though, as electric traffic levels are still fairly modest with the drop-off in freight (the upgrade from Cumbria northwards was cancelled some time ago) and the use of Voyagers/185s on the WCML.

Cumbria inclusive or exclusive?

We can however but hope that the Whatsuperaboutthem Voyagers will be replaced with electric traction.

 

[QueensCurve]

Each feeder is a large single phase load on the 400kV Supergrid and so injects a negative phase sequence component back into the 3-phase supply. I imagine there is a limit to the load that National Grid can tolerate on any one feeder, before it causes an unacceptable degradation in grid power quality.

Could you perhaps explain "a negative phase sequence component" for those of us who are not electrical engineers?

 

[snowball]

Could you perhaps explain "a negative phase sequence component" for those of us who are not electrical engineers?

Perhaps if you just read it as "puts a big demand on one phase and disturbs the balance of demand between the three phases".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cumbria inclusive or exclusive?

The ATF upgrade project ends from the south at Great Strickland, which is roughly half way between Shap Summit and Penrith.
It's where one of the main WCML grid feeders is located.
The cancelled section is between there and Carstairs.
So the northern half of Cumbria is not going to be fitted, nor the lowlands or Beattock.
They expected a greater percentage of electric freight haulage, and more freight trains, but neither has happened.

There's this NR description from a conference in 2012:

Ellen Wintle spoke about power supply requirements for the West Coast Main Line. Contracts for new power supplies for phase 3A, between North Wembley and Whitmore (south of Crewe) have been awarded, and tenders are in for phase 3B (Whitmore to Great Strickland near Penrith). This latter includes some 240km of 25kV auto transformer feeder, 120km of return screening conductor, 11 new 25kV distribution sites and modification to several existing ones, removal of 100 booster transformers and recovery of redundant 25kV equipment

 

[Greybeard33]

Could you perhaps explain "a negative phase sequence component" for those of us who are not electrical engineers?

Perhaps if you just read it as "puts a big demand on one phase and disturbs the balance of demand between the three phases".

Yes - see http://www.allinterview.com/showanswers/104069/what-is-negative-phase-sequence.html for some technical explanations.

The imbalance between grid phases must be limited because it causes excessive heating in 3-phase motors, generators and transformers - see http://electricalengineeringtutorials.com/effects-of-negative-sequence-currents-in-machines/

What matters is the size of the railway single phase power demand relative to the total power flux in that area of the grid. In general I would expect a 400kV feeder to be able to support a higher power demand than a 275kV one, which in turn could support more than a 132kV one. Although it will also depend on the grid network configuration in the local area.

I believe different sections of the 25kV network are fed from different grid phases (hence the need for neutral sections between them), so over the grid as a whole the imbalances tend to partially cancel out. Obviously that varies from minute to minute with the location and power demand of individual trains.

 

[snowball]

I believe different sections of the 25kV network are fed from different grid phases (hence the need for neutral sections between them), so over the grid as a whole the imbalances tend to partially cancel out. Obviously that varies from minute to minute with the location and power demand of individual trains.

Presumably a feeder station at a junction location, like Weaver, can contribute to the balance by feeding different phases to the different stretches of line it feeds, such as one to the WCML to and from Crewe, another to the WCML to and from Warrington and the third to the Liverpool line.

Willow Park feeds four different arms so will have to use one phase twice.

 

[rebmcr]

Yes - see http://www.allinterview.com/showanswers/104069/what-is-negative-phase-sequence.html for some technical explanations.

The imbalance between grid phases must be limited because it causes excessive heating in 3-phase motors, generators and transformers - see http://electricalengineeringtutorials.com/effects-of-negative-sequence-currents-in-machines/

What matters is the size of the railway single phase power demand relative to the total power flux in that area of the grid. In general I would expect a 400kV feeder to be able to support a higher power demand than a 275kV one, which in turn could support more than a 132kV one. Although it will also depend on the grid network configuration in the local area.

I believe different sections of the 25kV network are fed from different grid phases (hence the need for neutral sections between them), so over the grid as a whole the imbalances tend to partially cancel out. Obviously that varies from minute to minute with the location and power demand of individual trains.

Is it not possible to draw from all three phases at once, using invertors & transformers to combine them into a single feed for the OHLE?

 

[Elecman]

The ATF upgrade project ends from the south at Great Strickland, which is roughly half way between Shap Summit and Penrith.
It's where one of the main WCML grid feeders is located.
The cancelled section is between there and Carstairs.
So the northern half of Cumbria is not going to be fitted, nor the lowlands or Beattock.

Great Strickland is a Mid Point ATF site not a grid connection, the Grid Feeders are at Penrith and Harker

 

[Geeves]

Few more piles gone in around Salford Crescent. Also the road bridge has lost all its coping stones stones on the south side presumably to be replaced with something higher. It was already pretty high!

 

[edwin_m]

Is it not possible to draw from all three phases at once, using invertors & transformers to combine them into a single feed for the OHLE?

This should be possible, as done with high voltage DC feeds such as those under the Channel. However some fairly hefty power electronics are involved and I don't think the railway has tried it yet, in the UK at least.

 

[superkev]

Is it not possible to draw from all three phases at once, using invertors & transformers to combine them into a single feed for the OHLE?

I would have thought that the different track sections where distributed over all 3 phases. Of course to balance it would require the same number of trains on each phases taking the same power.
Solutions with various specially wound phase conversion transformers exist which partially balance loads but outside my expierience.
K

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Great Strickland is a Mid Point ATF site not a grid connection, the Grid Feeders are at Penrith and Harker

Penrith Grid Feed – you can clearly see the power lines
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.66889,-2.7622,18z/data=!3m1!1e3

Great Strickland ATF site – I think – clearly no power lines
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.59805,-2.69771,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

I am struggling with Harker - I assume it is in the Carlisle New Yard area/Kingmoor

 

[Elecman]

Harker is north of Kingmoor

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Assuming that grid feeds are planned way way in advance, surely they will not cancel the installation of Stalybridge grid feeder to help the Manchester-Blackpool feed - or should I say Manchester -Preston?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have an NR document on the WCPSU ATF project, and it has a map with two "NGC"s which I take to be National Grid Connections.
One is at Frodsham (feeding NR at Weaver Jn), and the other is at Hutton which feeds NR at Oxenholme.
I would post a link but can't find it on the current NR site.

 

[snowball]

Assuming that grid feeds are planned way way in advance, surely they will not cancel the installation of Stalybridge grid feeder to help the Manchester-Blackpool feed - or should I say Manchester -Preston?

Nobody is suggesting that they would do anything of the sort. The feeding of Manchester-Preston is designed to depend on the Stalybridge feeder and the discussion in recent posts arose from wondering what might be done to alleviate the effects on Manchester-Preston of a delay to Stalybridge.

 

[snowball]

I am struggling with Harker - I assume it is in the Carlisle New Yard area/Kingmoor

Try here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9426001,-2.9860159,262m/data=!3m1!1e3

or the view from a bridge:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9...4!1sZPG2MBhJeq0ErQi1iCFLsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[LDECRexile]

I am struggling with Harker

...and here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harker_railway_station

 

[edwin_m]

Nobody is suggesting that they would do anything of the sort. The feeding of Manchester-Preston is designed to depend on the Stalybridge feeder and the discussion in recent posts arose from wondering what might be done to alleviate the effects on Manchester-Preston of a delay to Stalybridge.

Either a delay to Stalybridge feeder or a delay to the OLE which is needed to conduct the electricity from Stalybridge to the Manchester-Preston route. I've slightly lost track of which one is more likely or for longer!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Either a delay to Stalybridge feeder or a delay to the OLE which is needed to conduct the electricity from Stalybridge to the Manchester-Preston route. I've slightly lost track of which one is more likely or for longer!

The Phase 5 OLE is 2022 (at the moment). Heyrod Feeder (Stalybridge but not really) is required for Phase 4 and any enchanced electric services from Liverpool via Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge. Even without Vic - Stalybridge (phase 5 being wired) I understand that the new feeder is required, hence the work to connect Heyrod to Ordsall Lane ATS in the interim.

Phase 3 (Blackpool) is fed from the Preston end, Phase 6 (Windermere) will almost certainly be fed from Oxenholme ATFS / Strickland and Phase 7 (Lostock - Wigan) will probably be fed partly from Lostock ATS on Phase 4 and partly from Springs Branch ATS (for which there will have to be a neutral section somewhere).

 

[Greybeard33]

Is it not possible to draw from all three phases at once, using invertors & transformers to combine them into a single feed for the OHLE?

Phase imbalance can be corrected by devices called Static VAr Compensators (SVCs). However, these are large and expensive, so avoided where possible.

The problem is that single phase power is inherently pulsating, whereas a balanced 3-phase power flow is smooth and continuous. A train draws power from the OLE in a chain of pulses, 100 per second for a 50Hz supply. To smooth this out requires seriously large energy storage components (capacitors and inductors) and large power electronics devices to switch them.

 

[snowball]

The Phase 5 OLE is 2022 (at the moment).

Are you saying here that Victoria to Stalybridge wiring is now seen as not being completed before the rest of TP? That's a big slippage for a short scheme!

It might suggest they're looking at re-re-modelling Stalybridge!

Edit: or do you just mean that (as we already knew) the short length of OLE from Heyrod through the tunnel to Stalybridge is 2022?

 

[Trackman]

And here it is, with an enlargement of the shot's centre.

First, in Reg's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157671732263863

and in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Reg.

PS: I have changed the photos' captions. I originally misinterpreted the signalling portal as OHLE. My error.

Dave

Thanks Reg, are they close together or is it just the angle of the shot?

 

[edwin_m]

The Phase 5 OLE is 2022 (at the moment). Heyrod Feeder (Stalybridge but not really) is required for Phase 4 and any enchanced electric services from Liverpool via Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge. Even without Vic - Stalybridge (phase 5 being wired) I understand that the new feeder is required, hence the work to connect Heyrod to Ordsall Lane ATS in the interim.

We know Heyrod to Stalybridge is the "Extension Lead". Is this being extended further to Ordsall Lane or is the idea to install some OLE that won't be used by a train for a few years?

 

[snowball]

Joseph has said previously (possibly on Skyscrapercity rather than here) that there will be a 25kV cable from Stalybridge (possibly Heyrod) to Manchester (possibly to Ordsall Lane) independent of the actual OLE.

 

[reg]

Thanks Reg, are they close together or is it just the angle of the shot?

They are that close together,have checked other pics taken same day.

 

[edwin_m]

Joseph has said previously (possibly on Skyscrapercity rather than here) that there will be a 25kV cable from Stalybridge (possibly Heyrod) to Manchester (possibly to Ordsall Lane) independent of the actual OLE.

Thanks, if it was on here I must have missed it.