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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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Fincra5

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The 700s have tread brakes on some (motored?) wheels - the question is; when are they deployed and is it a manual or automatic process?

Whenever I've seen them come on it tends to be right at the end of braking.. Pretty much when the train is only a couple of MPH from being at a stand. As someone says, when the motor regen can't go any lower. 377's do it as well with their disc brakes (Unless you're in Brake Step 2 or 3).

They maybe in use more during leaf-fall or slippery railhead conditions.
 
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AM9

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Which should have been done in the design, build and (most importantly) extensive on-route testing phases!

Yes of course, - and the 700s are the only train type in the history of rail travel in the UK that has had teething troubles on introduction. :)
 

AM9

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Whenever I've seen them come on it tends to be right at the end of braking.. Pretty much when the train is only a couple of MPH from being at a stand. ...

That's because with regen, the output from the motors can be stepped-up from a low voltage that can effectively be loaded for brakings. With the previous generation of electro-rheostatic braked (MKIIIs etc.), the simple resistors required a higher voltage (meaning a higher rotational speed) to effectively present a braking load on the motors.
 

EMD

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Whenever I've seen them come on it tends to be right at the end of braking.. Pretty much when the train is only a couple of MPH from being at a stand. As someone says, when the motor regen can't go any lower. 377's do it as well with their disc brakes (Unless you're in Brake Step 2 or 3).

That's how they sound to me. As they stop you can hear the disc brakes and then with 2-3mph left tread brakes come on.
 

spark001uk

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There were a good few units at Hornsey when I passed the other day. Also noticed 700110 there a couple of times now and looks not to have moved. Can't say I remember travelling on that one yet come to think of it. Something wrong with it maybe?
 

Peter Mugridge

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How do they end up going via Peterborough?

And does that mean that they are cleared north of St Neots now?

I have no idea why they are doing that and as they are under tow when on delivery it doesn't really give any clues about whether or not they are cleared to run north of St Neots yet does it?
 

D365

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I have no idea why they are doing that and as they are under tow when on delivery it doesn't really give any clues about whether or not they are cleared to run north of St Neots yet does it?

The clearance issue was apparently due to the fixed third rail shoes (same reason the Class 313s haven't been cleared), so the only clue I guess would be whether or not the shoes are raised manually or removed during delivery.
 

387star

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Looked like the new logo is in a different place as in lower down and to the side but might have imagined it. The new stripe is surely to match the dft grey stripes.

Wonder if it has tables
 

swt_passenger

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The clearance issue was apparently due to the fixed third rail shoes (same reason the Class 313s haven't been cleared), so the only clue I guess would be whether or not the shoes are raised manually or removed during delivery.

Checked a few videos of delivery runs and I am pretty confident the shoes are in a manually raised position while being hauled within Germany and within the UK.
 
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Deepgreen

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Yes of course, - and the 700s are the only train type in the history of rail travel in the UK that has had teething troubles on introduction. :)

No they're not, but they have undergone a longer and more intensive testing regime (both in Germany and here) than most, but still present with large numbers of failures. All this with the benefit of computer-aided design and static testing before running for months on the routes that they are intended to serve. I don't believe the failure regime is the best we could have expected.
 

AM9

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No they're not, but they have undergone a longer and more intensive testing regime (both in Germany and here) than most, but still present with large numbers of failures. All this with the benefit of computer-aided design and static testing before running for months on the routes that they are intended to serve. I don't believe the failure regime is the best we could have expected.

I wouldn't regard the frequent reports of 'yet another class 700 failure' by a few posters as representative of the actual defect level on these trains. If somebody here is actually keeping a record of all (or even most) failures, it would add value to any comments about them. We aren't privileged to full details of service failures, but there are frequent corrections to these false attributions from others closer to the operations of Thameslink. There have been 700s taken out of service, with all the disruption that it causes attracting the usual comments here, where the actual facts reveal that it was the failure of another train (319 or Electrostar) or even passenger activities, that caused the 700 withdrawl.
In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any failures of service, but they are a fact of life and unless somebody has verified causes of such events, no valid judgement can be made of their actual reliability. Some posters here seem to have let their personal dislike of aspects of the class 700s and/or GTR cloud their judgement based only on limited information.
A comparison of reliability is worthless without knowing which class it is being compared with.
 

jon0844

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Most of the issues I've read here were to do with door opening problems, and the odd ones where the brakes locked on.

The former seemed to be down to the driver struggling with the placement of signs, and I assume that now the core has the doors opening automatically a great deal of problems have gone. You could argue that these faults were external and not down to the train itself.
 

ComUtoR

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I sat in the crew room this afternoon. Pretty much every Driver in the room had a story or another about how their 700 failed. HMI and DMI failures seem to be quite common. False fire alarms seem to be another common problem.

I absolutely think it is a mistake to accept failure so readily and brush it off as 'teething problems' Just because it happened in the past does not mean we should roll over and take it.

Just as those who constantly moan about them. There are those that will jump to their defence blindly.
 

Peter Mugridge

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How do they end up going via Peterborough?

I got the answer to this earlier - because of the length of the consist, they have to enter Hornsey from the up line. The nearest place to Hornsey where they can run round without messing up the ECML timetable is Peterborough. So they deliver them via Peterborough.
 

D365

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I got the answer to this earlier - because of the length of the consist, they have to enter Hornsey from the up line. The nearest place to Hornsey where they can run round without messing up the ECML timetable is Peterborough. So they deliver them via Peterborough.

Ah I see - so they're simply dragged to Peterborough and back again.

Is this the first time that a Class 700 has travelled the ECML north of Hornsey?
 
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Skimble19

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Ah I see - so they're simply dragged to Peterborough and back again.

Is this the first time that a Class 700 has travelled the ECML north of Hornsey?

They've been running about on tests on GN routes for some time now.. (at least as far as Peterborough and Cambridge anyway!)
 

D365

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Ah, yeah you're right, I've only just seen videos of these test runs. Which would suggest that they are fully cleared.
 

387star

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When are we looking at remaining 377 and 319 units being removed from tl? Do the 377/5 have a confirmed home ?
 

JonathanH

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When are we looking at remaining 377 and 319 units being removed from tl? Do the 377/5 have a confirmed home ?

According to these, June 2017 should see the end of 377s and 319s on Thameslink (May for Thameslink crewed services and later for Southeastern crewed services)
http://aptu.org.uk/pdfs/aptu_annualmeeting2017_gtrmain.pdf
http://aptu.org.uk/pdfs/tlgn_stakeholderforum21032017.pdf

There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt this as there are 28 of 46 700/0s which have been in service (700002/3/5-10/4-21/3/5/7/9-31/6/8/9/44-6) and only 700001, 700034 and 700035 from this batch left to be delivered.

It appears that the 377/5s are destined for Southern as they are expecting an increase in their fleet.
 
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physics34

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According to these, June 2017 should see the end of 377s and 319s on Thameslink (May for Thameslink crewed services and later for Southeastern crewed services)
http://aptu.org.uk/pdfs/aptu_annualmeeting2017_gtrmain.pdf
http://aptu.org.uk/pdfs/tlgn_stakeholderforum21032017.pdf

There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt this as there are 28 of 46 700/0s which have been in service (700002/3/5-10/4-21/3/5/7/9-31/6/8/9/44-6) and only 700001, 700034 and 700035 from this batch left to be delivered.

It appears that the 377/5s are destined for Southern as they are expecting an increase in their fleet.

thats the latest i think.... im not sure how long 377501-508 will remain at SE, long term i guess after receiving their vinyls. I guess 455 workings will reduce significantly...as there will be many more 377s avaliable...including the units curently allocated to LBG to Horsham and Brighton which are scheduled to got to 700s soon.
 

JonathanH

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Are Southern drivers getting class 700 training (eg Horsham, Redhill, Brighton, Littlehampton drivers) or will it only be Thameslink drivers and any people who transfer over?
 

EMD

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By coincidence I was on a relatively empty 700 today (perhaps only half full). It was a much worse ride than when there's an extra 1000 people on board. That extra 6 tonnes per coach makes all the difference.

Funnily enough I went on a ride sarf of the river today (hardly anyone on board) on the BML and both 700's were really choppy over points and bouncy in general. Almost felt like we were about to come off the tracks more than a couple of times. I don't think I've ever been on a train riding this bad, ironing board seats didn't help either. That's the price of progress I guess. And the fact that these were designed as cattle trains.
 

AM9

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Funnily enough I went on a ride sarf of the river today (hardly anyone on board) on the BML and both 700's were really choppy over points and bouncy in general. Almost felt like we were about to come off the tracks more than a couple of times. I don't think I've ever been on a train riding this bad, ironing board seats didn't help either. That's the price of progress I guess. And the fact that these were designed as cattle trains.

Track on the ex-Southern Region lines that you travel on must be very bad, (or you have 'exceptional problems' with class 700s) as I've ridden the trains across the speed range with a variety of loadings both standing and on firm and supportive seats. In none of those circumstances have the trains given a ride over junctions, crossovers and known poor track alignment that could be described as bad, even when compared to the alternative stock on the routes, (319s and Electrostars).
 

MrCub

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I shall not be sorry to see the back of the 377s but I do have a soft spot for the 319s, especially because you can open the windows.

700s turning up everywhere now, even on Sutton stoppers. Was on one yesterday - 8 coaches out of London on a bank holiday to Bedford in mid-afternoon. Full and standing. They're alright...but no more than that.
 

AM9

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... Was on one yesterday - 8 coaches out of London on a bank holiday to Bedford in mid-afternoon. Full and standing. They're alright...but no more than that.

If it was a 319, it:
a) could well have been a 4-car unit
and
b) even if it was 2x4-car, it would have felt more packed than the 8-car 700 was
and
c) the journey would take longer in a 319 than the class 700* with longer​
dwells
*assuming the new timetable specifically for the class 700s.
 

EMD

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Track on the ex-Southern Region lines that you travel on must be very bad, (or you have 'exceptional problems' with class 700s) as I've ridden the trains across the speed range with a variety of loadings both standing and on firm and supportive seats. In none of those circumstances have the trains given a ride over junctions, crossovers and known poor track alignment that could be described as bad, even when compared to the alternative stock on the routes, (319s and Electrostars).

Depends where you sit I guess, I was in the first carriage, standard class so right on the bogie in both directions and it was nasty. To the point where if I had coffee I'd be all over my jacket.
 
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