Arriva Rail North DOO

[coxxy]

I like guards.. I like guards being there and I do not like the idea of just the driver being responsible for everything..

But as much as it pains me to say it, the way things are going the RMT are slowly shooting themselves in the foot. I get that they want to protect their memebers, And that their members want to oppose any changes consistency is definitely needed...

 

[Jamesrob637]

Northern's diagramming (both for units and staff) seems to be all over the place.

Never was a truer sentence written. Let's hope most if not all services can be sufficiently (re)organised within the time frame of this current franchise.

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT threw a wobbler because the deemed that "unit hopping" is an unsafe practice.. so it's not just Northern that stop the guards being able to use any door control panel and train..

Unfortunately I have no evidence of this..

Yes around 10 years ago there was a dispute with Midland Mainline (unsure if it actually resulted in strikes) over exacly the same issue on class 222s that were doubled up with only 1 conductor

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes around 10 years ago there was a dispute with Midland Mainline (unsure if it actually resulted in strikes) over exacly the same issue on class 222s that were doubled up with only 1 conductor

How was that resolved? Do they run with 1 guard or 2?
Are VT/XC's doubled up Voyagers the same? (triple Voyagers have been run).
There will usually be catering crew of course.

 

[Carlisle]

How was that resolved? Do they run with 1 guard or 2?
Are VT/XC's doubled up Voyagers the same? (triple Voyagers have been run).
There will usually be catering crew of course.

As far as I'm aware the compromise reached was that the leading Voyager could run with the driver and a competent person (usually catering crew) and the conductor would stay in the rear set. I'm happy to be corrected if that's wrong

 

[LowLevel]

They are rostered for two train managers on EMT, one in charge and one assist but in disruption can run with a train manager in one set as the guard and an EMT customer host (Not an RG host, they're considered to be passengers operationally) in the other.

 

[Mag_seven]

New strike date announced:

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-a-further-24-hour-strike-on-arriva-rail-north/

RMT confirms a further 24 hour strike on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

Rail union RMT has confirmed that a further 24 hour strike on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 30th May as the company jams the brakes on all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are rostered for two train managers on EMT, one in charge and one assist but in disruption can run with a train manager in one set as the guard and an EMT customer host (Not an RG host, they're considered to be passengers operationally) in the other.

LM operated 12-car 321 formations (no gangways) with only one guard.

Thameslink operated 12-car 319 formations (no gangways, just end emergency exits) DOO.

DLR operate three-unit trains with one "guard" and no driver and no gangways.

Etc.

It really is not an actual issue. It's more a cause of delay if the train must be stopped to get staff into another part of it than a cause of safety issues. Unless desirable for commercial reasons, one guard is quite adequate.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

New strike date announced:
RMT confirms a further 24 hour strike on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

I don't know exactly when this (and the parallel strikes on Merseyrail and Southern) was announced, but I did think it would stay quiet until after the general election.
Maybe the Labour manifesto has indicated the issue will get official support, and they want to make it a doorstep issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

New strike date announced:

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-a-further-24-hour-strike-on-arriva-rail-north/

RMT confirms a further 24 hour strike on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

Rail union RMT has confirmed that a further 24 hour strike on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 30th May as the company jams the brakes on all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.

Will this strike on May 30th achieve any more than the last one did?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will this strike on May 30th achieve any more than the last one did?

No, it won't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Will this strike on May 30th achieve any more than the last one did?

No, it'll mean the staff have a day's less pay again.

 

[Jonfun]

How was that resolved? Do they run with 1 guard or 2?
Are VT/XC's doubled up Voyagers the same? (triple Voyagers have been run).
There will usually be catering crew of course.

XC double Voyagers are usually rostered for two Train Managers, but if only one is available they are allowed to run with one TM as long as there is a member of catering crew in the other unit. So if there is one TM and two catering staff, one caterer in each unit, then the TM can "unit hop". Otherwise, if there is only one, they have to remain in the other unit.

 

[Carlisle]

Will this strike on May 30th achieve any more than the last one did?

No, other than keeping these 3 disputes simmering until ASLEFs future intentions on these issues perhaps become a bit clearer

 

[XDM]

No, other than keeping these 3 disputes simmering until ASLEFs future intentions on these issues perhaps become a bit clearer

Agree with Carlisle. Indeed the strikes may help the conservatives. The Southern one seems completely pointless, apart from cementing the Tory vote, as most trains have run on the last two strike days.

 

[Starmill]

When has there ever been a 12 car 319?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When has there ever been a 12 car 319?

Sorry, 8 car. Still a unit completely without staff.

 

[the sniper]

Will this strike on May 30th achieve any more than the last one did?

No, it won't.

No, it'll mean the staff have a day's less pay again.

No, other than keeping these 3 disputes simmering until ASLEFs future intentions on these issues perhaps become a bit clearer

I'm starting to think you guys don't agree with strikes as a form of protest... :roll:

Must you indulge Paul?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm starting to think you guys don't agree with strikes as a form of protest... :roll:

It is more that they cannot win, just like on Southern, as Government views are clear and Northern would be in breach of their franchise agreement if they capitulated.

 

[Mintona]

If the drivers don't accept it, it won't happen.

 

[bradders1983]

A practical question - how busy were the trains Northern put on on the day of the last Northern strike?

Work have booked me on a course in Leeds on the day, was planning on taking the CrossCountry anyway (from Sheffield) but clearly those trains will be affected by increased loadings?

I did drive past one train at about 4pm just outside of Meadowhall going north towards Barnsley which was doubled up and there hardly seemed to be anyone on it, but it was just before the peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the drivers don't accept it, it won't happen.

Yes, it will. People can only afford not to be paid for so long. Eventually they will give up.

If the Government wants it, it will get it. And it is the Government who are driving this. No TOC has ever decided to implement DOO commercially because they know how difficult it is, and Northern wouldn't be either if their franchise agreement did not require them to do so.

This has nothing to do with the merits of DOO itself. What the Government wants, it will get. It did with the miners (by closing the pits). It will do here.

If, OTOH, the drivers *do* accept it, the guards will lose totally, as there will be nothing to stop it at all.

 

[rich r]

A practical question - how busy were the trains Northern put on on the day of the last Northern strike?

I traveled from Selby to Leeds and back and last time with no problems. Usually I get a pre-7am Northern service which was unavailable so I got the TPE one that runs about 20 minutes later. It possibly a little busier than usual but not much. I came back on a pre-5pm Northern service, which was again not noticeably busier than usual.

For me, having the option of TPE services and an understanding boss so I could leave a little earlier meant it had absolutely no impact at all on my commute.

I guess these days a lot of people who work in offices have the option of working from home, and with the last strike being a Friday before a Bank Holiday weekend many people may have just taken the day off (to watch the Tour de Yorkshire perhaps).

 

[ashworth]

Do these 24 hour strikes just cause problems for travel on the actual day of the strike without any cancellations the next day? I have an Advance Ticket from Nottingham to Kirkham and Wesham on the the following morning 31st May. I presume that I will have no problems with the train I am supposed to travel on from Stockport to Kirkham and Wesham.

 

[Chester1]

It will be interesting to see if Northern run more or less services than the 40% they managed last time. I doubt there is sufficient support to strike regularly until the new trains arrive. I know this has probably been discussed before but could Northern run the 319s DOO or are there route limitations that prevent this? Seems odd for Northern to have 32 units that were run under DOO at Thameslink but are never run as DOO now. It would greatly reduce the RMTs bargaining power if ASLEF decided to not strike.

 

[driver_m]

It will be interesting to see if Northern run more or less services than the 40% they managed last time. I doubt there is sufficient support to strike regularly until the new trains arrive. I know this has probably been discussed before but could Northern run the 319s DOO or are there route limitations that prevent this? Seems odd for Northern to have 32 units that were run under DOO at Thameslink but are never run as DOO now. It would greatly reduce the RMTs bargaining power if ASLEF decided to not strike.

You can't. No Northern driver can go out and just drive DOO For one they'd have to agree to it, and theres no realistic chance of that in my opinion. No matter what anyone thinks on here.

 

[Carlisle]

could Northern run the 319s DOO or are there route limitations that prevent this? Seems odd for Northern to have 32 units that were run under DOO at Thameslink but are never run as DOO now. It would greatly reduce the RMTs bargaining power if ASLEF decided to not strike.

That'd need route clearance, drivers to agree and be trained to operate DOO, none of which I believe is happening soon

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't. No Northern driver can go out and just drive DOO For one they'd have to agree to it, and theres no realistic chance of that in my opinion. No matter what anyone thinks on here.

Would it be a valid redundancy case? Northern need DOO drivers, so they recruit and train them. They then make an equal number of drivers who will not drive DOO redundant, as non-DOO drivers are required in smaller numbers than before.

To me the role is different enough.

We might end up with a sham role like OBS, to be quietly done away with at franchise change, but I am certain that the drivers will be operating the doors on the services the Government wants.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... I know this has probably been discussed before but could Northern run the 319s DOO or are there route limitations that prevent this? Seems odd for Northern to have 32 units that were run under DOO at Thameslink but are never run as DOO now. It would greatly reduce the RMTs bargaining power if ASLEF decided to not strike.

No, they can't.

Even if the drivers were suitably trained (and they are not), the Thameslink DOO scheme had mirrors or monitors on the platform of every station that did not have dispatch staff. The trains themselves were only DOO fitted in the sense that the driver had door controls within easy reach.... Which actually brings me neatly to another point, the 319s were originally fitted with door-key switches in the cab, FCC had them rewired so that the door controls were released when the master key was in. Northern have rewired the units again, with door-key switches and door controls fitted by the passenger doors for Guards to use.

 

[8J]

The 15x units were fitted with door controls (with the exception of the 158/9's) in the cabs but aren't used. They can't run DOO and neither can 319's up here