Additionally, given most proposals here have made a good effort to eliminate flat-junction conflicts, that means that there might be scope to increase services above and beyond the current service level, because you could present more trains at junctions that currently just couldn't take it.
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Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise
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That'd be ok if SE fares in London come under the TfL fare scheme so an extra £1.50 isn't charged for that change to the tube. Afterall, many other London TOCs don't charge this additional fee.
With more and more people working from home/part time then oyster use for single trips comes to the fore. Not having trains to Victoria likely means spending £3 extra per day.
Then the plans would appear to live or die based on such a provision being made alongside them.
A uniform service devoid of a variety of direct trains would certainly balance loading, as there would be nothing to "hold out" for.
Yep there would have to be carrot along with the stick though there wans't much evidence of carrot in the consultation.
Anyway, it now seems like the plan could well be off.
I've just been alerted to this controversy by my folks who still live in the area.
Whilst I'd love to see fast trains return to the classic network, I don't think you could do so by reducing services to Headcorn, Staplehurst and Paddock Wood, all of which have had two trains an hour for donkey's years. If you wanted a fast train via Tonbridge, it would have to be additional.
I understand that the cut-off line North of Tonbridge is now effectively full. Perhaps a new fast train could join with one from Tunbridge Wells at Tonbridge. Another alternative could be to resurrect the train that used to go fast from Ashford via Maidstone East to London, although I don't know how much longer that would take than a fast via Tonbridge.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
As much as it would be unfair to cut services to these smaller stations, it was never fair to withdraw the fast services from the stations east of Ashford. Everything was absolutely fine before. We all know that this was clearly done to push people onto the speed services, which has worked as nobody wants to spend over two hours on the train when the journey could take much less time if it did not stop everywhere along the way.
Although I feel for the smaller stations, I feel very angry that there has been no consideration for those of us who are further away from London and have to put up with ridiculous journey times unless we pay an expensive premium to use the high-speed services which terminate at the other end of London. The fact that the stations are quieter makes it even more surprising for me that they have two trains per hour!
It would be more sensible to do a survey to ask people east of Ashford whether they would prefer a fast mainline service to Charing Cross or are happy with the services to St Pancras rather than listening to the whining from people further down the line about fast services, who have more trains and shorter journey times and so the re-introduction of such a service wouldn't affect them anyway.
They can keep whatever services they have now but at least give us back our fast ones which were wrongly taken away from us! The whole business of a petition being set up is absolutely crazy as of course trains aren't going to stop calling at the smaller stations ever again and none of them will close at all! It is all so selfish to want to deny people who live further from London similar journey times as those who live close
Although I feel for the smaller stations, I feel very angry that there has been no consideration for those of us who are further away from London and have to put up with ridiculous journey times unless we pay an expensive premium to use the high-speed services which terminate at the other end of London. The fact that the stations are quieter makes it even more surprising for me that they have two trains per hour!
It would be more sensible to do a survey to ask people east of Ashford whether they would prefer a fast mainline service to Charing Cross or are happy with the services to St Pancras rather than listening to the whining from people further down the line about fast services, who have more trains and shorter journey times and so the re-introduction of such a service wouldn't affect them anyway.
They can keep whatever services they have now but at least give us back our fast ones which were wrongly taken away from us! The whole business of a petition being set up is absolutely crazy as of course trains aren't going to stop calling at the smaller stations ever again and none of them will close at all! It is all so selfish to want to deny people who live further from London similar journey times as those who live close
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The SE consultation was open to everyone who wanted to object. And I fear it's no longer realistic to expect longer journeys on a busy two track network to be as fast as shorter journeys anymore. We're at the point now where capacity is such that improvements means concessions and compromise.
Isn't that what those from the smaller stations want anyway ?
There must be plenty of opportunity for fast running between Ashford and Tonbridge at least, given the plethora of loops on the route. It's gone from having stoppers, semi-fasts, express and international trains to just two stoppers in an hour.
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mister-sparky
Member
It's the 2 track section between tonbridge and Orpington, and the bits closet to London that's the problem. There's now an extra 2tph to tunbridge wells that fitted into the vacant slots
tbtc
Veteran Member
It's good to see this thread finally reach a hundred comments - considering how important the SE franchise is and how many millions of journeys it provides - compared to some of the threads about building lines through the Scottish Highlands/ rural Wales etc.
Trouble is, there are obviously no easy solutions here - I'm a fan of simplifying services and maximising capacity by running neater patterns of trains (e.g. all services from a particular route going to Charing Cross or Cannon Street rather than a mixture of both) - but even simpler routes won't magic up a lot more capacity, given how busy lines are and how complicated the pinch points would be to fix (as we've seen with years of disruption at London Bridge).
It's interesting (as an outsider) to read about though - these are real problems with no cheap/simple/quick "solutions".
Whilst I appreciate the frustration with the move to HS1 (some winners, some losers), I don't know how you'd squeeze "new" services to Charing Cross nowadays - those paths through London Bridge have been taken up by other services so how do you find room for semi-fast middle distance Kentish services without taking away existing departures from Tunbridge Wells etc?
Trouble is, there are obviously no easy solutions here - I'm a fan of simplifying services and maximising capacity by running neater patterns of trains (e.g. all services from a particular route going to Charing Cross or Cannon Street rather than a mixture of both) - but even simpler routes won't magic up a lot more capacity, given how busy lines are and how complicated the pinch points would be to fix (as we've seen with years of disruption at London Bridge).
It's interesting (as an outsider) to read about though - these are real problems with no cheap/simple/quick "solutions".
Whilst I appreciate the frustration with the move to HS1 (some winners, some losers), I don't know how you'd squeeze "new" services to Charing Cross nowadays - those paths through London Bridge have been taken up by other services so how do you find room for semi-fast middle distance Kentish services without taking away existing departures from Tunbridge Wells etc?
It will be much easier to contain disruption, however.
The solution to that problem is not to duplicate the HS1 services -- it's to make HS1 into the real equivalent of Up Fast/Down Fast by scrapping the premium.
Agreed, Ashford has 3 distinct routes into London compared to just 1 for Tunbridge Wells, unless there's regular paths available via Redhill it won't be possible to get the trains through Tonbridge, and the Hastings line needs them more urgently.
Funnily enough before Southern took over the line, services DID used to run from Tunbridge Wells via Redhill up to London. Admittedly they were often 3/4 coaches but they did run.
I guess the paths are there at weekends but not weekdays, as Hastings diversions often run this way on Sat/Sun.
I noticed in the station usage data that the intermediate stops between Ashford and Tonbridge seem to get more passengers than those between Ashford and Maidstone East, therefore you wouldn't want to reduce the number of those on the former route especially (or the latter ideally).
How about an Express from the coast going fast Ashford - Maidstone East - London Bridge. The double track section between Otford and Swanley presumably isn't as full as that between Sevenoaks and Orpington.
Such a service would also have the benefit of providing a quality link from East Kent to the County town.
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There is already a service from Ashford International that calls at Bearsted, Maidstone East, Barming, East Malling, West Malling, Borough Green & Wrotham, Kemsing, Otford, Bromley South and London Victoria.
Now, if you could turn that into an all-stations train you could swap the stops off the service that comes from Canterbury West (Charing, Lenham, Harrietsham and Hollingbourne).
In order to remove the calls at West Malling, Borough Green & Wrotham and Otford you'd need to find some way to provide them with a replacement that's semi-fast. Good luck with that.
But then you might be able to achieve, from Canterbury West:
Chartham, Chilham, Wye, Ashford International, Bearsted, Maidstone East, (Swanley), Bromley South, London Victoria.
The challenge would be, would such a service be full? And could it be pathed effectively without catching up to the train ahead?
Now, if you could turn that into an all-stations train you could swap the stops off the service that comes from Canterbury West (Charing, Lenham, Harrietsham and Hollingbourne).
In order to remove the calls at West Malling, Borough Green & Wrotham and Otford you'd need to find some way to provide them with a replacement that's semi-fast. Good luck with that.
But then you might be able to achieve, from Canterbury West:
Chartham, Chilham, Wye, Ashford International, Bearsted, Maidstone East, (Swanley), Bromley South, London Victoria.
The challenge would be, would such a service be full? And could it be pathed effectively without catching up to the train ahead?
With the exception of Swanley and St Mary Cray, the 'semi-fast' doesn't really avoid any stops that a stopper would. If an additional path is available between Otford and Swanley, I would curtail this service at Maidstone East and let my new express to Charing Cross pick up the additional stop at Bearstead.
Alternatively, if an additional path wasn't available, I might replace a Bat & Ball service with the semi fast instead and stop the existing Maidstome East stopper additionally at Eynsford and Shoreham.
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JamesRowden
Established Member
If the plan for a 3tph North Downs service goes ahead, extend a Reading-Redhill service to Dover/Margate as a fast service east of Redhill greatly improving the rail connections between Surrey and southern Kent. Also provides an attractive non-London route between the West and the South East.
What are Barming, East Malling and Kemsing then? Scotch Mist?
The only train that starts at Maidstone East currently is the 0845 to London Blackfriars, which I assume is a remnant of the former Thameslink timetable.
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What are Barming, East Malling and Kemsing then? Scotch Mist?
The only train that starts at Maidstone East currently is the 0845 to London Blackfriars, which I assume is a remnant of the former Thameslink timetable.
I quote your post no 107 "There is already a service from Ashford International (or Ashford Kent, to give it it's correct title) that calls at Bearstead, Maidstone East, Barming, East Malling, West Malling, Borough Green and Wrotham, Kemsing, Otford......."
If this service exists, it is surely not Scotch Mist !
(As it happens, this post was typed between Bearstead and Hollingbourne !
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I quote your post no 107 "There is already a service from Ashford International (or Ashford Kent, to give it it's correct title) that calls at Bearstead, Maidstone East, Barming, East Malling, West Malling, Borough Green and Wrotham, Kemsing, Otford......."
If this service exists, it is surely not Scotch Mist !
You've confused the point. The service that I was quoting starts at Ashford International and calls at those stations, but it doesn't call at Charing, Lenham, Harrietsham or Hollingbourne. The one that stops there is the one that skips Barming, East Malling and Kemsing.
The salient point is that the line is not 'all-trains-all-stations' as some seem to make out. Concentrating the slow calls could speed up the opposing half-hourly service, but it might also require something to be overtaken somewhere to work, which presumably there isn't really an oppourtunity for.
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I don't see much point in having a service that starts at Ashford and goes fast to Bearstead. I would do away with this and replace it with my Kent Coast to Charing Cross via Maidstone.
MidnightFlyer
Veteran Member
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The Maidstone East line was 2tph, one all shacks, one semi-fast until it got rejigged a couple of years ago to the current fast east of Maidstone or fast west of Maidstone, IIRC it was at that time that the Canterbury West element came into play too. The phantom Maidstone East starter is also a recent development I believe, probably around the same recast as mentioned above. I seem to recall Maidstone East goes up to three trains an hour (utilising the bay) with the Thameslink proposals?
If Maidstone East is going up to three trains an hour, why would we expect there to be more demand for direct services to Bedford than to Folkestone and Deal. (just a thought out loud, not a challenge to Midnight Flyer).
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MidnightFlyer
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Cambridge
Reading the consultation documents it appears to be a case of simply linking up the excess Cambridge stopper to somewhere, with the added bonus of reconnecting Maidstone East to London Bridge, and presumably allowing the Kemsing etc calls to be culled altogether from the Ashford (and beyond ) services.Maidstone's an odd one. It's the county town, one of the (or the?) biggest settlements in Kent but for years it felt no benefit from the new St Pancras / High Speed services, and certainly until the Canterbury West services came, lacked any decent connectivity beyond London, Ashford, Medway or Tonbridge.
There was a network express from the coast to Charing Cross via Maidstone, which ran from Folkestone. I can't remember whether it was Saturdays only though.
From my days growing up in the area, Maidstone and Canterbury used to be the go-to places for a day out.
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Cambridge
Maidstone's an odd one. It's the county town, one of the (or the?) biggest settlements in Kent but for years it felt no benefit from the new St Pancras / High Speed services, and certainly until the Canterbury West services came, lacked any decent connectivity beyond London, Ashford, Medway or Tonbridge.
I suppose the other alternative might be to extend the Thameslink to the coast in that case. It would be a shame not to go to Charing Cross though, given how well sited it is.
urpert
Member
When I lived there briefly in 2005 there was an NSE - era sign on the footbridge claiming the down platform was for "stations to Ashford and the Kent Coast". Not sure that really proves anything though.
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