Derby City Council have put out a tender for a Osmaston to Infinty park bus route. It's funded by D2n2 so I'm not sure if any Wellglade companies can bid as Ian Morgan is a D2N2 board member. Also Skippy and Irwin from Bartons got called in by Cotgrave Town Council in Feb, and the Council told me they want to change the route in Cotgrave as the new Housing Development and Industrial estates in the area have to provide £600k towards public transport. But as far as I'm aware the contracts have to go out to tender.
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Nottingham 'Bus War'
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They do take the Zigzag Plus, as do all Kinch services.
MCR247
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Oh I hadn't realised they were that bad
As an outsider looking in, it looks like Nottingham have a really good bus network, but what is reliability like? I notice that the entire NCT network except for the Navy group (& the 53) passes through one single road junction in the city centre. How does that work in practice?
tldr: - as long as the city is flowing normally they are generally ok.
The road network in the whole city is very susceptible to a single incident causing delays throughout the city. NCT try there best to keep a service running and often terminate short (esp on the Navy 49) to keep some sort of service running. In fairness to NCT they appear to try there best, but with the best will in the world are limited by the traffic. If the bus is late it's fair to say there is heavy traffic, and if it's cancelled the most likely cause is gridlock in the city.
IME (going back a few years since I was a daily NCT user mind) - the Brown, Purple, and Lime services were reasonably reliable - but as I was on the core part of the route there was one every few minutes anyway. Yellow line (and the 70/72/73 before that) was variable, morning rush hour being particular bad. My regular routes now are the Green line - morning pretty much 100% reliable, snow is the only real issue. Evening - about 3/5 of the time would it be anywhere near reliable - if Forest or the Cricket are on forget it. The 3, 10, and 11C regularly have to miss stops out/terminate short due to badly parked cars too.
IMHO A bus lane over Trent Bridge would bring huge improvements to the reliability of the bus service which have to use it.
The city loop is a pain in the rear - From Lloyds to the Railway station it's taken anywhere up 30 minutes (well apart from that one time a few days after July 7 where a bomb scare meant I gave up after an hour with the bus still on Maid Marion Way, walked home, got a shower, went to the pub, had a drink and was just about to tuck into tea when the held up buses all went down Trent Blvd - It was actually that day that made me realise I could walk home in the evening rush quicker than using the bus, although for a number of years I only bothered walking on evening match days!).
The junction you mentioned earlier isn't actually a problem, the buses get through that ok - the problem they have is actually reaching it - Parliament Street has too many people crossing it to allow the free flow of buses. When the city council ends up putting bouncers on the Zebra crossing outside Boots to give the buses a chance of getting down Parliament Street you realise just how much of a weak point that road is!
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Mitch in Notts
Member
I agree with Kevjs comments on that junction being relatively good to clear. The big issue is the narrowness of Milton Street, which stems from poor planning by the designers at the City Council when the City Centre layout was completely reconfigured a few years ago. Designed primarily for buses, it is far too narrow, and a slightly overhanging taxi opposite the bottom end of Victoria Centre with a bus in the laybay outside Victoria Centre, makes it really difficult for two buses to pass each other on the street. For that reason Trentbarton rerouted their Rainbow One and The Two round the Guildhall the other year to avoid the Milton Street congestion.
Mitch in Notts
Member
Just answered an online email survey on Trentbarton 27 which I have been using for over 15 years. Seems to be focused on the possibility of providing a through link to Derby. Via where I don't know!"!
Would potentially make sense in providing quicker Derby - IKEA journey times.
Would potentially make sense in providing quicker Derby - IKEA journey times.
tbone
Member
Ilkeston flyer buses have been fitted with route colour indicators (like Rainbow One, Mickleover etc) which I'm sure don't come cheap. Maybe they've been put in for a reason...
nottinghamcity
Member
TrentBarton to purchase a significant number of ADL E200s now on their website:
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news
Robertj21a
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nottinghamcity
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Apologies if so, I saw it as confirmation of earlier observations, since this was the first time I had seen a press release/ public article.
The quoted info in the post on 9th May was identical.
Mitch in Notts
Member
Significant changes in Ilkeston, Stapleford and the Vale of Belvoir from late July:
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/changesjuly2017
21 & 23 combining as a through Heanor-Nottingham route every 30minutes but no longer serving Cotmanhay as direct via Heanor Road.
18 cut to hourly between Beeston & Stapleford due to tram effect.
V1 axed from Wychwood Estate at Bingham.
V2 axed ENTIRELY. This would see the end of the last of the old Barton Vale of Belvoir Village links to Nottingham.
No doubt Nottinghamshire County Council will step in with a replacement but there will be no through buses to the city centre from the likes of Cropwell Bishop or Langar anymore.
According to the Nottingham Post (Sat 27 May) the Rushcliffe Mainline Peak journeys are also withdrawn between Bingham & Bottesford.
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/changesjuly2017
21 & 23 combining as a through Heanor-Nottingham route every 30minutes but no longer serving Cotmanhay as direct via Heanor Road.
18 cut to hourly between Beeston & Stapleford due to tram effect.
V1 axed from Wychwood Estate at Bingham.
V2 axed ENTIRELY. This would see the end of the last of the old Barton Vale of Belvoir Village links to Nottingham.
No doubt Nottinghamshire County Council will step in with a replacement but there will be no through buses to the city centre from the likes of Cropwell Bishop or Langar anymore.
According to the Nottingham Post (Sat 27 May) the Rushcliffe Mainline Peak journeys are also withdrawn between Bingham & Bottesford.
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That's not good news concerning V2 for the people who live out in those villages. For me it just becomes another area of Nottinghamshire where using public transport will be less convenient and more expensive. l try to do a walk of a few miles each week in the Nottinghamshire countryside and when possible like to leave my car at home and use public transport to the area where I'm walking. I've used the V2 quite often for this purpose and so must get a few walks done in that direction before late July. This is now another area abandoned by Trent Barton which makes my Mango Card less useful. I really wished we had a multi operator ticket available in Nottinghamshire as it is now becoming so expensive to have to keep paying for journeys on different buses.
It does seem that Trent Barton have really decimated all the routes in Nottinghamshire that were previously operated by Barton just as they did when they took over Midland General. The routes that have traditionally always been operated by Trent do not seem to have been cut back so much. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it.
It seems highly unlikely that there's still anyone in authority (or at all?) working for TrentBarton who joined Trent Motor Traction before it became part of National Bus Company in 1968 and stayed there ever since (and it didn't take very long at all for NBC to make Midland General a satellite company of Trent). So it's unlikely to be a secret Trent-lover.
Instead if Ashworth is correct then previous generations of Trent management while it was under British Electric Traction (pre 1968) were much better than their counterparts at Midland General and Barton at identifying lucrative operating areas, nurturing traffic, and keeping intruders out of their area. This is actually possible. Barton were very much in touch with their local market but perpetually strapped for cash so growing by acquisition and adding new vehicles regularly wasn't an option until later years. Midland General was a subsidiary of a large group whose main business wasn't passenger transport during the years when the company areas were being defined, and sold it out to the British Transport Commission in the early 1950s, after which it became just another Tilling company with only the blue livery as a reminder of the past,
BET believed in growth by acquisition, in defending its areas originally by the classic bus-war techniques, and later in court, and had capital available for regular fleet renewal. Trying to take on one of its subsidiaries, such as Trent, produced a response equally aggressive as doing the same to Stagecoach does today. And Trent had fellow BET companies adjoining much of its own area, (Midland Red, North Western, Potteries) so co-operation rather than competition was the order of the day.
Barton did not cope well at all with deregulation, they registered all their routes apart from those already subsidised as being commercially operated whereas Trent etc were more savy with which ones they would continue with. All of the subsidised routes (7B, 36, 37, 39, 104, 105, 107, 127, 129, 132, 147 & 150) went to other operators although they did acquire a Saturday 6 between Harby and Bingham for a year and a half.
The sale to Wellglade will be 28 years ago on July 2 so is there has been any intended decimation its been pretty drawn out. On the basis of what might have been Plaxton, Julian Peddle (Stevensons of Uttoxeter), Stagecoach, NCT, a "property developer" and Bartons own executive staff all showed interest in taking Barton over.
Source for the above: Barton part 3 1962-1989 Alan Oxley 1994 Robin Hood Publishing ISBN 0 948854 08 1
I imagine the "property developer" would have flogged the bus operations off very quickly and it would be interesting to see what bus operations today would be like in Nottingham if any of Stagecoach, Arriva or First had acquired directly or eventually Barton.
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Mitch in Notts
Member
Following your comments I've looked at what Trent still operate that was Barton in 1986:
X42 - now Red Arrow - and that was joint with Trent anyway.
4 - now i4
5s & 10 - now Indigo
6 - now Keyworth Connection
15
18
21 - was Barton 51 & Ilkeston Town Services
22 as far as Cotgrave - now Cotgrave Connection
25 - now Calverton Connection.
Even around Nottingham a big chunk of the Barton network (eg 2, 3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 27, 32, 54) has gone or been severely curtailed - but then so have a lot of traditonal Trent routes around Nottingham, eg to Southwell, Big Wood, Gedling, Wollaton Vale etc.
X42 - now Red Arrow - and that was joint with Trent anyway.
4 - now i4
5s & 10 - now Indigo
6 - now Keyworth Connection
15
18
21 - was Barton 51 & Ilkeston Town Services
22 as far as Cotgrave - now Cotgrave Connection
25 - now Calverton Connection.
Even around Nottingham a big chunk of the Barton network (eg 2, 3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 27, 32, 54) has gone or been severely curtailed - but then so have a lot of traditonal Trent routes around Nottingham, eg to Southwell, Big Wood, Gedling, Wollaton Vale etc.
The 17 (or 117 as it was from April 1974) was axed by Barton themselves with the closure of the Stamford depot on 4 April 1988; the remaining services operating to Uppingham or Oakham as 2's if I have read the book I referenced above right.
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Mitch in Notts
Member
Sorry I was refering to Nottingham area services - 17 Long Eaton to Stapleford via Toton. I am fully aware of the gradual disappearance of firstly the Stamford and then the Melton area services. The 2, 56 (to Corby) and 117/8(to Stamford & Peterborough) all ran out of Nottingham along the Melton Road and southwards, though I am going back to the mid 1980s myself!
Weren't the various routes that Trent ran in the Wollaton Vale area originally routes that Trent inherited from the Midland General takeover and not traditional Trent routes. Midland General operated numerous routes out through Wollaton to destinations over the border into Derbyshire. Ilkeston, Heanor, Ripley, Alfreton, Eastwood etc. had a huge network of Midland General routes and many of these also served the western suburbs of Nottingham running into the old Nottingham Mount Street Bus Station. Midland General also operated a number of routes over the border into Derbyshire from places like Hucknall, Kirkby in Ashfield and Mansfield. Sections of the current Amberline and Black Cat routes were originally part of this network.
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Wasn't part of the i4 originally the Trent 102 in 1986 (Derby - Nottingham.- Bingham)?
Mitch in Notts
Member
Yes partly.
Trent 102 ran Bingham-Victoria-Derby every 20minutes in the 80s.
Barton 4 ran Broadmarsh-Sandiacre every 20minutes in the 80s (with Hourly extensions to Jackson Avenue or Ilkeston).
Combined 10 minute frequency with interchangeable tickets.
Mitch in Notts
Member
Definitely!
Trents core routes of the Rainbow 1 and 'Two' were old Midland General Routes, along with the 141 and now disappeared routes out of Nottingham such as those to Wollaton Village, South Normanton, Awsworth(via Kimberley) and Kirk Hallam( via Balloon Wood). In fact Langley Mill was of course the old Midland General HQ - Trent were at Uttoxeter Road, Derby.
Trents presence in Nottingham in 1972 was limited to:
36 Ollerton and Northwards(joint with EMMS)
60,61,67,83,84 Hucknall and Northwards
63 Mansfield & Chesterfield(joint with EMMS)
65, 66 Loughborough
67-72,77 Gedling
73-76 Burton Joyce and beyond (joint with MD 215).
78, 79 Radcliffe and beyond
80 Derby via Sandiacre
89 Rise Park Estate (joint with NCT)
X42 Derby Express (joint with Barton)
X53 Sheffield(joint with EMMS).
Only the Hucknall, Mansfield, Gedling, Radcliffe and Derby routes could be described as frequent at that time.
I wonder what they will use on the extended 21? Solos of The Allestree perhaps or the ex Nines ones, or will it be full sized single decks?
Going back further in time to the old Broad Marsh bus station (before the shopping centre was built) one thing that was strange was that the 17 to Peterborough shared the same stand as the 14/54 to Ruddington/Clifton. At least once I remember being yanked off the bus by a relative as it headed down the Melton Road instead of tuning right into Wilford Lane. Wonder if the other Melton Road services ran out of Huntingdon Street to explain why the 17 was not grouped with them.
I wasn't around in 1986, but I was 1992-1996.
The indigo brand took over from the 1 to Toton (after part of it had become the R5 connect and 506 (which briefly become an extension to the 14 and 54), 3, 3c to Melbourne, 10. R5, R5B, R5C, R5X and 310.
The 310 was an evening and Sunday service, part 3 and part 10, going to Loughborough via EMA. The evening service was run by Barton, the Sunday service every 3 hours by NCT.
On the topic of Broadmarsh bus station, I understand on Thursday that the council will finally vote to knock it down and it will happen over the summer.
Presumably there are plans already in place for bus operators? I'd be interested to hear more if anyone has any details.
Been told that Notts County Council are working on a replacement for the 22 or Villager 2 or whatever they call it. But Chris Ward at Notts County Council is off. Also rumours around that they want to either cut back the Kinch 9 or cancel it. The 03 plate Solars are falling to bits. 639 has massive cracks and holes in the floor at the rear.
They're planning to rebuild it.
It's going to be fun in the meantime - there's a lack of places for buses to stand in Nottingham. NX isn't going to be too easy either.
http://www.mynottinghamnews.com/end-in-sight-and-new-plans-for-broadmarsh-car-park-and-bus-station/
Shame that Victoria became so much smaller.
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