Potential New Central Pennine Rail Line (Colne-Skipton)

[yorksrob]

We did use a fully qualified Civil Engineer - and it was pointed out that though "everything is possible" - there is a cost. Trouble is Group Standards etc are horribly difficult to challenge.

Excellent point on a "competition" fund for projects - trouble is Government puts these in , and then pulls them - the Rail Partneship Fund - which I sat on as a decision maker put in some excellent schemes (the very best being Norwich to Cambridge by Anglia) - and in your neck of the woods the Sunday service to Clithero (though Colne was pulled interestingly and the train diverted to the former.(not much use) - just as it was getting together nicely - the funding was cancelled for all new schemes. A great shame.

Yes, it was a very short sighted decision of Gmt to cancel it.

I've often thought that what's needed is a a modern day version of a "light railway order" to allow existing formations to be reused, particularly where those extensions are unlikely to become high speed main lines.

 

[Pinza-C55]

It's a worthy scheme but I am suspicious when rail reopening ideas are voiced in the run up to a general election.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, it was a very short sighted decision of Gmt to cancel it.

I've often thought that what's needed is a a modern day version of a "light railway order" to allow existing formations to be reused, particularly where those extensions are unlikely to become high speed main lines.

No - it was the Treasury that caped the RPP funding schemes , much as they turned off the taps for Freight Facility Grants (for a while) .......both very useful schemes if the right ones were picked.

 

[yorksrob]

No - it was the Treasury that caped the RPP funding schemes , much as they turned off the taps for Freight Facility Grants (for a while) .......both very useful schemes if the right ones were picked.

The treasury is central Government.

 

[philthetube]

I will give you the fact that Pendle is on its arse and has been for a very long while, but I fail to see how Selrap solves it. The existing (and serving much larger conurbations) Copy Pit services mean that essentially you need to limit viable usage to Nelson and Colne towards Leeds, and Central and East Lancashire to Skipton and Craven, as well as, in fairness, any footfall from Earby. Whilst Skipton has tourist potential, I don't see how it's a huge draw for people from across the Pennines, and looking further down the line, I doubt highly demand from Keighley and Bingley into Pendle and East Lancashire is high enough to justify the cost of reopening.

Before anyone says anything, I am a native of the area and care deeply about it. However, I just don't see how this is the saviour many claim it to be.

Thats a bit insulting to the residents of Colne, Blacko Barnoldswick Trawden Laneshawbridge, Wycoller etc. Admittedly Nelson is not good but keep telling people these myths and you will make them true.

I walked down a street in London last week, London is horrible.

 

[philjo]

In the short term it would be better to extend the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and change there which would shorten the journey times from the Skipton line and give an indication of possible demand to/from Blackburn and stations towards Manchester.
That would need rolling stock but no major track investment to start with - though ideally a bay platform would be reinstated at Hellifield which would also allow reversal to Skipton if needed.
I believe under the proposed Northern timetable next year (as per the northern timetable thread) there is generally an hourly Leeds-Skipton -Hellifield service for a lot of the day - running either to Morecambe or Carlisle so hopefully the timetabling could provide a reliable connection without having to wait too long.
Perhaps it would be a better idea if the Clitheroe service could augment these and run to Ribblehead (or beyond) in the hours there isn't a Leeds train to give a through service from Manchester/Bolton areas.

 

[IanXC]

In the short term it would be better to extend the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and change there which would shorten the journey times from the Skipton line and give an indication of possible demand to/from Blackburn and stations towards Manchester.
That would need rolling stock but no major track investment to start with - though ideally a bay platform would be reinstated at Hellifield which would also allow reversal to Skipton if needed.
I believe under the proposed Northern timetable next year (as per the northern timetable thread) there is generally an hourly Leeds-Skipton -Hellifield service for a lot of the day - running either to Morecambe or Carlisle so hopefully the timetabling could provide a reliable connection without having to wait too long.
Perhaps it would be a better idea if the Clitheroe service could augment these and run to Ribblehead (or beyond) in the hours there isn't a Leeds train to give a through service from Manchester/Bolton areas.

This is exactly what I was thinking much more deliverable option - which probably has a reasonable chance of happening if persued.

 

[DarloRich]

But money isn't being well spent elsewhere. I fully support connecting Colne with Skipton as proof of using directed funding at source. I'd rather see a hundred such projects than one HS2.

yawn. HS2 will deliver benefits so far in excess of this project as to be like comparing an push bike with the Starship Enterprise.

Does this project actually deliver any tangible benefits? Surely the route via Copy Pitt offers just the same service opportunities with a decent connection to the Aire Valley at Hebden Bridge via the A6033?

....'The line pays for itself in 3 years'.......

Even if I could see any real justification for reinstating the link (and I can't), it's extremely unlikely that it would have a payback in anything like such a short time - as usual, the figures will be full of guesses, estimates and inflated hopes.

What are they planning on making the track out of? Cheese?What about missing bridges and structures? 3 year payback? If that were true the line would be open already.

lets be honest about the business case and the expected break even point. There isnt the proverbial pot to pee in so what money we have HAS to be spent very carefully. Is this the best use of scarce funds? I don't think so. Maybe when we have the next magic money tree harvest we can build. Until then the bus rules.

Perhaps the standards need reviewing. Obviously lost bridges need replacing, however the majority of the formation is in place.

The formation is not in place. The remains of the former route are. They have to be, essentially, rebuilt to modern standards as do all the structures

In the short term it would be better to extend the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and change there which would shorten the journey times from the Skipton line and give an indication of possible demand to/from Blackburn and stations towards Manchester.

My word - a sensible option! Leave this place never to return!

 

[lejog]

Reopening Skipton to Colne route has potential to add a third more in terms of overall benefits to the 25% improvements already demanded by Transport for the North, (Transformational)

Rather an exaggeration, the 25% cut in costs is a Rail North aspiration, certainly not a demand. But yes the report investigated a 25% cut in costs in rail across the study area and found a GDP benefit of £32.49m (p9 -Introduction). Colne to Skipton doesn't even warrant a mention until p91 (of 92 pages) as a sensitivity test on the modelling, where a GDP improvement of £43.5m is reported if the line were reopened, still assuming the 25% in costs i.e a difference of £11m attributable to the new line.

Modelling within the study shows that Reopening the Skipton to Colne rail line translates to a £43.5 million increase in Gross Domestic Product PA: ie. line pays for itself in under 3 years!

The modelling shows nothing of the sort. It shows an £11m increase due to the line reopening. You are totally incorrectly attributing the GDP benefits of a 25% cut in fares across the whole of Lancashire, much of West Yorkshire (Calderdale, Bradford and Leeds) and much of North Yorkshire (Skipton, York, Selby) to the Colne to Skipton line.

Even the £11m figure has little or no validity outside the 25% cut in costs assumption.

....'The line pays for itself in 3 years'.......

Even if I could see any real justification for reinstating the link (and I can't), it's extremely unlikely that it would have a payback in anything like such a short time - as usual, the figures will be full of guesses, estimates and inflated hopes.

Certainly totally inflated reporting of the benefits (or otherwise no inclusion in the costs of a 25% cut in rail fares across a large area of the North).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Thats a bit insulting to the residents of Colne, Blacko Barnoldswick Trawden Laneshawbridge, Wycoller etc. Admittedly Nelson is not good but keep telling people these myths and you will make them true.

I walked down a street in London last week, London is horrible.

My Grandfather was born in Nelson at the turn of the 20th century when times were good. When the mills went Nelson went with it. Apart from Colne the other places are really just villages aren't they?

 

[philthetube]

My Grandfather was born in Nelson at the turn of the 20th century when times were good. When the mills went Nelson went with it. Apart from Colne the other places are really just villages aren't they?

They are but they probably equate to the population of Nelson.

 

[John Webb]

......Does this project actually deliver any tangible benefits? Surely the route via Copy Pitt offers just the same service opportunities with a decent connection to the Aire Valley at Hebden Bridge via the A6033? .........

But as a frequent visitor to Yorkshire how reliable is the A6033 to Hebden Bridge? I've known it to be extremely unpleasant to drive due to rain or fog even in June or September; and I understand it can be closed in winter by snow and/or ice. (Although I appreciate that may not be a strong reason to reopen the Skipton-Colne on its own, but a possible factor?)

John Webb

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thats a bit insulting to the residents of Colne, Blacko Barnoldswick Trawden Laneshawbridge, Wycoller etc. Admittedly Nelson is not good but keep telling people these myths and you will make them true.

My Grandfather was born in Nelson at the turn of the 20th century when times were good. When the mills went Nelson went with it. Apart from Colne the other places are really just villages aren't they?

Indeed, I was not saying that the settlements within Pendle are bad places to live, or awful stains on the landscape (though I will say every godawful town in the country has nice villages on its doorstep), it is just that it has fared poorly over recent years compared to its neighbours. If you looks at that corner of Lancashire since the mills closed, Blackburn, Accy and Burnley are all relatively successful commercial centres with excellent transport infrastructure and links; Darwen also generally speaking has held its own in both regards. Pendle hasn't. Nelson town centre is bereft of any attraction and generally lacks the amenities other towns of its size has, and whilst Colne has the decent Boundary Mill complex, when I last visited (admittedly some time ago), it was hardly anything to write home about. Further, whilst Nelson has an impressive transport interchange, they have just one train per hour each serving them, on a torturously slow trek towards Blackpool, compared to the multiple trains per hour reasonable bus networks the larger towns further west enjoy.

 

[edwin_m]

In the short term it would be better to extend the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and change there which would shorten the journey times from the Skipton line and give an indication of possible demand to/from Blackburn and stations towards Manchester.

Might be better to provide some decent facilities at Rose Grove and see if connections can be improved between the Colne, Leeds and Manchester services. Connecting to one of these might be possible with no new rolling stock or mileage, though hitting both would need more trains on the Colne line which would require a passing loop as a minimum. This connects deprived areas to employment centres, whereas a change at Hellifield would only connect less deprived areas such as Skipton.

 

[bluenoxid]

I dont think anyone would seriously call Barlick a village.

Improving the service via Clitheroe might be beneficial but I dont see it improving the Pendle corridor.

 

[yorksrob]

The formation is not in place. The remains of the former route are. They have to be, essentially, rebuilt to modern standards as do all the structures

That is very much the problem in my opinion. If such gold plating isn't required on an existing route, it shouldn't be needed on an equivalent reopened one.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

My preferred option is to electrify the Copy Pit route which was very high (number 1) on the Northern Sparks Report all party. I would prefer money spent on that.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Except once they suffer the 'experience' that is Blackpool North, they will never go back!

The train from Colne goes to Blackpool South, much nicer and more convenient for buses and trams than Blackpool North!!
Traveling to Skipton area at present it can make sense from BPSouth - train to Preston, then bus to Skipton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... I dont see it improving the Pendle corridor.

Indeed, but it does demonstrate that we have a secondary route from East Lancashire towards (in this case North) Yorkshire already in situ and rather under-utilised as it is, without adding to the list further!

As for Pendle, surely a priority should be giving it improved rail links to its existing connections. A loop at Burnley Central would allow for a comfortable half-hourly service along the line, and some attempt to make Rose Grove a pleasant interchange for the Manchester / West Yorkshire services would help matters. A semi-fast service along the East Lancs may not be a bad idea: stopping at Colne, Nelson, Central, Accy, Blackburn, Bamber Bridge and Preston in addition to the current all-shacks would give Pendle a decent service, and also give Burnley, Accy and Blackburn a third train per hour to their nearest inter-city station, however given the current [low] loadings on Todmorden Curve services between Burnley and Blackburn I can't help but feel you'd struggle to justify it.

The Sunday service being upped to hourly from December 2017 is a good start in fairness.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The train from Colne goes to Blackpool South, much nicer and more convenient for buses and trams than Blackpool North!! Traveling to Skipton area at present it can make sense from BP South - train to Preston, then bus to Skipton.

It depends on which area of Blackpool you want to visit, especially if onward bus services are then required, as there are far better area bus service destinations available from the area bus stops near to Blackpool North station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A semi-fast service along the East Lancs may not be a bad idea: stopping at Colne, Nelson, Central, Accy, Blackburn, Bamber Bridge and Preston in addition to the current all-shacks would give Pendle a decent service, and also give Burnley, Accy and Blackburn a third train per hour to their nearest inter-city station, however given the current [low] loadings on Todmorden Curve services between Burnley and Blackburn I can't help but feel you'd struggle to justify it.

You have made a most valid point above, especially where it is emboldened.

 

[Bantamzen]

But as a frequent visitor to Yorkshire how reliable is the A6033 to Hebden Bridge? I've known it to be extremely unpleasant to drive due to rain or fog even in June or September; and I understand it can be closed in winter by snow and/or ice. (Although I appreciate that may not be a strong reason to reopen the Skipton-Colne on its own, but a possible factor?)

John Webb

I would imagine it is a difficult road in winter, with fairly frequent closures when the snow comes not to mention the occasional floods in the Calder Valley around Hebden Bridge these days. And weather notwithstanding, the Keighley buses (500) leave Hebden Bridge at xx.10 for most of the day, with the Blackpool train usually arriving at xx.34. So combined with the 50 minute transit to Keighley, going from the Colne/Burnley area to the Aire Valley via Hebden Bridge is unlikely to be a popular option. Heading back the other way is even worse, with buses timetabled to arrive at xx.50 and the Blackpool train at xx.52. Wouldn't fancy risking that connection everyday!

 

[edwin_m]

It depends on which area of Blackpool you want to visit, especially if onward bus services are then required, as there are far better area bus service destinations available from the area bus stops near to Blackpool North station.

It seems they have some funding to extend the tram to Blackpool North, thus nullifying one of the (few) advantages of South.

However I think I read on the Northern timetable thread that the Colne-South service was being split at Preston, and if this turns out to be the case there ought to be a bit more flexibility in its timings as well as turnaround time to recover delays.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However I think I read on the Northern timetable thread that the Colne-South service was being split at Preston, and if this turns out to be the case there ought to be a bit more flexibility in its timings as well as turnaround time to recover delays.

Isn't this just until resignalling and electrification and total blockade are finished?

 

[quantinghome]

That is very much the problem in my opinion. If such gold plating isn't required on an existing route, it shouldn't be needed on an equivalent reopened one.

Engineering moves on; it's a fact of life. To all intents and purposes this would be a brand new line, one that just happens to utilise a former route. If you need to build a new structure, it's got to be done to current engineering standards. Contractually, the designer must exercise 'reasonable skill and care' (aka follow up to date engineering standards) and all involved have a general duty of care. The desire to save money to improve the case for reopening the line would not be a very satisfactory defence argument when taken to court after some failure.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Engineering moves on; it's a fact of life. To all intents and purposes this would be a brand new line, one that just happens to utilise a former route. If you need to build a new structure, it's got to be done to current engineering standards. Contractually, the designer must exercise 'reasonable skill and care' (aka follow up to date engineering standards) and all involved have a general duty of care. The desire to save money to improve the case for reopening the line would not be a very satisfactory defence argument when taken to court after some failure.

EXACTLY - very well said.

 

[yorksrob]

Engineering moves on; it's a fact of life. To all intents and purposes this would be a brand new line, one that just happens to utilise a former route. If you need to build a new structure, it's got to be done to current engineering standards. Contractually, the designer must exercise 'reasonable skill and care' (aka follow up to date engineering standards) and all involved have a general duty of care. The desire to save money to improve the case for reopening the line would not be a very satisfactory defence argument when taken to court after some failure.

Yet we are able to have trams hurtling around with less satisfactory infrastructure and far lower standards of signalling.

 

[Deerfold]

But as a frequent visitor to Yorkshire how reliable is the A6033 to Hebden Bridge? I've known it to be extremely unpleasant to drive due to rain or fog even in June or September; and I understand it can be closed in winter by snow and/or ice. (Although I appreciate that may not be a strong reason to reopen the Skipton-Colne on its own, but a possible factor?)

John Webb

The A6033 closes to buses (and often all traffic) fairly often. Snow, flooding, car accidents. I see a tweet from Keighley buses at least once a month (outside of the winter period) showing a closure for at least several hours.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Yet we are able to have trams hurtling around with less satisfactory infrastructure and far lower standards of signalling.

In other words you believe that some of the current network is effectively running under "grandfather" rights as regards engineering standards and that therefore any re-openings should have the same "benefit". That'll never fly. And your comment about signalling is unjustified. Perhaps you'd care to expand your points to clarify...

 

[yorksrob]

In other words you believe that some of the current network is effectively running under "grandfather" rights as regards engineering standards and that therefore any re-openings should have the same "benefit". That'll never fly. And your comment about signalling is unjustified. Perhaps you'd care to expand your points to clarify...

Of course trams have lower standards of signalling, they're frequently line of sight.