Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[Dai Corner]

Because once you ensure people are safe, property is a simple financial matter. It's cheaper to take buildings insurance than to build a completely non combustible house with no combustible contents. And that's fine.

Insurance may be another possible factor in the Grenfell case. I believe that councils tend to self-insure i.e. they pay for any losses themselves rather than buying cover from insurance companies.

Private owners will insure, and the insurers will not provide cover if they're unhappy with the fire precautions or other aspects of the property.

If Glenfell Tower had been privately owned would the insurer have noticed the deficiencies and insisted they be addressed?

 

[BestWestern]

If Glenfell Tower had been privately owned would the insurer have noticed the deficiencies and insisted they be addressed?

I doubt it, the building was apparently fully compliant.

In the aftermath of this tragedy, there have been a number of announcements from owners and authorities whose buildings have been confirmed to be free of this particular type of cladding. There was one from the council in my home town. This has perhaps given the impression that Grenfell was a rarity. The reality, of course, is that there will be other buildings, maybe hundreds of them, covered in exactly the same stuff, and with owners who aren't in a hurry to shout about it.

 

[Dai Corner]

I doubt it, the building was apparently fully compliant.

That's what the contractor stated. No doubt the inquiry will look into that.

It turns out the building in fact is insured.

Norway’s Protector Forsikring is an insurer in a catastrophic blaze that roared through a 24-storey block of London flats, according to a Reuters report.

“As the insurance provider for Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, Protector Forsikring ASA is involved in the tragic fire in Grenfell Tower,” Protector said in a statement. “Our thoughts go to the people who lived in the building and their families. Protector will work closely with the local authorities and rescue teams.”

http://m.insurancebusinessmag.com/u...catastrophic-london-blaze-revealed-70432.aspx

 

[najaB]

Grenfell Tower fire: Hundreds plan to attend 'Day of Rage' outside Parliament on day of Queen's Speech

"We’ve felt our power. We’ve tasted victory. Now we must escalate our actions to take down this rotten government"

Hundreds plan to protest outside the Houses of Parliament on Wednesday (June 21), as anger rises following the fatal Grenfell Tower fire .

The 'Day of Rage' is set to be held one week on from the fire, on the day the Prime Minister addresses Her Majesty The Queen, ahead of the Queen's Speech.

It comes as the Metropolitan Police has now confirmed the number of people dead, or missing presumed dead following the fatal fire , has risen to 79.

Not political opportunism before the bodies are even buried. Not in the slightest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not political opportunism before the bodies are even buried. Not in the slightest.

Nope, absolutely not.

I see it's the same people behind this that have been behind all the other protests about austerity and Yarl's Wood and whatever else they have a bee in their bonnet about this week.

Nothing like hijacking someone else's tragedy, is there?

 

[AlterEgo]

Nope, absolutely not.

I see it's the same people behind this that have been behind all the other protests about austerity and Yarl's Wood and whatever else they have a bee in their bonnet about this week.

Nothing like hijacking someone else's tragedy, is there?

This is indeed very poor and I'll be sure to "pop down" to see them on my lunch break - I work a few hundred yards away.

 

[Dai Corner]

This is indeed very poor and I'll be sure to "pop down" to see them on my lunch break - I work a few hundred yards away.

See if there are any actual victims there. I'd imagine they're busy grieving for their loved ones, recovering from their injuries or trying to get their lives back together after losing their homes and possessions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Jeremy Corbyn could show his statesman-like side and condemn this "day of rage" noting the recent disasters that have befallen Manchester and London.

The wording that "we've felt our power and have tasted power" makes me wonder what was the victory and the power that they refer to.

All least they can now be seen in their true colours.

 

[Antman]

There is a huge dilemma coming for all the people living in the area of Grenfell Tower, particularly those in neighbouring tower blocks, and that is the continuing existence of Grenfell as a terrible reminder of what happened and the myriad lives both lost and destroyed. The authorities have indicated that it might take weeks, even months, of painstaking work to try to establish the total number of people killed, and to get DNA evidence of who each one was. While this goes on, and assuming the structure of the building is now considered stable, it cannot be demolished and there is already evidence of the effect on younger children (especially) in the area of seeing it continuing to stand there. I'm sure that it would be possible to cover the building with something robust (and inflammable) that allowed work to carry on in there but was less of a permanent and stark reminder of a dreadful tragedy.

When safe to do so I would imagine the building will be encased with scaffolding and tarpaulin but in the meantime there is really not much that can be done.

 

[AlterEgo]

See if there are any actual victims there. I'd imagine they're busy grieving for their loved ones, recovering from their injuries or trying to get their lives back together after losing their homes and possessions.

I will definitely report back.

 

[DarloRich]

Jeremy Corbyn could show his statesman-like side and condemn this "day of rage" noting the recent disasters that have befallen Manchester and London.

The wording that "we've felt our power and have tasted power" makes me wonder what was the victory and the power that they refer to.

All least they can now be seen in their true colours.

whereas the terribly decent Tory PM couldn't even bring herself to even speak to the victims of this terrible tragedy. :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

whereas the terribly decent Tory PM couldn't even bring herself to even speak to the victims of this terrible tragedy. :roll:

So statements to the opposite that she visited them in hospital is just a figment of someone's imagination?

 

[AlterEgo]

So statements to the opposite that she visited them in hospital is just a figment of someone's imagination?

Yes, well pointed out. What DarloRich should have said is that the PM did visit victims, in hospital, in a controlled environment, a couple of days after the event and a couple of days after being told by everyone from the public to her aides that she really ought to be showing more leadership.

 

[Darandio]

Yes, well pointed out. What DarloRich should have said is that the PM did visit victims, in hospital, in a controlled environment, a couple of days after the event and a couple of days after being told by everyone from the public to her aides that she really ought to be showing more leadership.

Except Paul will ignore this, as he has done so on the several times it has been pointed out to him already. Or he might respond with another question.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, well pointed out. What DarloRich should have said is that the PM did visit victims, in hospital, in a controlled environment, a couple of days after the event and a couple of days after being told by everyone from the public to her aides that she really ought to be showing more leadership.

Mrs May also met with victims for two and a half hours at Downing Street, listening to their concerns properly and deciding the action her Government could best take.

That's her personality / style - gather information and then make a considered decision. She's not really a PR and photo-opportunity person, which you need to be to be a politician these days.

 

[AlterEgo]

She's not really a PR and photo-opportunity person, which you need to be to be a politician these days.

Succinctly put.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It does seem to me that some on the left are trying to make political capital out of this which is disgraceful nobody should be doing that for such as terrible disaster as this fire, also a lot of people jumping to conclusions and accusations about who is to blame, when it needs to investigated properly.

I also wonder if regardless of what fire regulations you have for Tower blocks is it not time to consider that no one should have living accommodation that is above the height that can be reached by the fire service?

This is the thing, a tower block goes up in smoke and out comes the left with their Socialist Workers banners who are blaming the Tories for absolutley everything even when the area where Grenfell is, the local council is Labour. Therefore Labour are part responsible for the deaths as it was reported that the fire extinguishers had condemed marked on them, if the local council is using a Housing Association then all parties connected to the ownership of the structure is responsible.

What some of the left don't seem to realise is that those who lived in the high rise may not have had a choice on where to live to begin with, it was either a high rise or a cardboard box.

 

[simonw]

This is the thing, a tower block goes up in smoke and out comes the left with their Socialist Workers banners who are blaming the Tories for absolutley everything even when the area where Grenfell is, the local council is Labour. Therefore Labour are part responsible for the deaths as it was reported that the fire extinguishers had condemed marked on them, if the local council is using a Housing Association then all parties connected to the ownership of the structure is responsible.

What some of the left don't seem to realise is that those who lived in the high rise may not have had a choice on where to live to begin with, it was either a high rise or a cardboard box.

The council is not Labour controlled, it has always been Tory controlled.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_and_Chelsea_London_Borough_Council

 

[Tetchytyke]

when the area where Grenfell is, the local council is Labour.

The council is Conservative.

The tenant organisation was set up in 1995, under Conservative legislation.

The building was put up between 1972 and 1974, under a Conservative government.

The fire service cuts, including sales of fire stations, were done by a Conservative mayor.

You were saying?

 

[cjmillsnun]

This is the thing, a tower block goes up in smoke and out comes the left with their Socialist Workers banners who are blaming the Tories for absolutley everything even when the area where Grenfell is, the local council is Labour. Therefore Labour are part responsible for the deaths as it was reported that the fire extinguishers had condemed marked on them, if the local council is using a Housing Association then all parties connected to the ownership of the structure is responsible.

What some of the left don't seem to realise is that those who lived in the high rise may not have had a choice on where to live to begin with, it was either a high rise or a cardboard box.

The local council (Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council) is very definitely Conservative (they hold 40 seats out of 50) and has been since 1964. Whilst the ward councillors are Labour, they do not hold power.

However central government are responsible for ratifying changes to building regulations, and the balance of power has definitely shifted in that time, including since buildings were clad in aluminium sandwich cladding (either the rockwool fire retardant type or the cheaper PE type)

Politicians of all colours are responsible for the neglect and knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing by getting things done unnecessarily cheaply and having corners cut.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Is there enough room around it for a controlled implosion?

Its probably not worth the risk, it'd probably be better to take it down bit by bit as some homes on the south side of it appear to be unscathed (curtains / blinds are in good condition).

 

[BestWestern]

Mrs May also met with victims for two and a half hours at Downing Street, listening to their concerns properly and deciding the action her Government could best take.

That's her personality / style - gather information and then make a considered decision. She's not really a PR and photo-opportunity person, which you need to be to be a politician these days.

She also made a 'considered decision' to blatantly ignore the question about why she misjudged the mood so badly when she appeared on Question Time. Makes you wonder why she didn't just point out that the apparent ignoring of the victims while she stood at the scene was simply "her style".

 

[NorthernSpirit]

As what others have said - I stand corrected on the local council front.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Mrs May also met with victims for two and a half hours at Downing Street, listening to their concerns properly and deciding the action her Government could best take.

That's her personality / style - gather information and then make a considered decision. She's not really a PR and photo-opportunity person, which you need to be to be a politician these days.

She met them, promised they would be involved, then promised £5000 each...without discussing it with them at all.

Maybe she is more private and reserved, but she was perfectly happy to be snapped with the police and fire officers. They don't ask awkward questions, do they.

 

[Antman]

The council is Conservative.

The tenant organisation was set up in 1995, under Conservative legislation.

The building was put up between 1972 and 1974, under a Conservative government.

The fire service cuts, including sales of fire stations, were done by a Conservative mayor.

You were saying?

The fire stations that were sold were no longer fit for purpose. Anyway the fire brigade were there within 6 minutes so isn't this irrelevant?

 

[Busaholic]

When safe to do so I would imagine the building will be encased with scaffolding and tarpaulin but in the meantime there is really not much that can be done.

Notices have now gone up in the area, to the effect that this is not a tourist attraction and please refrain from taking photos - any one who needs to be told this is unfortunately unlikely to take the slightest notice.

 

[EM2]

The fire stations that were sold were no longer fit for purpose. Anyway the fire brigade were there within 6 minutes so isn't this irrelevant?

If appliances had to come from further away (for example, if appliances from the nearest stations had been attending another call), it could have been a lot longer than six minutes.
If stations weren't fit for purpose, why not replace them with ones that are?

 

[najaB]

If stations weren't fit for purpose, why not replace them with ones that are?

It may well be that changes to the urban landscape meant that they were in sub-optimal locations, meaning that two or three small stations could be replaced with one larger station without significantly impacting on response times. That was certainly the case in my area.

 

[Dai Corner]

She met them, promised they would be involved, then promised £5000 each...without discussing it with them at all.

Maybe she is more private and reserved, but she was perfectly happy to be snapped with the police and fire officers. They don't ask awkward questions, do they.

You must have missed this announcement then? The £5000 each was just an initial payment to help the victims in the immediate aftermath.

Like I said, May isn't as good on the PR side as she needs to be.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-victims-of-the-grenfell-tower-disaster

During a meeting with survivors of the fire, she announced a £5 million fund would be made available to pay for emergency supplies, food, clothes and other costs.

The proposals followed a visit by the Prime Minister to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, where people who had escaped the blaze said they had been left with no possessions or money.

The PM then chaired a meeting of a cross-Whitehall group of senior ministers and officials to agree a full range of help, which she set out to a group of residents, victims, volunteers and community leaders during a visit to the Clement James Centre near Grenfell Tower.

The package includes:

a commitment that victims who lost their homes in the disaster must be rehoused at the earliest possible opportunity and that we should aim to do this within 3 weeks at the latest

a guarantee to rehouse people as close as practically possible to where they previously lived, meaning they can continue to access the same public services, such as their local school or local GP – this rehousing would be in the same borough and, if not, a neighbouring borough

until people are rehoused, the cost of temporary accommodation will be met on their behalf

the government will also provide any necessary financial assistance to families who have been rehoused so children and their parents do not incur any extra costs in travelling to their local school

the new £5 million Grenfell Tower Residents’ Discretionary Fund, made immediately available and given to the local authority to distribute – this could be used to cover loss of possessions, funerals and emergency supplies
confirmation the Treasury will work with banks to ensure that those affected by the disaster who lost possessions like bank cards still have access to their accounts

the Department for Work and Pensions are working with local job centres to ensure that those affected have access to the benefits and pensions they would normally receive

The Prime Minister also gave reassurance to the victims of the fire that they will be consulted on the terms of reference for the upcoming Public Inquiry. This will allow them to help shape the scope of the Inquiry so they can get the answers they are seeking.

The victims and their families will receive state funding for legal representation at the Public Inquiry.

 

[BestWestern]

Like I said, May isn't as good on the PR side as she needs to be.

Isn't she supposed to have people to do that for her?