Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[JamesRowden]

If Maidstone East is going up to three trains an hour, why would we expect there to be more demand for direct services to Bedford than to Folkestone and Deal. (just a thought out loud, not a challenge to Midnight Flyer).

I believe that Off-peak the Maidstone East line will have 6tph formed of 2tph to Victoria, 2tph Thameslink and 2tph freight. There will also be the 2tph Sevenoaks Thameslink service via Otford affecting pathing. The obvious way to provide an express service on the line would be to reduce the number of stops on a Victoria service. Both Victoria services could run beyond Ashford. Potentially 1tph via Canterbury West and 1tph via Folkestone.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe that Off-peak the Maidstone East line will have 6tph formed of 2tph to Victoria, 2tph Thameslink and 2tph freight. There will also be the 2tph Sevenoaks Thameslink service via Otford affecting pathing. The obvious way to provide an express service on the line would be to reduce the number of stops on a Victoria service. Both Victoria services could run beyond Ashford. Potentially 1tph via Canterbury West and 1tph via Folkestone.

Does the route really need two freight paths ?

I don't believe the route particularly needs two Thameslink's in isolation. I would stretch one of these paths into a coastal express (preferably going to Charing X instead) rather than reducing services to the intermediate stations.

 

[JamesRowden]

Does the route really need two freight paths ?

It is the trunk route for channel tunnel and East Kent freight. I would think far easier than sending the freight via Sevenoaks or East Croydon.

 

[Antman]

It is the trunk route for channel tunnel and East Kent freight. I would think far easier than sending the freight via Sevenoaks or East Croydon.

But there is nowhere near enough freight to justify 2 paths an hour. Although Maidstone has two stations it does seem to get a raw deal with just a few peak hour high speed trains to and from Maidstone West, otherwise it's a rather slow journey into London and no direct service to the coast. There have been many calls to reinstate the Ashford to Cannon Street service that was axed a few years ago. I think the current 2tph between Maidstone East and Ashford is adequate but if one of these was rerouted to Cannon Street maybe a fast service from Maidstone East to Victoria calling only at West Malling and Bromley South? I also wonder if 2tph between Maidstone West and Paddock Wood/Tonbridge could be justified with one running non stop? I can't help thinking 4tph to Tunbridge Wells is a bit excessive, maybe one could be extended fast to Hastings and the other rerouted fast to Ashford and beyond although it would take passengers away from the more expensive high speed service.

 

[Roast Veg]

Having only 3tph to sunny tunny would make for 30 minute wait times (since they can't be spread evenly if the 4th service still goes via Tonbridge) which ruins the turn-up-and-go attitude of many passengers that use the line at present.

 

[Starmill]

I don't really understand what kind of market an express service from Deal or Folkestone to Maidstone is going to serve. Clearly its not realistic to run non-stop from Maidstone to London either because the train wouldn't be full with just the Maidstone East passengers onboard! I think the Bearstead calls clearly need to be kept too. I would say enhancing the fast service to London from Maidstone West and Snodland would be much more useful.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't really understand what kind of market an express service from Deal or Folkestone to Maidstone is going to serve. Clearly its not realistic to run non-stop from Maidstone to London either because the train wouldn't be full with just the Maidstone East passengers onboard! I think the Bearstead calls clearly need to be kept too. I would say enhancing the fast service to London from Maidstone West and Snodland would be much more useful.

Isn't the whole point of the Governments proposal to speed up classic services between the Kent Coast and London, however we don't want to reduce services to stations between Ashford and Tonbridge.

Better connectivity for Maidstone is an added bonus.

 

[AddieH]

I'm not sure why people are so concerned about better connectivity and faster journey times. I thought frequency and predictably of routes was considered most important?

If you chose to live so far from London you shouldn't be surprised it takes a while to get there.

 

[telstarbox]

Considered more important by who?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If the plan for a 3tph North Downs service goes ahead, extend a Reading-Redhill service to Dover/Margate as a fast service east of Redhill greatly improving the rail connections between Surrey and southern Kent. Also provides an attractive non-London route between the West and the South East.

From the consultation document:

For instance the Ashford to Tonbridge line, which connects on to Redhill and Reading under other operators, could form part of a fast and frequent London orbital service, taking pressure away from the M20 and M25. As it is journeys are faster via London and this potential link is underused.

That implies that what you are suggesting is already being thought about by TfL. Presumably it also would imply the return of fast trains between Ashford and Tonbridge (I can't imagine that they'd want to stop all the London trains AND all the orbital trains at all stations along that line).

 

[ScotGG]

I'm not sure why people are so concerned about better connectivity and faster journey times. I thought frequency and predictably of routes was considered most important?

If you chose to live so far from London you shouldn't be surprised it takes a while to get there.

"Choose"?! For some perhaps. For others it's being pushed further and further out by very high house prices and rents, and govt schemes have pushed up prices by double figures making it ever harder without wealthy parents. The ratio of average wage to average housing costs is now way above long term averages. Far above what it was for most of the past 60 years.

And to state people are less concerned with journey times? Not many I know. They want to be home to enjoy time with friends, family and children.

 

[AddieH]

In case it wasn't clear, I was deliberately presenting a contra position to my first post. It saved me from having to explain why the response I got for the "benefits" to the Bexleyheath line doesn't wash at all.

 

[KashmireHawker]

I'm sure there's another thread somewhere on SouthEastern, but I can't seem to discover it.

So I'll pop the info of the news from Mr Grayling on the announcement of SE's Franchise bidders - of whom are:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bidders-for-2-rail-franchises-named-by-government

• 
  [*]South Eastern Holdings Ltd, a joint venture company that on franchise award will be wholly owned by Abellio Transport Group Ltd and East Japan Railway Company and Mitsui & Co Ltd
  [*]London and South East Passenger Rail Services Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Govia Ltd
  [*]Stagecoach South Eastern Trains Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Stagecoach Group plc
  [*]Trenitalia UK Ltd, wholly owned by Trenitalia SpA
  

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said:

South Eastern is one of the busiest franchises in the UK, running almost 2,000 services every weekday. We want passengers to be at the heart of everything that the new operator does, enjoying modern, spacious trains on a more punctual and reliable service. We will listen to what passengers say in the current public consultation, and we will seek to make changes and improvements only with their support.

The Secretary of State has been clear that his ambitions for the franchise include:

• Creating more space for passengers on modern comfortable trains
• Increasing the reliability of trains by using the latest technology while reducing delays by encouraging the operator to work closely with Network Rail
• Improving passenger compensation arrangements and supporting smart ticketing
• Improving customer service, with staff able to respond quickly and effectively, including during disruption

The consultation for people to share their views and priorities for the South Eastern franchise runs until 30 June 2017. The new franchise is planned to start in December 2018.

 

[fgwrich]

Stagecoach is an interesting one, as not only will they be wanting to regain a 'flagship franchise' after the loss of SWT, but if they win it they'll have to consider a visit from the Moderation of Competition lot - They operate large swathes of the bus network from East London out into Kent and East Sussex. Baring the Medway and Tonbridge areas, I think nearly all of Kent is Stagecoach bus led.

 

[swt class 450]

I'm sure there's another thread somewhere on SouthEastern, but I can't seem to discover it.

So I'll pop the info of the news from Mr Grayling on the announcement of SE's Franchise bidders - of whom are:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bidders-for-2-rail-franchises-named-by-government

Well i am very disappointed that Govia are bidding for it. They should be banned from bidding for any franchises. Lets just hope they don't win it.

 

[telstarbox]

Stagecoach is an interesting one, as not only will they be wanting to regain a 'flagship franchise' after the loss of SWT, but if they win it they'll have to consider a visit from the Moderation of Competition lot - They operate large swathes of the bus network from East London out into Kent and East Sussex. Baring the Medway and Tonbridge areas, I think nearly all of Kent is Stagecoach bus led.

If you draw a line from Leysdown to Newenden, that roughly divides the Arriva and Stagecoach territories.

 

[fgwrich]

If you draw a line from Leysdown to Newenden, that roughly divides the Arriva and Stagecoach territories.

I think it's a little wider than that, as Stagecoach also operates in Hastings and Eastbourne. Either way it'll flag up the Competition Authorities.

Still, if they did win it, it could always save them having to repaint the 458s if they do move across.

 

[Clip]

I think it's a little wider than that, as Stagecoach also operates in Hastings and Eastbourne. Either way it'll flag up the Competition Authorities.

Still, if they did win it, it could always save them having to repaint the 458s if they do move across.

HAsnt this whole bus thing been debunked many times on here already? I mean how many bus routes did stagecoach do when they had SWT or first who now have it for that matter?
Everytime.

 

[Blindtraveler]

IMO Govia have done no major wrong on Southeasten, with this I say if it aint broke.....

 

[swt class 450]

IMO Govia have done no major wrong on Southeasten, with this I say if it aint broke.....

Southeastern is probably the second worse franchise in the UK after GTR (GN/GX/SN/TL). They have huge problems with customer service and reliability etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

IMO Govia have done no major wrong on Southeasten, with this I say if it aint broke.....

I agree. Give it to Govia. Then merge it with GTR.

 

[Bromley boy]

Southeastern is probably the second worse franchise in the UK after GTR (GN/GX/SN/TL). They have huge problems with customer service and reliability etc.

Is that right?

Generally it's performing far better than southern. Obviously there's the odd appalling day where everything goes wrong but lots of the delays, such as there are, are caused by the ongoing London Bridge works.

 

[urpert]

Creating more space for passengers on modern comfortable trains

They just can't stop dropping hints that the bidders are expected to scrap the Networker fleet in favour of 700-alikes, can they?

If you draw a line from Leysdown to Newenden, that roughly divides the Arriva and Stagecoach territories.

Plus the substantial TfL operations around Bromley and Orpington by Stagecoach Selkent, of course, though they aren't technically "competitive".

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that right?

Generally it's performing far better than southern. Obviously there's the odd appalling day where everything goes wrong but lots of the delays, such as there, are are caused by the ongoing London Bridge works.

More reliable than SWT or GA for the last 3 months. Considerably so.

 

[Bromley boy]

More reliable than SWT or GA for the last 3 months. Considerably so.

As I suspected.

Anecdotally, as you probably know better than me, SE's PPM/right time has been very good indeed recently. Quite a few days of 90% PPM and 75%+ "right time" (i.e. arrival within 1 minute of booked time).

Inevitably there's the odd bad day/week. Lightning strikes today, a train gapped outside Cannon st on Monday and a fatality at Hither Green at the height of the morning peak yesterday means this week hasn't been great.

I may be biased but I'd say, on the whole, SE's service is generally pretty good!

 

[ScotGG]

I think most SE passengers would say anyone but Govia, but with the DfT really holding power will it matter?

GoVia operate the Networkers with just about the worst reliability of any UK stock, including the re-tractioned ones. Even the newer 376s have the worsr reliability of any of the 37x family.

Inherent problems or Govia? Stagecoach have taken stock with very poor maintenance and took them to the top of UK reliability.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think most SE passengers would say anyone but Govia, but with the DfT really holding power will it matter?

GoVia operate the Networkers with just about the worst reliability of any UK stock, including the re-tractioned ones. Even the newer 376s have the worsr reliability of any of the 37x family.

Inherent problems or Govia? Stagecoach have taken stock with very poor maintenance and took them to the top of UK reliability.

I'm not doubting you, but do you have reliability figures for these types of stock to hand?

 

[ScotGG]

Is that right?

Generally it's performing far better than southern. Obviously there's the odd appalling day where everything goes wrong but lots of the delays, such as there are, are caused by the ongoing London Bridge works.

No they were very poor before 2015. Maybe not as bad as Southern but not much of a barometer and still worse than most TOCs.

There's been periods when stock shortages lasted for weeks and getting any info was like pulling teeth.

They are rubbish at passing on info. I think it was due to some stock alterations but they never said anything publicly.

They've also not been pro-active at all, on the whole, with staffing and improved stock. There's no staffing most of the time at stations with huge growth such as Deptford. Most stations have barriers left open all day.

The Networkers are pretty grotty now and they've done nothing to improve them apart from a very light refresh in all the time they've had the franchise (11 years).

A lot of the problems just get no publicity so aren't known on a wider level. Just this week a train failure at Cannon Street (alongside a NR signal issue - not their fault) caused the station to be closed in the evening peak with mass crowding. There was no coverage of it in the press or even on specialist sites/forums like this. Paddington issues got far more coverage.

 

[ScotGG]

I'm not doubting you, but do you have reliability figures for these types of stock to hand?

Check out the golden spanner awards in Modern Railways. Normally featured around the start of the year. They list all stock by type eg DMU, EMU

 

[Bromley boy]

No they were very poor before 2015. Maybe not as bad as Southern but not much of a barometer and still worse than most TOCs.

There's been periods when stock shortages lasted for weeks and getting any info was like pulling teeth.

They are rubbish at passing on info. I think it was due to some stock alterations but they never said anything publicly.

They've also not been pro-active at all, on the whole, with staffing and improved stock. There's no staffing most of the time at stations with huge growth such as Deptford. Most stations have barriers left open all day.

The Networkers are pretty grotty now and they've done nothing to improve them apart from a very light refresh in all the time they've had the franchise (11 years).

A lot of the problems just get no publicity so aren't known on a wider level. Just this week a train failure at Cannon Street (alongside a NR signal issue - not their fault) caused the station to be closed in the evening peak with mass crowding. There was no coverage of it in the press or even on specialist sites/forums like this. Paddington issues got far more coverage.

I can shed some light on the Cannon st woes. A 6 car networker leaving p4 on a single yellow ended up gapped and requiring assistance. I understand the CST dispatch procedure has been amended so that trains will no longer be sent out on a single yellow. This issue affects networkers, particularly shorter formations, more than 376s due to the networkers only having one set of shoe gear at the end of each four car unit.

Agreed the information sharing was poor on Monday. It was all blamed on signalling issues, as I recall.