New c2c trains

[Mikey C]

I see no reason why C2C wont be getting new trains as agreed, the 379's apart from not being new, are more medium distance config seating wise which they would probably need to change, I expect they will order new trains tailored to their requirements which maybe more of a 700 style seating layout, i.e. narrow 2+2 seating with wide corridor connections.

This is more a general comment, rather than a C2C specific one, but it's just that we seem to be buying loads of new trains at the moment, and while it's fine to start scrapping PEPs and early Mk3 based stock, if the press (or politicians) see perfectly decent stock in storage or being scrapped they might start questioning the logic, and the waste of money, especially when most franchises are being subsidised by the DfT who are facing spending cuts...

 

[jopsuk]

I see no reason why C2C wont be getting new trains as agreed, the 379's apart from not being new, are more medium distance config seating wise which they would probably need to change, I expect they will order new trains tailored to their requirements which maybe more of a 700 style seating layout, i.e. narrow 2+2 seating with wide corridor connections.

Seating can be stripped out and entirely replaced.

 

[47802]

Seating can be stripped out and entirely replaced.

I'm sure it can but probably at significant cost, leasing costs for the 379's are alleged to be very high, they can probably get a better deal on new stock to there own spec as Greater Anglia are doing and meet the franchise spec for new trains. On the other hand they could take the 379's on the grounds that some Rail Enthusiasts are keen to see them reused.

 

[jopsuk]

on I'm not saying the 379s are likely to or should go to C2C, I think new stock in accordance with the franchise agreement more likely. Just saying that current seating layout is no barrier to them being turned into high density stock.

As for the leasing costs? Lloyds-TSB will have to figure out what the market will bear on that.

 

[D365]

As for the leasing costs? Lloyds-TSB will have to figure out what the market will bear on that.

Now there's a blast from the past

 

[Mikey C]

I'm sure it can but probably at significant cost, leasing costs for the 379's are alleged to be very high, they can probably get a better deal on new stock to there own spec as Greater Anglia are doing and meet the franchise spec for new trains. On the other hand they could take the 379's on the grounds that some Rail Enthusiasts are keen to see them reused.

If the leasing costs are too high then nobody will take the 379s, and the leasing company will be stuck with an expensive asset earning no revenue!

Or alternatively...the leasing company will drop the price, and they'll then be more attractive.

 

[47802]

If the leasing costs are too high then nobody will take the 379s, and the leasing company will be stuck with an expensive asset earning no revenue!

Or alternatively...the leasing company will drop the price, and they'll then be more attractive.

Well yes obviously, it doesn't mean to say C2C will be interested though.

 

[Expression357]

The jan timetable does fix some of the issues, but not all of them. Also c2c going fully DOO allowed them to have more 12 cars in peak. But now barely anything is stopping them from running 12 cars over the loop, which are needed in the morning. Not so much as in the evening, crowding is much less at that time except in the 4 cars.

The lack of 12-car DOO equipment on the Tilbury Line platform extensions would be such a problem.

I dread to thing what will happen when one of the 387s breaks down at Limehouse or West Ham, using all 6 at the same time can be a bad decision, (not aware on what their doing about converters in 357s).

Emergency coupling and a subsequent slow drag from where ever to East Ham or Shoeburyness.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is more a general comment, rather than a C2C specific one, but it's just that we seem to be buying loads of new trains at the moment, and while it's fine to start scrapping PEPs and early Mk3 based stock, if the press (or politicians) see perfectly decent stock in storage or being scrapped they might start questioning the logic, and the waste of money, especially when most franchises are being subsidised by the DfT who are facing spending cuts...

The press only had a collective field day ranting about the average age of our rolling stock being 21 yrs only a week or two ago, why would they possibly then worry about new trains replacing old?

 

[hwl]

If the leasing costs are too high then nobody will take the 379s, and the leasing company will be stuck with an expensive asset earning no revenue!

Or alternatively...the leasing company will drop the price, and they'll then be more attractive.

A short spell off lease should help to sharpen minds at the leasing company and reduce future costs to another TOC. The 379s were their only rail leasing deal if memory serves.

 

[Mikey C]

The press only had a collective field day ranting about the average age of our rolling stock being 21 yrs only a week or two ago, why would they possibly then worry about new trains replacing old?

"New Train Scandal

Why, oh why, oh why are are fat cat rail operators splashing out on new trains, many made in Europe, and ultimately paid for by the taxpayer, when perfectly good trains are being scrapped......British taxpayers propping up ailing European manufacturers....etc"

I can write the alternative press story

 

[43096]

"New Train Scandal



Why, oh why, oh why are are fat cat rail operators splashing out on new trains, many made in Europe, and ultimately paid for by the taxpayer, when perfectly good trains are being scrapped......British taxpayers propping up ailing European manufacturers....etc"



I can write the alternative press story

Last time I checked, Derby was in Europe. Has it moved?

 

[47802]

"New Train Scandal

Why, oh why, oh why are are fat cat rail operators splashing out on new trains, many made in Europe, and ultimately paid for by the taxpayer, when perfectly good trains are being scrapped......British taxpayers propping up ailing European manufacturers....etc"

I can write the alternative press story

Of course the 379's will probably get used elsewhere there are at least 2 years until they come off lease assuming there are no delays to Anglia's new trains, so I see no reason to get excited about it at this stage.

 

[185143]

Last time I checked, Derby was in Europe. Has it moved?

Not yet. But Brexit and all that...

 

[Mikey C]

Last time I checked, Derby was in Europe. Has it moved?

Siemens, CAF, Stadler...just merely suggesting what the press might say

And now with C2C being taken over by the Italians, it's a foreign operator that can be "bashed"

 

[Camden]

Think Northern have recently ordered 4 car EMUs. Wonder if they could tack an order onto the end of that.

 

[Class377/5]

Last time I checked, Derby was in Europe. Has it moved?

Derby is a flat pack assembly line with its HQ in Berlin. Its a foreign company just with some UK employees.

 

[47802]

Derby is a flat pack assembly line with its HQ in Berlin. Its a foreign company just with some UK employees.

I know many people on here like to do Derby down, but the fact is they do assemble trains here, use some UK suppliers, and I believe have some design and engineering function at Derby.

 

[jon0844]

Do they make the buttons here?

 

[D365]

Do they make the buttons here?

I sincerely hope that this is a rhetorical question of yours...

:roll:

 

[Class377/5]

I know many people on here like to do Derby down, but the fact is they do assemble trains here, use some UK suppliers, and I believe have some design and engineering function at Derby.

They design and assemble parts. They do not build parts there. Things like motors are built elsewhere and shipped there. Most modern European train building locations do the same in turth.

Note the big investment in design after the Crossrail order was won with the Unions (and Derby's support) screaming about foreign companies getting the big orders (forgetting the fact Bombardier are that).

And Bombardier put as much UK content in to the Adventra as Siemens do for the Desiro Cities. And Siemens have more staff in the UK than Bombardier without counting the none rail sectors IIRC with massive investments in after sales so the truth is far more complex but the companies are fairly equal in terms of investment, just in different ways.

 

[Mollman]

Derby is a flat pack assembly line with its HQ in Berlin. Its a foreign company just with some UK employees.

That is the way with modern rolling stock, the factory just assembles the parts from different suppliers although some will still build the body shell components on site.

 

[47802]

They design and assemble parts. They do not build parts there. Things like motors are built elsewhere and shipped there. Most modern European train building locations do the same in turth.

Note the big investment in design after the Crossrail order was won with the Unions (and Derby's support) screaming about foreign companies getting the big orders (forgetting the fact Bombardier are that).

And Bombardier put as much UK content in to the Adventra as Siemens do for the Desiro Cities. And Siemens have more staff in the UK than Bombardier without counting the none rail sectors IIRC with massive investments in after sales so the truth is far more complex but the companies are fairly equal in terms of investment, just in different ways.

As per usual you a knack of suggesting things that were never actually said, I never suggested they did make parts there., but that they did use some uk suppliers.

Your comment about bombardier winning the Crossrail order because of the unions seems to be something of an assertion by you, although Siemens pulling out may of helped although bombardier having supplied most of the recent stock to tfl may also have helped along with a uk assembly plant.

 

[Class377/5]

As per usual you a knack of suggesting things that were never actually said, I never suggested they did make parts there., but that they did use some uk suppliers.

Your comment about bombardier winning the Crossrail order because of the unions seems to be something of an assertion by you, although Siemens pulling out may of helped although bombardier having supplied most of the recent stock to tfl may also have helped along with a uk assembly plant.

Perhaps you should read what I said as I never said a singe thing about Bombardier winning the order than after they won a big order then they invested in the site.

Perhaps stop your own assuming to suit your views? I stated facts, not beliefs.

 

[jon0844]

I sincerely hope that this is a rhetorical question of yours...

:roll:

It's my equivalent of people who always mention 442s!

 

[47802]

Note the big investment in design after the Crossrail order was won with the Unions (and Derby's support) screaming about foreign companies getting the big orders (forgetting the fact Bombardier are that).

.

Well you must have a different understanding of the above comment to me then.


In any case we getting away from the point as we don't know who is going to get the C2C order at present. Maybe it will be an Italian based manufacturer now

 

[absolutelymilk]

Still no word on what the new c2c trains for 2019 will be! Do any manufacturers even have enough spare production capacity to get trains into service by 2019?

 

[fgwrich]

Still no word on what the new c2c trains for 2019 will be! Do any manufacturers even have enough spare production capacity to get trains into service by 2019?

Well, with Bombardier, Stadler and Hitachi all looking very busy until around 2019/2020, that's starting to leave us with 3 other options - Something from Alstom, A new batch of CAF Civity units or a Siemens 700 derivative - the 707s could even be useful to replace the 357/3s?

 

[gc1982]

Some of the class 379's displaced from Greater Anglia would be a good fit? the number of decent EMU's without a home will already be large enough by 2019/2020 without ordering more!

 

[D365]

Will any of the Class 360/379/707 fleets be free in time for when c2c requires the additional units to be in service?