New c2c trains

[Mordac]

Some of the class 379's displaced from Greater Anglia would be a good fit? the number of decent EMU's without a home will already be large enough by 2019/2020 without ordering more!

I think the franchise agreement specifies they have to be new.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the franchise agreement specifies they have to be new.

It did, but I also think it is reasonable to say the "goalposts have moved" since then, what with GA total fleet replacement being announced.

 

[3141]

I think the franchise agreement specifies they have to be new.

Although everything about railways tends to be complicated, with a TOC not buying trains but leasing them from a ROSCO, it would make sense for C2C to look to take on 379s, since its current fleet consists entirely of Electrostars, and for the DfT to be prepared to modify the franchise terms. That assumes that the ROSCO that owns them is willing to offer a good deal, but it may do so rather than have trains only a few years old standing on sidings and doing nothing.

 

[samuelmorris]

379s are on contingency into 2020, the new stock at c2c was due by 2019, they would be a reasonable fit, but over-specified and not available soon enough.

I'm somewhat expecting a request made for some additional Class 710s with fully 2+2 transverse seating, similarly specified to the metro 357 conversions. With only 17 4-car units required, they could probably fit that into the 2019 production timeframe, delivered after completion of the LO 710s.

 

[chris11256]

The only problem is the introduction into service of the new stock. it isn't all in 2019, it's spread across 4 years. With 9 units in 2019, 4 in 2022 and 4 in 2024

 

[absolutelymilk]

The only problem is the introduction into service of the new stock. it isn't all in 2019, it's spread across 4 years. With 9 units in 2019, 4 in 2022 and 4 in 2024

Would make it even easier to get more 710s in time!

 

[edwin_m]

Will GWR have some 387s spare, due to (1) having to order bi-modes for the Oxford services, and (2) Crossrail taking over the Reading stoppers? Or has this already been factored into their fleet size?

 

[samuelmorris]

The only problem is the introduction into service of the new stock. it isn't all in 2019, it's spread across 4 years. With 9 units in 2019, 4 in 2022 and 4 in 2024

I didn't realise that - in which case yes, see what absolutelymilk said. I'm puzzled by why that's necessary though. Why would they defer the introduction of such a small number of units like that?

Will GWR have some 387s spare, due to (1) having to order bi-modes for the Oxford services, and (2) Crossrail taking over the Reading stoppers? Or has this already been factored into their fleet size?

Pretty sure the Crossrail takeover was known about years before it was decided GWR were getting 387s, I wouldn't believe for a minute that they wouldn't consider that.

 

[edwin_m]

Pretty sure the Crossrail takeover was known about years before it was decided GWR were getting 387s, I wouldn't believe for a minute that they wouldn't consider that.

Yes for Crossrail itself and the extension to Reading, but the removal of GWR stopping trains east of Reading was fairly recent, and the Crossrail train order was increased by a couple to allow for it.

 

[Mikey C]

It did, but I also think it is reasonable to say the "goalposts have moved" since then, what with GA total fleet replacement being announced.

If c2c swapped the commitment for new trains for a commitment to nearly new trains, but increased the number, would anyone complain?

 

[43096]

Don't forget that the cc 387s are part of the new trains commitment, so some of the promised stock is already in service. I suspect the 387s will be off-leased once deliveries start of whatever is ordered for the full requirement.

 

[chris11256]

If c2c swapped the commitment for new trains for a commitment to nearly new trains, but increased the number, would anyone complain?

I wouldn't object as long as it wasn't 2+2 'metro' style. We already have people standing from Southend Central/Westcliff on some peak fast trains.

 

[wls1]

I wouldn't object as long as it wasn't 2+2 'metro' style. We already have people standing from Southend Central/Westcliff on some peak fast trains.

The metros are widely hated across the line, when a metro strays onto a high peak fast, notably 1B17, its been seat-less after Southend East.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Given that both GA and SWTs (FirstMTR) are replacing modern stock (458s for SWTs, 360s for GA and iirc their 379s), is it possible that c2c will go down the same route and replace their entire fleet at the same time?

 

[D365]

... is it possible that c2c will go down the same route and replace their entire fleet at the same time?

You're being deliberately ignorant of the fact that the large majority of the SWT 'red fleet' and the Greater Anglia fleet consists of ex-BR rolling stock. c2c's fleet was delivered entirely during privatisation.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You're being deliberately ignorant of the fact that the large majority of the SWT 'red fleet' and the Greater Anglia fleet consists of ex-BR rolling stock. c2c's fleet was delivered entirely during privatisation.

The 458s weren't ex-BR stock and they're not part of the "red fleet" either

 

[D365]

The 458s weren't ex-BR stock and they're not part of the "red fleet" either

But they don't form the vast majority of the units that the Aventras are replacing. They're only being replaced because it makes sense to have a common fleet once the order book is opened.

 

[jopsuk]

Given that both GA and SWTs (FirstMTR) are replacing modern stock (458s for SWTs, 360s for GA and iirc their 379s), is it possible that c2c will go down the same route and replace their entire fleet at the same time?

Probably not. The mass fleet replacements (including modern stock) have been announced at the point where a franchise has been announced. The current C2C franchise was announced in 2014 and included the commitment for additional stock then. I think they've even tendered publicly for the additional stock? They have a long franchise till 2029, so I doubt we'll get surprises.

Presumably the additional stock (17 units) will be "metro" with the current "metro" 357s re-set to standard configuration

 

[absolutelymilk]

Still no word on these units?

 

[gc1982]

Have not heard anything. I think it is safe to say, that these will be second hand units? Most likely 379's? Don't think there is enough time to procure anything else - unlikely to be anything else other than a Bombardier product, and they are pretty busy well into 2020/21.

 

[Mordac]

Have not heard anything. I think it is safe to say, that these will be second hand units? Most likely 379's? Don't think there is enough time to procure anything else - unlikely to be anything else other than a Bombardier product, and they are pretty busy well into 2020/21.

Second hand units would require an amendment to the franchise agreement. Of course, such things have been known to happen, I don't mean to suggest that that makes it an impossibility. Just that the franchise agreement specified new units.

 

[superalbs]

I can't see another electric order going ahead. There will be far too many electrics already, another order makes that even worse. Not very good when diesels are what we really need.

 

[D365]

The issue with taking on the 379s is (as above) the franchise requirement, and I believe the current interior is not ideal for the route?

 

[class387]

The issue with taking on the 379s is (as above) the franchise requirement, and I believe the current interior is not ideal for the route?

If the franchise allows, they could quite easily be refurbished to something higher density. The six 387s don't really have a suitable interior either.

 

[absolutelymilk]

If the franchise allows, they could quite easily be refurbished to something higher density. The six 387s don't really have a suitable interior either.

Alternatively, could they be used for the longer distance services with the 357s remaining in the current metro configuration?

 

[D365]

Alternatively, could they be used for the longer distance services with the 357s remaining in the current metro configuration?

That was my thinking, as I’m not sure how quickly the 379s will be displaced by the 745s.

 

[jimm]

Don't forget that the cc 387s are part of the new trains commitment, so some of the promised stock is already in service. I suspect the 387s will be off-leased once deliveries start of whatever is ordered for the full requirement.

No, they are not.

The 387s are being used by c2c on a short-term lease, which runs until 2019 and is separate from the proposal to lease 68 more coaches (or 17 four-car sets) for c2c services from 2019. DfT agreed to let them have the 387s, from Porterbrook's speculative order, to meet an urgent need for extra capacity.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ease-to-cope-with-unprecedented-demand/136369

 

[wls1]

The mp for Rainham did manage to find something, whether its correct or not is a different matter.
https://joncruddas.org.uk/c2c-success-services-back-track

"C2C are currently in the process of reshaping their services to accommodate for the new Beam Park housing development, which will include new trains bringing a total of 60 new carriages to the line"

 

[43096]

No, they are not.

The 387s are being used by c2c on a short-term lease, which runs until 2019 and is separate from the proposal to lease 68 more coaches (or 17 four-car sets) for c2c services from 2019. DfT agreed to let them have the 387s, from Porterbrook's speculative order, to meet an urgent need for extra capacity.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ease-to-cope-with-unprecedented-demand/136369

The 387s are on short-term lease, yes, but the fact that they then go off-lease when the 17 new sets arrive says they are part of the 17 sets in the franchise agreement - just that they were brought in sooner than under the original franchise agreement and the available stock was the 387s.

That is how it was explained at the time, and the facts support this.

 

[jeromeroberts]

Pure speculation but I think it could be possible for C2C to retain the 6x387 and compiment it with 15x387/1 from Great Northern allowing the entire 365 fleet to remain with GN when the 700’s arrives.