New c2c trains

[bramling]

Pure speculation but I think it could be possible for C2C to retain the 6x387 and compiment it with 15x387/1 from Great Northern allowing the entire 365 fleet to remain with GN when the 700’s arrives.

Works on paper - 15x 387 replaced with potentially 21x365. Whether it would be politically acceptable to ditch 'new' trains so soon is a matter for debate -- a lot of GN users clearly prefer the 365s, but the 387s do have some features the 365s lack. A political sweetener could be to fit wi-fi and plug sockets to the 365s, perhaps air conditioning too.

 

[superalbs]

Works on paper - 15x 387 replaced with potentially 21x365. Whether it would be politically acceptable to ditch 'new' trains so soon is a matter for debate -- a lot of GN users clearly prefer the 365s, but the 387s do have some features the 365s lack. A political sweetener could be to fit wi-fi and plug sockets to the 365s, perhaps air conditioning too.

Well the amount of dislike that GN commuters apparently have for the 387s, it'd be politically great in my view!

 

[jimm]

The 387s are on short-term lease, yes, but the fact that they then go off-lease when the 17 new sets arrive says they are part of the 17 sets in the franchise agreement - just that they were brought in sooner than under the original franchise agreement and the available stock was the 387s.

That is how it was explained at the time, and the facts support this.

The fact the 387s go off lease when the 17 new sets start to arrive would, to most minds, suggest quite the opposite of what you claim.

And can you please show us where to read an 'explanation' from last year to support your claim, instead of baldly stating that 'the facts' support you?

The explanation offered by c2c in the story I was linked to was that there was an urgent need for new capacity and that they could not wait another three years - hence the 387s were secured as an interim measure.

And during a meeting with rail user groups in June last year, Julian Drury, the md of c2c, said the following:

Last Friday, we signed the contracts for the 24 new Class 387 carriages that we will be adding to our fleet for the next three years.

https://www.c2c-online.co.uk/media/9995295/rail-user-group-minutes-07-06-2016.pdf

That's three years, not five, not 10, just three. Do you know something that Mr Drury doesn't?

 

[Hadders]

Pure speculation but I think it could be possible for C2C to retain the 6x387 and compiment it with 15x387/1 from Great Northern allowing the entire 365 fleet to remain with GN when the 700’s arrives.

An excellent suggestion. I'd be more than happy to see the 365s remain on GN.

 

[class387]

An excellent suggestion. I'd be more than happy to see the 365s remain on GN.

Agreed, though in reality it is about as likely to happen as the 442 rumours a while back.

 

[physics34]

The issue with taking on the 379s is (as above) the franchise requirement, and I believe the current interior is not ideal for the route?

Latest rumour out of the southern ranks is that DfT want Southern to be an all Electrostar franchise....... so that would mean Electrostars replacing 455s, 313s etc. The 379s could easily join southern in the future.

 

[class387]

Latest rumour out of the southern ranks is that DfT want Southern to be an all Electrostar franchise....... so that would mean Electrostars replacing 455s, 313s etc. The 379s could easily join southern in the future.

The 379s aren't dual voltage though. Perhaps GN 387s to Southern displaced by 379s or 365s? (This is really ridiculous now )

 

[D365]

The 379s aren't dual voltage though.

Adding shoes isn’t difficult.

 

[D365]

Latest rumour out of the southern ranks is that DfT want Southern to be an all Electrostar franchise....... so that would mean Electrostars replacing 455s, 313s etc. The 379s could easily join southern in the future.

IPEMUs to replace the Turbostars then?

 

[AlexNL]

Adding shoes isn’t difficult.

Is that enough? I can imagine that other things which are needed for DC operation aren't present on the 379s.

 

[class387]

Adding shoes isn’t difficult.

But it would be easier not to.

The 379s are much more suitable for Cambridge expresses than the 387s (once a candidate for IEPs), given their high quality interior and the fact they worked there on GA, and not very suitable for the higher density Southern services.

 

[D365]

Is that enough? I can imagine that other things which are needed for DC operation aren't present on the 379s.

Fuses, maybe. Why would the electrical architecture of the Class 379 be much different?

 

[bramling]

Latest rumour out of the southern ranks is that DfT want Southern to be an all Electrostar franchise....... so that would mean Electrostars replacing 455s, 313s etc. The 379s could easily join southern in the future.

I could cope with the idea of TSGN being all Electrostar, that would mean rid of the vile class 700s! Would miss the 365s though.

 

[wipers]

I'm sure that this will end up being another order of AVENTRA trains from Bombardier. As others have stated, the trains have to be new, and almost certainly a Bombardier product given the current fleet. I'm sure that the planners could squeeze 60 carriages in to the production schedule and keep all parties happy.

 

[physics34]

IPEMUs to replace the Turbostars then?

*except 171s

 

[phil281]

Latest rumour out of the southern ranks is that DfT want Southern to be an all Electrostar franchise....... so that would mean Electrostars replacing 455s, 313s etc. The 379s could easily join southern in the future.

Saw this and worked something out

There are on southern:
46x 4/455 units
20x 3/313 units

Which = 66 units

To replace these:

30 x 379 off lease units
36 x 376 ex southeastern units

Which = 66 units...

Southeastern take on 36x458s from SWR to replace 376 units.

Internally within southern/gtr, the 3/377 units that make up 10/377 formations on the southern metro go back to the coast, replaced by the 376 units. Remaing 376 units then replace 455 units on victoria based metro routes (making it a complete 10 car railway with 5/377 units). The 4/377 units in the 10/377 formations replace the 4x3/377 formations on the East Grinstead line. The 379s could be used with their superior internal configuration, on the gatwick express. The 387s displaced from here are painted green and replace the 455 units on the tulse hill route (which is restricted to 8 car operation due to platform lengths)

Pure speculation, but could work?

 

[wls1]

Well the amount of dislike that GN commuters apparently have for the 387s, it'd be politically great in my view!

Please no, c2c commuters dislike the 387s and metros just as much, but with the 387s, theres only 6 so it doesn't make much difference.

 

[wipers]

Why do people dislike them so much?

 

[Wivenswold]

Phew, that's the sound of can of worms being opened. I don't think 387s are that bad but the only positive reports seem to come from GWRs ones but they are a huge upgrade on the DMUs there, IMO.

 

[wipers]

Haha. I've only ever really used the GN 387's between King's Cross and Finsbury Park and don't think they're that bad but I'm usually standing and don't really care about facilities given the short journey. A couple of weekends ago I was on a GWR 387 from Slough to Paddington and agree completely that they're a massive step up - really smart. As I've said in other threads tho', a bit like the 700's vs. 707 - basically the same trains but feel so different.

 

[wls1]

Why do people dislike them so much?

Lack of seats really
12 car 357: 846 seats
12 car metro: 666
12 car 387: 675

They've tried to put the 387s on services that weren't as busy, but now lots of are people standing.

 

[bramling]

Why do people dislike them so much?

Lack of seats basically, which is not compensated for by extra standing room. From a standing point of view they’re no better than a 2+3 317.

For those fortunate enough to get a seat the hard seats are not popular, and the armrests get in the way, especially in the window seats as the ones by the windows are fixed down.

Finally like other Electrostars the 387s ride rather roughly, however the effect is made worse by the hard seats which transmit the jolts rather than soften them.

They’re not awful trains by any means, but compared to others they give a rather poor journey experience.

 

[class387]

Lack of seats basically, which is not compensated for by extra standing room. From a standing point of view they’re no better than a 2+3 317.

For those fortunate enough to get a seat the hard seats are not popular, and the armrests get in the way, especially in the window seats as the ones by the windows are fixed down.

Finally like other Electrostars the 387s ride rather roughly, however the effect is made worse by the hard seats which transmit the jolts rather than soften them.

They’re not awful trains by any means, but compared to others they give a rather poor journey experience.

I have always found that the 357s actually rode quite smoothly for an Electrostar (correct me if I'm wrong), so that could make the 387s even less popular.

The 387s were great on the long distance Thameslink services - in my opinion the best we've had - and as said on GWR. However, most of the other routes they run on are extremely unsuitable.

 

[bramling]

I have always found that the 357s actually rode quite smoothly for an Electrostar (correct me if I'm wrong), so that could make the 387s even less popular.

The 387s were great on the long distance Thameslink services - in my opinion the best we've had - and as said on GWR. However, most of the other routes they run on are extremely unsuitable.

Interesting, as I agree the 357 do seem smoother than other Electrostars. One wonders if this is because they don’t go above 75mph on the LTS line, but having decent seats probably helps too!

 

[jopsuk]

379s, when they come off lease, will ideally need a new interior for whatever they get used for. The seating capacity, though I'm not quite sure what it is, is v.low. That 2+1 1st class is hugely wasteful (and takes up more than half a carriage), and they have a dock for catering trolleys.

 

[class387]

379s, when they come off lease, will ideally need a new interior for whatever they get used for. The seating capacity, though I'm not quite sure what it is, is v.low. That 2+1 1st class is hugely wasteful (and takes up more than half a carriage), and they have a dock for catering trolleys.

Gatwick express would be good and they will probably be fine on Kings Lynn fasts too.

 

[samuelmorris]

Kings Lynn and Cambridge would seem a better idea, apart from not needing a DC conversion, however simple that may be, swapping one airport-oriented unit for another makes very little sense, even if the 379s are held in much higher regard than the 387/2s.

Has it been established if there is much likelihood of a better lease being negotiated if the 379s change hands? I understand exorbitant rates were a factor in their withdrawal.

 

[wls1]

Interesting, as I agree the 357 do seem smoother than other Electrostars. One wonders if this is because they don’t go above 75mph on the LTS line, but having decent seats probably helps too!

No 357s are knackered and shake all over the place, just as bad as each other.

Kings Lynn and Cambridge would seem a better idea, apart from not needing a DC conversion, however simple that may be, swapping one airport-oriented unit for another makes very little sense, even if the 379s are held in much higher regard than the 387/2s.

Has it been established if there is much likelihood of a better lease being negotiated if the 379s change hands? I understand exorbitant rates were a factor in their withdrawal.

Kings Lynn needs more of a commuter style seating arrangement as their rammed at peak times and the lack of seats really wont help. Tbh 379s dont really suit GA, if they were airport only then they would be perfect but since not, their rubbish at anything else.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think Kings Lynn fasts was referring to GN, not GA. That's how I interpreted it and what I based my post on.

As for comments of the 357s being 'knackered', I think some context is needed compared to some other units on the network...

 

[wls1]

Their worse than they were, which is expected from a train thats almost 20 years old, but not "knackered" like 313s or pacers. Some hyperbole was used.