New c2c trains

[edwin_m]

Also seen it reported that they'll be 100mph variants.

As are the 387s. There may be thoughts about increasing part of the route above 75mph, which might be worthwhile in returning peak trains fast and empty to do a second loaded journey in the same peak. In any case modern three-phase motors don't have the same trade-off between maximum speed and acceleration that DC motored units had, and financing is probably easier for a unit that could be transferred to a 100mph service later in its life.

 

[samuelmorris]

Heh, why don't I place wagers on these things? I'd be rich by now :P

Bombardier have really got it right with the Aventra platform, they'll be absolutely omnipresent soon.

With regard to the bringing forward of the introduction, I imagine that's probably in part due to the unexpected overcrowding issues that arose when they introduced their new timetable objective. Extrapolate 6 years of organic growth on top of that, easy to see why they took the option to accelerate delivery as soon as they could. I'm curious what the extra units will be though - the fact they haven't already been seen to be doing this and have specified 2019 at the earliest makes me think they'll be something going off lease at that time, so possibly ex-GA units?

As for 100mph, pretty sure that covers every unit - 357s are 100, 387s are 110 and the other units they are presumably looking at would also be 100. I've often wondered if there was any scope to up the speed between Upney and Benfleet to at least 90, if not 100, but I don't know the route east of West Horndon well enough to know of any reasons why not. I can't ever see the branches being upgraded, I don't imagine the calling pattern warrants it.

 

[Mikey C]

What compatible stock will be free in 2019, especially as I presume they'll want 4 car 20m units, rather than the 5 car 707s or 458s?

 

[samuelmorris]

I imagine it'll be 321s or 317s. I don't think the SW stock would be off-lease by 2019 anyway would it?

 

[Domh245]

What compatible stock will be free in 2019, especially as I presume they'll want 4 car 20m units, rather than the 5 car 707s or 458s?

Definitely won't be the 458s - it looks like it'll be a short term lease, which will make conversion to OLE unviable (more so than it already is). Having had a quick look through the Greater Anglia Franchise Agreement, it could be the 321 Renatus, which come off lease on 1/12/2019.

 

[Class 317722]

Is there any reason why the 387s can’t have their lease extended and be kept to 2021?

 

[Fred43123]

Is there any reason why the 387s can’t have their lease extended and be kept to 2021?

Their lease has been increased to 2021.

 

[Domh245]

Is there any reason why the 387s can’t have their lease extended and be kept to 2021?

From the press release: "Last year c2c introduced 24 new carriages on a short-term contract, and these units will now be extended until the arrival of the new fleet". The issue they face is the requirement to introduce 36 vehicles by 30/10/2019, which they won't be able to do with the order announced today, so they're looking at an short term lease to meet that before the proper fulfilment.

 

[edwin_m]

Does the transfer of some services to Crossrail and the abandonment of branch electrifications leave GWR with too many 387s?

 

[47802]

Does the transfer of some services to Crossrail and the abandonment of branch electrifications leave GWR with too many 387s?

I'm sure they were well aware of services transferring to Crossrail, and the total Number of EMU's was reduced with additional AT300's covering Oxford fast services

 

[rebmcr]

315 or 317 units released from TfL Rail duties would seem the prime candidates.

 

[chris11256]

315 or 317 units released from TfL Rail duties would seem the prime candidates.

Think there would be riots if they tried to introduce those.

Plus would they be able to match the 357/387 timings?

 

[Alfie1014]

As are the 387s. There may be thoughts about increasing part of the route above 75mph, which might be worthwhile in returning peak trains fast and empty to do a second loaded journey in the same peak. In any case modern three-phase motors don't have the same trade-off between maximum speed and acceleration that DC motored units had, and financing is probably easier for a unit that could be transferred to a 100mph service later in its life.

Raising the linespeed has been looked at a number times over the years and the benefits aren't really there as the journey time improvements, (as so few services miss out many stops these days), are limited, the OLE was only designed for 75mph and would have to be upgraded for higher speeds and so might the signalling?

The capacity of the new stock is interesting (over 900 quoted in the press release) which as these appear to be clones of the GA 10 car Aventras suggests the seating capacity of the GA units at 1150 as being very cosy!

 

[wls1]

the OLE was only designed for 75mph and would have to be upgraded for higher speeds and so might the signalling?

The signalling has already been redone in prime areas around Upminster, Barking and West Ham. Its partly down to the increased stops that trains make but is mostly due to the fact that the line is pretty much at 100% capacity, with 1 train each way every three minutes. The ole hasn't been touched apart from routine engineering work. It could definitely happen in the future.

 

[xc170]

So that'll mean even more modern EMU's off lease then when these arrive...

 

[absolutelymilk]

So that'll mean even more modern EMU's off lease then when these arrive...

Why? The impression I got was that these would supplement rather than replace the 357s, especially as the 387s are going off-lease when they arrive (or are you referring to the 387s?)

 

[swt_passenger]

Does the transfer of some services to Crossrail and the abandonment of branch electrifications leave GWR with too many 387s?

This has all been covered before in the 387 thread, but in the broadest of terms the overall numbers of commuter EMUs going to GWR had already been reduced since the 2015 franchise announcement. (58 >> 45.) As 47802 has mentioned above there are also increases in the number of 802s. I suspect the reduction in pure EMUs already accounted for the likely Crossrail extras - negotiations were probably going on well before TfL published their recent proposals. Also, the branches have not been officially 'abandoned' but deferred into CP6. EMUs will be needed for Oxford and Newbury services, and off-peak Reading to Paddington services, and there is every likelihood a number of 12 car trains will be operating from Didcot and crossing slow to fast at some point east of Reading.

I think 'spare 387' availability from GWR is highly unlikely, all considered.

 

[Wivenswold]

So that'll mean even more modern EMU's off lease then when these arrive...

Well, 6 x 387s but that was always the plan. I can't see them struggling to find new homes at all. No plans as yet to replace any of the Electrostars but they're approaching the final third of their intended life, so I'd expect Aventras to slowly take over during the 20's.

The timing won't be great, all of the 2019 releases from GA will be non-DDA compliant as far as I know. The Renatus 321 units along with the 360s and 379s are not off lease until later in 2020.

C2C could concentrate some 315s or Mk 3 EMUs on shorter peak services meaning the locked-out or lack of toilets won't be such a problem. Not ideal but with the promise of brand new trains on the way, most commuters would probably put up with a bit of retro travel for a year or two.

 

[Domh245]

The timing won't be great, all of the 2019 releases from GA will be non-DDA compliant as far as I know. The Renatus 321 units along with the 360s and 379s are not off lease until later in 2020.

The GA franchise agreement says the 30 renatus units come off lease on the 1/12/2019, so unless something has changed they'd be available at the right sort of time that the press release implies.

 

[xc170]

Why? The impression I got was that these would supplement rather than replace the 357s, especially as the 387s are going off-lease when they arrive (or are you referring to the 387s?)

My bad, I thought this order was meant as a replacement for the current fleet of 357s.

 

[MatthewRead]

Another interesting part of their press release.

'Last year c2c introduced 24 new carriages on a short-term contract, and these units will now be extended until the arrival of the new fleet. c2c also remains in discussions for leasing additional carriages from December 2019 until the new trains arrive 18 months later, with an update expected next year.'

So they're extending the lease of the 387s and looking at additional carriages between 2019 & 2021.

Will this mean the 387's get off peak/weekend diagrams?

 

[MatthewRead]

Well, 6 x 387s but that was always the plan. I can't see them struggling to find new homes at all. No plans as yet to replace any of the Electrostars but they're approaching the final third of their intended life, so I'd expect Aventras to slowly take over during the 20's.

The timing won't be great, all of the 2019 releases from GA will be non-DDA compliant as far as I know. The Renatus 321 units along with the 360s and 379s are not off lease until later in 2020.

C2C could concentrate some 315s or Mk 3 EMUs on shorter peak services meaning the locked-out or lack of toilets won't be such a problem. Not ideal but with the promise of brand new trains on the way, most commuters would probably put up with a bit of retro travel for a year or two.

Your starting to sound like Andrew Gwilt saying 315's and 90/MK3's could be used by C2C

 

[D365]

Your starting to sound like Andrew Gwilt saying 315's and 90/MK3's could be used by C2C

On the Marks Tey-Sudbury line.

 

[Wivenswold]

The GA franchise agreement says the 30 renatus units come off lease on the 1/12/2019, so unless something has changed they'd be available at the right sort of time that the press release implies.

There are strong rumours that the Renatus units are staying on lease with GA into 2020 as the 10 car Aventras (which in effect replace 60+ EMUS) are due to be delivered at the end of 2019 and early 2020. The 360s and 379s are being retained in case the Stadler 12 cars aren't cleared in time for the 2020 deadline when the MK3 rakes will have to be withdrawn. If all goes well, then yes, the Renatus units will be surplus. If it doesn't then C2C will have to resort to Plan B.

 

[MatthewRead]

On the Marks Tey-Sudbury line.

But that's not electric

 

[edwin_m]

Has anyone suggested 442s yet?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Think there would be riots if they tried to introduce those.

Plus would they be able to match the 357/387 timings?

Don't know about the timings, but the TfL Rail 315s are nicely done out at present and I'm sure if passengers were told they were there to cover only until new trains arrived, they wouldn't be upset.

 

[387star]

Rust on the bottom of seats is quite apparent on 377s. . The grey coating isn't very effective ? Not to mention the coating showing many signs of peeling off on tray tables and sides of seats

The seat grabs get worn top again with the coating chipping away

Not aware of such issues on Siemens although they use plastic or rubber fittings ?

 

[Wivenswold]

Has anyone suggested 442s yet?

No, everyone knows they're earmarked for the Isle of Wight line.

 

[physics34]

Rust on the bottom of seats is quite apparent on 377s. . The grey coating isn't very effective ? Not to mention the coating showing many signs of peeling off on tray tables and sides of seats

The seat grabs get worn top again with the coating chipping away

Not aware of such issues on Siemens although they use plastic or rubber fittings ?

saw a piece recently that the yellow grab handles with be getting a different more durable coating next time around..... 377/3s are getting what seems to be another patch up mini-refresh at the moment.