Exactly - the only 100% guaranteed way not to have children is not to have intercourse. Sorry to break the bad news, but the processes of life are "on the go" from at least the point of an embryo successfully implanting into the womb lining. The worst thing is that anyone who performs an abortion knows this (unless there are some serious gaps in their medical knowledge).
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General Election 2017: The Results and Aftermath
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Exactly - the only 100% guaranteed way not to have children is not to have intercourse. Sorry to break the bad news, but the processes of life are "on the go" from at least the point of an embryo successfully implanting into the womb lining. The worst thing is that anyone who performs an abortion knows this (unless there are some serious gaps in their medical knowledge).
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What was the financial method of transfer used for the transfer of the bribe that you say was authorised by the current leader of the Conservative Party into the funds of the Democratic Unionist Party. Was the bribe that you allude to a matter that can be investigated by the relevant authorities under the terms of the Bribery Act 2010.
Probably not; after all it is technically a sweetener (additional/"bonus" payment to the principal) rather than a bribe in a legal context (payment to an agent, to act against the principal's interests).
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I prefer backhander or bung.
Whatever it is called it stinks. £1bn found down the back of the sofa for enhanced spending in Northern Island to keep the PM in power ( because she ballsed up the election) but no pay rises for the public sector as the magic money tree doesn't exist.
Even Paul knows it is wrong.
berneyarms
Established Member
But it's the reality of coalition governments or confidence & supply agreements all over Europe - the minority party gets a payback for supporting the majority party, either in financial or in policy terms (or both!) - it just becomes more of an issue for some when the minority party represents a region of the country rather the entire nation.
I guess that the fact that the UK election system normally returns a majority government means that people just find the inevitable horse trading that goes on completely bizarre.
For those of us with proportional representational systems, this is the norm.
I'm not saying that it's necessarily right, but it's a political reality of the spread of the seats that each party got.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
You may very well think that, but I couldn't possibly comment..
However, I agree with your first sentence above. It annoys me to see people using terminology such as the word "bribe" without giving any thought to the actuality of that word as stated in the Bribery Act 2010.
Incidentally, how large would a sofa have to be to accommodate the sum of £1bn in its interior recesses...
I'm quite sure they know that. Can't see the point you're trying to make though.
Incidentally, how large would a sofa have to be to accommodate the sum of £1bn in its interior recesses...
You could fit it in an average wallet: you only need ten banknotes.
More fool the SNP and Plaid Cymru.
Can we really believe that, if the numbers had stacked up differently, Corbyn's Labour wouldn't have rushed to do a deal with the SNP and Plaid Cymru "to keep the Tories out", and that that deal wouldn't have involved massive payments of mainly English taxpayers' money to Scotland and Wales in exchange for the minor parties' votes?
As for the abortion business, isn't there something wrong when with an NHS that is devolved to the four components of the UK the English NHS is apparently to pick up the bill for Northern Ireland abortions? A bit more of a stinking arrangements with the DUP.
But they're politicians -- they all work the same way, and it's wrong to be surprised when we see it happening.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
How differently? If Labour finish up as the biggest party it's likely that one or both of the below would apply
1. The Lib Dems will have regained a number of seats from the Conservatives
2. Labour have regained a number of seats in Scottish.
Meaning the SNP wouldn't be the first point of call. Plaid Cymru don't have that many seats so wouldn't be as powerful as the DUP in such talks.
I don't recall the SNP or Plain Cymru having the endorsement of three banned terror groups of having them canvass for them though.
As someone who firmly believes that the six counties' statelet should never have been created, I have neither liking nor sympathy for either the DUP or their Official Unionist brethren. But we are looking at practical and pragmatic politics, where the desire for power overcomes all else, and so it is no surprise at all that the Tories should have got into bed with a party that behaves/is supported in the way you mention. I simply have not the slightest doubt that if Sinn Fein took their Westminster seats Labour (especially under Corbyn) would happily talk to them if it needed to make an arrangement to get their votes. That's the way politicians operate -- it's power, and the possible route to power, that matters. Look at the way Labour is now busily politicising Grenfell because that provides a means of further discrediting the Tories (as it seems to them).
Grenfell was a massive tragedy where likely over a hundred people were killed, caused by structural changes made by public sector bodies to the homes of hundreds of thousands of people. If that isn't political then what the hell is? You can probably make the case that governments and councils of all parties were involved, and you could try to make the case that all were equally culpable, but suggesting that it wasn't political is just insane.
berneyarms
Established Member
As I pointed the plain fact is that the UK electorate is just not used to hung parliaments, due to the quirks of the electoral system, unlike much of Europe, which have to deal with them after most elections.
That means doing deals with other parties, which will result in a programme for government that usually sees the majority party having to dilute its manifesto commitments, and the minority party/parties getting financial/policy paybacks.
The real issue for most people is that the UK parliament has parties that are confined to pariticular regions and when the maths require it, deals will be struck with one or more of those parties that are willing to support the majority party. That will always mean those areas getting more financial benefit than others.
For all the people giving out about it, they fail to recognise that those MPs from smaller parties from the regions have as much right to be in parliament and potentially in givernment as anyone else - that's democracy for you.
While I would have serious misgivings about much of the DUP's policies and attitudes, the fact is that the UK is still a parliamentary democracy.
When you've a hung parliament, doing deals is a fact of life, whether we like it or not, and the minority parties will always extract as much as they can in return for their support.
That means doing deals with other parties, which will result in a programme for government that usually sees the majority party having to dilute its manifesto commitments, and the minority party/parties getting financial/policy paybacks.
The real issue for most people is that the UK parliament has parties that are confined to pariticular regions and when the maths require it, deals will be struck with one or more of those parties that are willing to support the majority party. That will always mean those areas getting more financial benefit than others.
For all the people giving out about it, they fail to recognise that those MPs from smaller parties from the regions have as much right to be in parliament and potentially in givernment as anyone else - that's democracy for you.
While I would have serious misgivings about much of the DUP's policies and attitudes, the fact is that the UK is still a parliamentary democracy.
When you've a hung parliament, doing deals is a fact of life, whether we like it or not, and the minority parties will always extract as much as they can in return for their support.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
and what supporters of the Tory party seem keen to overlook is that there is no magic money tree to give public sector workers a pay rise but the same non existent magic money tree has managed to provide a bumber £1bn harvest to keep the DUP sweet.
THAT is the issue and it stinks.
THAT is the issue and it stinks.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Since we are discussing Sterling as the currency in question, what are the normally available ten Bank of England currency notes which are available to the general public to the total value of £1bn, that would fit in an average wallet?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
As ever, I am indebted to you for such information, as I was only aware of a 1% rise cap, so the stated "no public sector pay rises" at all is certainly one current news item that found its way under my political radar.
berneyarms
Established Member
That's the politics of hung parliaments.
Look at any country in Europe that has had them and you'll see similar situations.
It's just that people in the U.K. aren't used to them.
They aren't in circulation, but the £100m note does exist, it's called the 'Titan'.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
This is the same Tory party who tried to blame Gordon Brown for a recession and then blamed 'global factors outside of their control' for failing to reduce the deficit. Both parties try to put blame on the governing party for anything that goes wrong when they are opposition and on something outside the control of the governing party when they are in government.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
But I think the particular issue is that the Conservatives have spent years insisting that there is no money, and actually causing real hardship to many people, as well as harm to the economy because of their ideological attachment to austerity, continually backed by their claims that there is (supposedly) no money for the Government to spend. This deal has rather brutally exposed that for the falsehood that it always was, as well as highlighting the hypocrisy of the Conservative leadership. It demonstrates that clearly there is money available - and by implication, there always was the money available. Presumably, it's just that the Conservatives (apparently) didn't see paying nurses and firemen etc. properly as important enough.
If the Conservatives hadn't spent all those years using 'no money tree' as an excuse to deny so many people a reasonable life, then their actions in spending £1bn+ to bribe the DUP would not have looked so hypocritical (although it would have still looked unfair to the rest of the country).
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Precisely!
NSEFAN
Established Member
Perhaps "using the disaster to score political points" is more accurate?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The Government have stated that they should listen to the Pay Review Bodies but it doesn't mean they have to respect their findings but apparently with one exception. A couple of years ago, the MPs Review Body recommended an 11% (if I remember correctly) and a number of MPs were saying that with the Public Sector pay cap this was over the top and not right to accept it. However, in the same breath almost, they were saying that the findings of the Review Body should be respected
Germany too has one party that is purely regional, and that is the CSU in Bavaria - a federal state that still seems sometimes not to be totally at ease with the 1870 union. And note how over many years the CSU has been involved in government with one or other of the two major parties. And Italy has its regional party of the north. And what about Belgium and Spain? Are we unusual in that strong nationalism in Scotland and Wales and traces of an emerging regionalism in England have begun to appear only relative recently?
I agree - and the condemnation would be unequiovical.
I've said it before but this year I'm really fed up of politics and democracy, and I'm increasingly concerned that the system of democracy we have is fundamentally not a good form of governance.
berneyarms
Established Member
No - it's just that the electoral system in the U.K. (first past the post) has tended more often than not to return a majority government most of the time, and consequently the other regional parties tend to be more "out of sight, out of mind" for most people.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
A 1% pay rise is a real terms pay cut hence no pay rise.
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