Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

I've not seen any of these new tables in the down position (in photos, as I've not seen any in the flesh at all yet) and wonder if they have any sort of indent to hold a bottle/cup?

I wonder if the DfT will be vindicated one day should people start to leave stuff on them, which in turns makes it harder for people to get in and out of their window seat, which delays the 40-odd second dispatching target in the core.

My view exactly. Maybe they'll only fit a few sets out and if they do, as suggested, prove the theory of wasting dwell time, they can then remove them and tell complaining passengers why. Looks like another bright idea by a lobby/pressure group proving to be a self-serving waste of cash, making an intense service more difficult to operate, (last one being running Sutton loop services through the core instead of turning at BFR because some MP wanted to look good).

 

[physics34]

My view exactly. Maybe they'll only fit a few sets out and if they do, as suggested, prove the theory of wasting dwell time, they can then remove them and tell complaining passengers why. Looks like another bright idea by a lobby/pressure group proving to be a self-serving waste of cash, making an intense service more difficult to operate, (last one being running Sutton loop services through the core instead of turning at BFR because some MP wanted to look good).

quite a cynical and negative view. I doubt this will be THAT much of a problem.

when someone gets up from their seat they will have to lift the table up, thus taking whatever is on the table with them, except maybe an empty bag of crisps or a newspaper.

 

[AM9]

quite a cynical and negative view. I doubt this will be THAT much of a problem.

when someone gets up from their seat they will have to lift the table up, thus taking whatever is on the table with them, except maybe an empty bag of crisps or a newspaper.

So the table will be a gathering point for passenger detritis. It will be left to those travelling further to clear up the mess of those too selfish to remove their own rubbish.
The table will become a sticky mess, not cleaned again until the train is next serviced. None of this is necessary on an outer suburban commuter train. At least the class 700s currently only get cluttered up with Metros and Evening Standards. Just encouraging drinks and food for such short journeys will make them as grubby as the Electrostars were.

 

[physics34]

So the table will be a gathering point for passenger detritis. It will be left to those travelling further to clear up the mess of those too selfish to remove their own rubbish.
The table will become a sticky mess, not cleaned again until the train is next serviced. None of this is necessary on an outer suburban commuter train. At least the class 700s currently only get cluttered up with Metros and Evening Standards. Just encouraging drinks and food for such short journeys will make them as grubby as the Electrostars were.

weve had discussions similar to this in the past...why do you want a totally basic train without any passenger comforts? Passengers will have to take some of the rubbish with them because they have to lift up the table to get out of the seat anyway.

Lets not have tables because they might get a bit messy? How about not having seat covers because they will get dusty too.!

Its up to the TOC to organise cleaners. The tables will be useful to many. Some journeys will be over 1hr and a half.....nothing wrong with the odd passenger comfort.

..and besides....leaving cups on the floor with the potential to be knocked over could be an even bigger mess.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if they could have just had cup holders (like many coaches have, albeit in addition to a table) or just put the tip down tables on the window seats?

 

[bramling]

So the table will be a gathering point for passenger detritis. It will be left to those travelling further to clear up the mess of those too selfish to remove their own rubbish.
The table will become a sticky mess, not cleaned again until the train is next serviced. None of this is necessary on an outer suburban commuter train. At least the class 700s currently only get cluttered up with Metros and Evening Standards. Just encouraging drinks and food for such short journeys will make them as grubby as the Electrostars were.

Funny I've been using 365s since they were built and have rarely if ever encountered tables getting into the state you describe. In fact, it's better to have things left on the table where they can easily be reached by cleaners than on the floor or, worse, stuffed down the side of seats or in other semi-accessible locations.

 

[bramling]

weve had discussions similar to this in the past...why do you want a totally basic train without any passenger comforts? Passengers will have to take some of the rubbish with them because they have to lift up the table to get out of the seat anyway.

Lets not have tables because they might get a bit messy? How about not having seat covers because they will get dusty too.!

Its up to the TOC to organise cleaners. The tables will be useful to many. Some journeys will be over 1hr and a half.....nothing wrong with the odd passenger comfort.

..and besides....leaving cups on the floor with the potential to be knocked over could be an even bigger mess.

We've already established elsewhere that AM9 makes use of the declassified first-class section where possible when using 700s... Says it all really.

 

[bramling]

Just what I needed, less legroom...

Oh dear. Other trains manage to provide seat-back tables *and* adequate legroom. So comes back to the 700s being inferior and inadequate - which we knew anyway.

 

[Hadders]

So the table will be a gathering point for passenger detritis. It will be left to those travelling further to clear up the mess of those too selfish to remove their own rubbish.
The table will become a sticky mess, not cleaned again until the train is next serviced. None of this is necessary on an outer suburban commuter train. At least the class 700s currently only get cluttered up with Metros and Evening Standards. Just encouraging drinks and food for such short journeys will make them as grubby as the Electrostars were.

The alternative will be rubbish left on seats, coffee cups at more risk of having their contents spilt over the floor and seats.

Given that many outer-suburban journeys made by class 700 trains are over an hour in length I think the provision of table back seats is necessary.

 

[AM9]

The alternative will be rubbish left on seats, coffee cups at more risk of having their contents spilt over the floor and seats.

Given that many outer-suburban journeys made by class 700 trains are over an hour in length I think the provision of table back seats is necessary.

Not really. Providing tables encourages some to take coffee onto crowded trains hwere they might not otherwise. Most of the mess on trains is down to passengers slovenly habits. Why encourage more of it.

 

[AM9]

Oh dear. Other trains manage to provide seat-back tables *and* adequate legroom. So comes back to the 700s being inferior and inadequate - which we knew anyway.

Yes, and on lines where peak loads are up to the full capacity of the route, some are left standing on stations just so that others get a slightly more comfortable journey. That isn't addressing a public transport 'need'.
I rarely travel on peak time trains but I'm quite happy to travel in trains that are designed to benefit the maximum number of travellers who do. It's always been that way with seats, - those who start their journey before the train fills up regard the space as their right even at the expense of others who cannot get on the trains at all.

 

[physics34]

Not really. Providing tables encourages some to take coffee onto crowded trains hwere they might not otherwise. Most of the mess on trains is down to passengers slovenly habits. Why encourage more of it.

i agree that passengers have a lot to answer for in regards to taking rubbish with them, feet on seats etc etc....that is a british societal issue.... just look at our town centres, but i dont think the rest of us who do put rubbish in the bin should suffer with less facilities like no tables. Put the fares up and get more cleaners.

(my mind has changed on a lot of railway matters since a recent trip to switzerland..put local fares UP for a better service, but reward season ticket holders and lower long distance fares.)

 

[AM9]

... Passengers will have to take some of the rubbish with them because they have to lift up the table to get out of the seat anyway.

Some do, many see their rubbis as the railway's problem. It's not much better than a fly-tipper.

Lets not have tables because they might get a bit messy? How about not having seat covers because they will get dusty too.!

On equivalent services in many European countries, that is the case. It probably won't happen here as the tabloids will have a feast on it. But look at the class 378 seats. They have no padding, - just a single cloth cover.

Its up to the TOC to organise cleaners. The tables will be useful to many. Some journeys will be over 1hr and a half.....nothing wrong with the odd passenger comfort.

Some journeys maybe, but why make that at the expense of those making shorter journeys having to not even get on the train?

..and besides....leaving cups on the floor with the potential to be knocked over could be an even bigger mess.

As I've said elsewhere, table encourage some passengers to bring drinks on board so effectively they make the problem worse.

 

[AM9]

i agree that passengers have a lot to answer for in regards to taking rubbish with them, feet on seats etc etc....that is a british societal issue.... just look at our town centres, but i dont think the rest of us who do put rubbish in the bin should suffer with less facilities like no tables. Put the fares up and get more cleaners.

(my mind has changed on a lot of railway matters since a recent trip to switzerland..put local fares UP for a better service, but reward season ticket holders and lower long distance fares.)

Season ticket holders are very well rewarded in the UK compared with other travellers. The average anytime season ticket journey is cheaper than an off-peak ticket, despite the fact that most suburban railway infrastructure and rolling stock investment and running costs are only there because of peak demand. So season ticket holders occupying space in the peak get privileges at way below the costs of providing them.

 

[AM9]

We've already established elsewhere that AM9 makes use of the declassified first-class section where possible when using 700s... Says it all really.

If it's available and I have the time to walk to the end of the train and back again, I'll take it but there's no problem travelling in the standard class seats. They are comfortable enough given the ride quality of the trains.
Where very high capacity is needed for four hours per day heavy commuter use, it looks like this design philosophy will become the norm. That's OK by me and many other class 700 travellers I know who use them, so other passengers have a choice, use other modes, or learn to like them.

 

[TheDavibob]

Given that many outer-suburban journeys made by class 700 trains are over an hour in length I think the provision of table back seats is necessary.

Quite. There is no need for tables in the core (heck, there is barely need for *seats* in the core) but if I'm travelling (off-peak, or at least not high-peak) from Cambridge or Brighton, lack of tables is a real turn-off.

For example, if I were going to Gatwick from Cambridge (a perfectly reasonable trip and one I probably will do), lack of table-back seats is a very genuine reason for me to take an alternative route (with a double cross-London change - quicker anyway, but changing is a faff).

And what is the "choice" somebody day-tripping to London from, eg. Royston will have? It's 700s all the way.

[N.B. I'm rather fond of 700s and have no major problem with their comfort, just not convinced by some of the arguments being made here.]

 

[bramling]

Not really. Providing tables encourages some to take coffee onto crowded trains hwere they might not otherwise. Most of the mess on trains is down to passengers slovenly habits. Why encourage more of it.

Do you have any evidence that the knowledge that the train will or won't have a table has any bearing on whether someone decides to purchase coffee or whatever? Surely it has more to do with the availability of retail outlets on or near the station.

Until recently we had some services worked by 317s without tables, and sometimes these could turn up instead of a booked 365. Definitely more stains and mess in the floors of the 317s - on the 365s normally the worst thing to happen was a neat pile of empty cups cans or bottles laid out on the table ready for the cleaners to collect.

Sorry but real-life experience seems to suggest you're completely wrong on this.

 

[bramling]

Season ticket holders are very well rewarded in the UK compared with other travellers. The average anytime season ticket journey is cheaper than an off-peak ticket, despite the fact that most suburban railway infrastructure and rolling stock investment and running costs are only there because of peak demand. So season ticket holders occupying space in the peak get privileges at way below the costs of providing them.

Until such time as the season user doesn't travel every day.

Apart from a few leisure days out, I don't think I've used my season in the morning peak at all this year, plus once I knock out four weeks leave in June and September, and two weeks in May and July plus other time off it probably adds up to about 15 or more weeks when I've not used it at all. I doubt I'm paying less than the comparable day ticket.

You may well be right for the stereotypical 9 to 5 worker, but many do not fit into this at all.

 

[theageofthetra]

Another 700 broken down in the core at the moment.

 

[Stew998]

The main issue with disposing of rubbish in my experience is that bins are too small and too few.

Many passengers bring drinks aboard - it's a fact and should be catered for (the railway seems happy enough to accept rent from coffee franchises on stations after all!) Many journeys will be an hour plus and this Just seems to have been ignored. Passengers should apparently be grateful to be transported however the railway/dft sees fit...

 

[AM9]

Do you have any evidence that the knowledge that the train will or won't have a table has any bearing on whether someone decides to purchase coffee or whatever? Surely it has more to do with the availability of retail outlets on or near the station.

Until recently we had some services worked by 317s without tables, and sometimes these could turn up instead of a booked 365. Definitely more stains and mess in the floors of the 317s - on the 365s normally the worst thing to happen was a neat pile of empty cups cans or bottles laid out on the table ready for the cleaners to collect.

Sorry but real-life experience seems to suggest you're completely wrong on this.

Maybe just my real-life experience is different to yours.

 

[bramling]

Maybe just my real-life experience is different to yours.

Well, perhaps Thameslink users are just less civilised than GN's. Anything's possible I suppose.

I've seen some pretty filthy regional trains, worst I've seen probably being a CT 170 arriving at Skegness. But commuter trains simply aren't an issue in my experience, apart from the late-night vomit comets. It's *very* rare to find a 365 in a disgusting state - the one I just travelled to London in was immaculate, and this is a typical experience.

 

[AM9]

Quite. There is no need for tables in the core (heck, there is barely need for *seats* in the core) but if I'm travelling (off-peak, or at least not high-peak) from Cambridge or Brighton, lack of tables is a real turn-off.

For example, if I were going to Gatwick from Cambridge (a perfectly reasonable trip and one I probably will do), lack of table-back seats is a very genuine reason for me to take an alternative route (with a double cross-London change - quicker anyway, but changing is a faff).

Given that a significant proportion of all journeys between Gatwick Airport and TL north stations would be after flying, presumably with luggage, I would suspect your enthusiasm for tables overriding the inconvenience and sheer effort of carrying luggage up and down multiple staircases would be amongst a minority of passengers' preference.

 

[jon0844]

Well, perhaps Thameslink users are just less civilised than GN's. Anything's possible I suppose.

I've seen some pretty filthy regional trains, worst I've seen probably being a CT 170 arriving at Skegness. But commuter trains simply aren't an issue in my experience, apart from the late-night vomit comets. It's *very* rare to find a 365 in a disgusting state - the one I just travelled to London in was immaculate, and this is a typical experience.

Some late night services heading back into London after taking people out can be absolutely disgusting. The only good news is that there aren't many of them!

Churchill does a very good job clearing trains at King's Cross but it would seem many trains coming back to finish at KGX from Cambridge, Peterborough, Royston etc don't get the same treatment. I'm sure a lot of the rubbish was deposited by passengers leaving London between 9-11pm.

 

[bramling]

Some late night services heading back into London after taking people out can be absolutely disgusting. The only good news is that there aren't many of them!

Churchill does a very good job clearing trains at King's Cross but it would seem many trains coming back to finish at KGX from Cambridge, Peterborough, Royston etc don't get the same treatment. I'm sure a lot of the rubbish was deposited by passengers leaving London between 9-11pm.

I suppose a Thameslink train will get cleaned on average half as often as a GN train simply due to the trip lengths being roughly doubled. Since certain people have such an issue with rubbish on trains, looks like we've identified yet another another disbenefit of Thameslink...

 

[Hadders]

Well, perhaps Thameslink users are just less civilised than GN's. Anything's possible I suppose.

I've seen some pretty filthy regional trains, worst I've seen probably being a CT 170 arriving at Skegness. But commuter trains simply aren't an issue in my experience, apart from the late-night vomit comets. It's *very* rare to find a 365 in a disgusting state - the one I just travelled to London in was immaculate, and this is a typical experience.

I agree that the 365s are generally pretty well kept.

I suppose a Thameslink train will get cleaned on average half as often as a GN train simply due to the trip lengths being roughly doubled. Since certain people have such an issue with rubbish on trains, looks like we've identified yet another another disbenefit of Thameslink...

No doubt we'll have to level down to Thameslink standards...

 

[bramling]

I agree that the 365s are generally pretty well kept.



No doubt we'll have to level down to Thameslink standards...

Unreliable, uncomfortable and dirty - sums Thameslink up pretty concisely.

Shortly off to make my way to a 365, must make sure I don't touch those dirty tables! In all seriousness, I should place a little wager that it will be somewhere between clean and immaculate.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh dear. Other trains manage to provide seat-back tables *and* adequate legroom. So comes back to the 700s being inferior and inadequate - which we knew anyway.

Not on the TL line.

319s - I couldn't use most airline seats (no tables)
377s - I couldn't use most airline seats (with tables)
700s - I can use most airline seats (no tables).

Also, I never use the seat back tables. I appreciate that other people do, however when it was a 377 railway, I rarely saw people use them, peak or off peak.

Therefore, in my opinion (and opinion is what this forum is for) the 700s without tables are the best option.

 

[bramling]

Not on the TL line.

319s - I couldn't use most airline seats (no tables)
377s - I couldn't use most airline seats (with tables)
700s - I can use most airline seats (no tables).

Also, I never use the seat back tables. I appreciate that other people do, however when it was a 377 railway, I rarely saw people use them, peak or off peak.

Therefore, in my opinion (and opinion is what this forum is for) the 700s without tables are the best option.

How about putting tables on half of the seats? Surely that then achieves the best of both worlds. The 365 sort of does this with the half tables on the facing seats, which I can't imagine hinder dwell times at all.

There are lots of things which could have been done with the 700s but weren't. Bad specification is what we keep coming back to.

 

[bramling]

Maybe just my real-life experience is different to yours.

Here I am on 365506, no cleaner been through, interior is perfect. Nothing but a couple of newspapers, tables clean and not stained, about 40% of the seat back tables folded down. Floor is quite dirty though, mainly chewing gum remains.

Am I in the real world?