Lewes Bonfire 04/11/2017

[Antman]

Theere's more and more serious arrests each year at Glastonbury than Notting Hill; there's a reason you mainly here reports about the arrests at Notting Hill though of course.

Regardless of all this, it's abundantly clear that this is not exactly a railway issue- the railway are simply reacting to what they've been asked to do by the police, by the local council, by the bonfire societies. For a railway issues discussion forum isn't that the end of it?

This has rather moved away from anything railway related. Southern obviously have little option but to comply with what has been asked of them.

 

[BestWestern]

This has rather moved away from anything railway related. Southern obviously have little option but to comply with what has been asked of them.

Indeed. Presumably if they didn't and an incident occurred around the station, they'd be wide open to legal action for a start.

 

[Robertj21a]

80 injuries were reported, minor or otherwise, make of that what you will.

The obvious comparison with the Notting Hill carnival is that it's an even that has become a victim of its own success and attracts large numbers of people to an area with narrow streets. Obviously if both events were held in an enclosed area they would be a lot safer, although there may be an admission charge.

I guess what most people would 'make of that' is just what was reported at the time - minor injuries. My understanding is that there are numerous 'minor injuries' just about everywhere on Bonfire night, it's only mentioned at all because the issue being reported was the volume of people at Lewes.

In any event, I'll leave you to it, it's obvious that you know far more than I ever will on the subject.....

 

[Antman]

I guess what most people would 'make of that' is just what was reported at the time - minor injuries. My understanding is that there are numerous 'minor injuries' just about everywhere on Bonfire night, it's only mentioned at all because the issue being reported was the volume of people at Lewes.

In any event, I'll leave you to it, it's obvious that you know far more than I ever will on the subject.....

As far as I'm aware most fireworks events have no injuries?

Anyway this is no longer railway related, I think we've established that none of this is the fault of Southern?

 

[Darandio]

Anyway this is no longer railway related, I think we've established that none of this is the fault of Southern?

I think that was established at the start, it's just that the OP refuses to accept it.

 

[Universediver]

I think that was established at the start, it's just that the OP refuses to accept it.

Just because the Police make a request to Southern they do not have to accept it. Here are some of my thoughts;

1. Reducing attendants at the Bonfire Processions reduces the numbers of Police that need to be in attendance (so saves £££'s).

2. Some residents in Lewes want the event banned? Are these the same people who have moved into Lewes from London etc. who want an old Sussex festival cancelled?

3. There has been many comments that you can walk from Southease etc. This and other stations are miles away from Lewes and how would my wife with limited movement make this walk?

4. As per the above, by Southern not providing the service they are paid to deliver they are effectively discriminating against the disabled as there is no way they can make it to the event.

5. Buses. Brighton & Hove Buses and other companies will be running services into the edge of Lewes and there is quite a walk from there to the centre of the town. Also as these will be the only public transport available they will be oversubscribed.

6. Someone said I was an outsider. I am not. My family are from Sussex and as mentioned I have been attending this event since being a child. I feel I have just the same right to attend as those who move into the town and try and change its history.

7. As previously mentioned, I have a official invitation from a leading citizen of the town, who I wont name. Tomorrow I will have to withdraw my acceptance of attending due to Southern.

8. Do you think a democratic country should act this way?

 

[Darandio]

So Southern are discriminating against the disabled by doing this and it's also undemocratic. Surely the leading citizen can send a car for you along with a police escort.

Are we playing outrage bingo here?

 

[Universediver]

So Southern are discriminating against the disabled by doing this and it's also undemocratic. Surely the leading citizen can send a car for you along with a police escort.

Are we playing outrage bingo here?

Well I suppose you do not have a disability and can walk the miles suggested?

 

[Darandio]

Well I suppose you do not have a disability and can walk the miles suggested?

It would probably be a struggle for me, but that is besides the point.

To suggest that because Southern are not running a service on police advice is somehow discriminating against the disabled is completely absurd.

 

[Universediver]

It would probably be a struggle for me, but that is besides the point.

To suggest that because Southern are not running a service on police advice is somehow discriminating against the disabled is completely absurd.

Obviously you are one of the many who do not know about discrimination. An abled body person can attend the event. A person with disability cannot. There are no structural reasons that a disabled could attend i.e. current building restrictions. The only reason is that a public transport provider is refusing to run the service they are obliged to (just quoting a police request does not wash).

Able person = can attend

Disabled person with movement restrictions = cannot attend

Discrimination!

 

[Darandio]

Obviously you are one of the many who do not know about discrimination. An abled body person can attend the event. A person with disability cannot. There are no structural reasons that a disabled could attend i.e. current building restrictions. The only reason is that a public transport provider is refusing to run the service they are obliged to (just quoting a police request does not wash).

Able person = can attend

Disabled person with movement restrictions = cannot attend

Discrimination!

This really is just a rant against Southern, isn't it.

The police are telling people to stay away, this includes you. East Sussex Fire and Rescue Service and Lewes District Council are saying exactly the same thing. They are closing roads to try and stop people getting in.

So working on your logic, surely the police, fire service and the council are discriminating as well? Or is it still just Southern?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to point out that Southern aren't discriminating against anyone - *no-one* will be going to Lewes by train.

 

[Andyjs247]

I would suggest complaints need to be directed to Sussex Police, the Police and Crime Commissioner and local councillors. If you don’t like the decisions the latter two make, don’t vote for them next time. Simples.

I’m no fan of Southern but I can’t really see that they can go against Police advice.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just because the Police make a request to Southern they do not have to accept it. Here are some of my thoughts;

If the Police request you to do something, or even ORDER you to do it, than by refusing you are are disobeying the instruction of a Constable, and guess where that can lead you?

1. Reducing attendants at the Bonfire Processions reduces the numbers of Police that need to be in attendance (so saves £££'s).

And?
Irrelevant point.

2. Some residents in Lewes want the event banned? Are these the same people who have moved into Lewes from London etc. who want an old Sussex festival cancelled?

If they are residents then they are quite entitled to their opinion, whether they moved in yesterday or their forebears were born there. As has been pointed out previously even the Societies have requested a reduction in the attendees.
Irrelevant point.

3. There has been many comments that you can walk from Southease etc. This and other stations are miles away from Lewes and how would my wife with limited movement make this walk?

Well done, now you raise the "disabled" ticket!!
Is she registered disabled or are you making an excuse?

4. As per the above, by Southern not providing the service they are paid to deliver they are effectively discriminating against the disabled as there is no way they can make it to the event.

Evidence please?

5. Buses. Brighton & Hove Buses and other companies will be running services into the edge of Lewes and there is quite a walk from there to the centre of the town. Also as these will be the only public transport available they will be oversubscribed.

So you have to get to the bus stop early!
Ever heard of "forward planning"?

6. Someone said I was an outsider. I am not. My family are from Sussex and as mentioned I have been attending this event since being a child. I feel I have just the same right to attend as those who move into the town and try and change its history.

So you are not a Lewes resident.
The fact that you have been attending since you were a child is of no consequence.
And the chip on your shoulder is now starting to show.

7. As previously mentioned, I have a official invitation from a leading citizen of the town, who I wont name. Tomorrow I will have to withdraw my acceptance of attending due to Southern.

If it so important to you and that other person then you could quite easily go the day before. You are using the railway as an excuse.
Chip ----------bigger now!

8. Do you think a democratic country should act this way?

And another irrelevant point!
The locals seem to have democratically decided that they don't want you, as a non-resident to be there.
Perhaps you need to look at the list of organisations that have requested this again.

Let's be quite honest, if you really wanted to go you would have made a lot more effort than moaning on an internet forum, stating incorrect and inadequate facts numerous times.

Chip, shoulder, bigger.

 

[nw1]

Being a bit cheeky I can see one way of 'subverting' the system - if you are fit - would be to get the last available train (or one of them) into Lewes in the morning and then do a walk on the Downs until it gets dark - not exactly a major bind assuming the typical November rain, drizzle or fog hold off. Or get the train to somewhere like Hassocks and walk along the SDW - would make potentially a nice day out.

Main issue with this would be what would you do afterwards - can imagine hotels in Lewes are booked solid that night months in advance, and walking in a typical dark damp November night several miles to Brighton (where the nearest accommodation is, at a guess) wouldn't be exactly inviting.

Still if you plan ahead I guess you could do this.

A shame to impose the restrictions though, I visited Lewes bonfire in 2005 from Southampton and had a great time. Can see why they're doing them though if there are indeed safety issues. Wasn't dangerously overcrowded in 2005, and that was with the 5th as a Saturday - I guess publicity on social media is responsible for the rise in numbers?

Main issue is that people who actually live in Lewes and need to get about are being disadvantaged if they need to travel. Not sure how you'd solve it though: running a normal train service and ticketing the event on a first come, first served basis, with tickets available to anyone on the internet (I have a personal dislike of the whole 'locals' versus 'outsiders' thing) is another approach but I can imagine ticket barriers surrounding the town would cause queuing chaos.

Edit: ... though, if buses are indeed running to the edge of the town (as I've just read elsewhere), the whole thing is less of an issue than it sounds.

 

[Hadders]

I would suggest complaints need to be directed to Sussex Police, the Police and Crime Commissioner and local councillors. If you don’t like the decisions the latter two make, don’t vote for them next time. Simples.

I’m no fan of Southern but I can’t really see that they can go against Police advice.

This is correct way to proceed.

The Police advice may well be over the top but if GTR refuse to follow it then it could have serious consequences should an incident occur. I wouldn't want to be a railway manager having to stand up in court following a serious incident and explain why I refused to follow Police advice.

 

[Antman]

Obviously you are one of the many who do not know about discrimination. An abled body person can attend the event. A person with disability cannot. There are no structural reasons that a disabled could attend i.e. current building restrictions. The only reason is that a public transport provider is refusing to run the service they are obliged to (just quoting a police request does not wash).

Able person = can attend

Disabled person with movement restrictions = cannot attend

Discrimination!

So maybe the police should be on guard at Lewes station and only allow disabled people to alight there? This might be somewhat difficult to enforce but do you really think this event would be suitable for a disabled person anyway?

But anyway this has nothing to do with Southern, they can only follow police advice.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Last year, when the Lewes bonfire coincided with an RMT strike day, the half-hourly Brighton-Eastbourne service ran non-stop between Brighton and Berwick from about midday onwards. There was no service all day over the line between Haywards Heath and Lewes.

I seem to recall suggesting last year that the authorities would be delighted with the RMT strike as it gave them an excuse not to run trains to Lewes. Seems that having not run them last year due to the strike they now realise this solves one of the issues

 

[Hophead]

I seem to recall suggesting last year that the authorities would be delighted with the RMT strike as it gave them an excuse not to run trains to Lewes. Seems that having not run them last year due to the strike they now realise this solves one of the issues

This year, yes. With the event occurring on a Saturday, many people are able or willing to make the effort. Next year, the 5th will be on a Monday so you'd expect visitor numbers to be down, though the authorities will need to consider how to deal with commuters returning home. I daresay we'll be reconvening in 12 months or so when further outrage can be expressed.

 

[furnessvale]

If the Police request you to do something, or even ORDER you to do it, than by refusing you are are disobeying the instruction of a Constable, and guess where that can lead you?

As an ex bobby I am surprised you have written that. You must know just how limited the powers of a constable are to ORDER members of the public to do anything.

(Or by "ex bobby" are you referring to a former life as a signalman?)

 

[tsr]

As an ex bobby I am surprised you have written that. You must know just how limited the powers of a constable are to ORDER members of the public to do anything.

(Or by "ex bobby" are you referring to a former life as a signalman?)

ISTR he/she may mean "ex-signalman".

As for the railway disobeying police, given an authorised person acting on behalf of a railway can order somebody to do or not to do something on safety grounds, Southern can choose to order people exactly as needed in terms of the risk they have assessed. Railway Byelaw 12 is perfectly adequate for this.

If the police are asking them to do something unsafe by preventing people from travelling, I am sure Southern would decide to deal with that accordingly. I am very sure of this, because I know GTR/Southern have robustly challenged various police forces just over the last few weeks alone.

However... this is not necessarily the case!

Lewes Bonfire is exceedingly well-known in Southern circles for being an event which the local stations struggle with, so I would imagine they have had their hand forced by prior experiences. Suggestions from Sussex Police and / or the BTP may very well have helped swing the decision, but a lot would have been known anyway.

 

[physics34]

Not at all bizarre. I doubt you appreciate the enormous volumes they are trying to handle in what is a fairly small town. Safety needs to be paramount - and it's far more important than any business (which can't cope on the day anyway). However, just to counter some rather extreme comments above, the 80 injuries last year were described at the time as 'relatively minor' - it's quite absurd to compare it with anything like Notting Hill Carnival.

It will be interesting to see if the restrictions this year are sufficient to reduce numbers or whether something more draconian is still needed.

Fair enough. Ive been to Lewes a few times and realise it isnt very big. Yeh ive probably underestimated the amount of attendees

 

[Llanigraham]

As an ex bobby I am surprised you have written that. You must know just how limited the powers of a constable are to ORDER members of the public to do anything.

(Or by "ex bobby" are you referring to a former life as a signalman?)

Correct!

 

[nw1]

This year, yes. With the event occurring on a Saturday, many people are able or willing to make the effort. Next year, the 5th will be on a Monday so you'd expect visitor numbers to be down, though the authorities will need to consider how to deal with commuters returning home. I daresay we'll be reconvening in 12 months or so when further outrage can be expressed.

Does it not run on the nearest Saturday? I ask that as it's running on the 4th, not the 5th, this year.

If it is indeed a Monday next year, there's no way they can cancel trains then. But as you said I doubt you'd get many visitors on a Monday night anyhow.

 

[mpthomson]

Theere's more and more serious arrests each year at Glastonbury than Notting Hill; there's a reason you mainly here reports about the arrests at Notting Hill though of course.

That's factual nonsense. There were no stabbings or serious sexual assaults at Glastonbury this year, in fact I can't remember the last time there was a serious assault at Glastonbury.

A significant number of police officers and attendees were assaulted and/or stabbed at NH this year and a significant number of serious sexual assaults.

 

[IrishDave]

Does it not run on the nearest Saturday? I ask that as it's running on the 4th, not the 5th, this year.

If it is indeed a Monday next year, there's no way they can cancel trains then. But as you said I doubt you'd get many visitors on a Monday night anyhow.

It runs on the 5th every year except when the 5th falls on a Sunday (as it does this year), in which case it is moved to Saturday 4th. For example in 2015 it ran on the 5th, which was a Thursday (and numbers were even lower than expected because it was tipping it down with rain!).

 

[theageofthetra]

That's factual nonsense. There were no stabbings or serious sexual assaults at Glastonbury this year, in fact I can't remember the last time there was a serious assault at Glastonbury.

A significant number of police officers and attendees were assaulted and/or stabbed at NH this year and a significant number of serious sexual assaults.

Correct and the 'official' figures spouted by the likes of the Met PR dept & BBC are deliberately massaged to only include crime within the street closure area. Many of the most serious incidents occur on the way from/to it or at the various afterparties.

 

[Antman]

I have just read that Southern will not be running any services to Lewes and surrounding stations from midday onwards on the 04/11/2017.

This is the annual Bonfire night with many processions in the town and which brings ten of thousands of people. Apparently the Police do not want people coming into the town and so have asked Southern to implement this blanket ban for most of the day.

There will be no rail replacement buses so basically if you want to get in or out of Lewes you cannot use rail.

Does anyone know if it is legal to stop these services for over 12 hours?

Not only Lewes closing at midday, the same arrangements will apply at Glynde, Cooksbridge, Falmer, Moulscombe and London Road.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/172912.aspx

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is legal if the Police request it, as they have, yes.

 

[Holly]

... This is of course Health and Safety Gone Mad and the Nanny State interfering.

Well said. It is not necessary to suspend all service; set down restrictions for the period would have been sufficient.
But there are people in society who want everything to be either prohibited or compulsory.