EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[radamfi]

according to those spoken to at the port of Southampton, 95% of traffic they handle has nothing to do with the EU.. so all they can see is opportunity...

Why would EU traffic go through Southampton when there is a much shorter crossing at Dover or using the Channel Tunnel? Presumably Southampton is where container ships from the Far East arrive so you wouldn't expect it to be affected by Brexit.

A lot of what we produce here in Europe and in much of the developed world aren't bulky goods that needs transporting. For example software and financial services.

I think Switzerland was mentioned by one of the transport operators as an example...

Which is still effectively in the single market despite a recent referendum to restrict EU immigration. The government could have unilaterally taken Switzerland out of the single market in order to end freedom of movement in order to obey the referendum result, but instead went out of its way to meet the EU's requirements as much as they could get away with.

 

[D60]

Why would EU traffic go through Southampton when there is a much shorter crossing at Dover or using the Channel Tunnel? Presumably Southampton is where container ships from the Far East arrive so you wouldn't expect it to be affected by Brexit.

A lot of what we produce here in Europe and in much of the developed world aren't bulky goods that needs transporting. For example software and financial services.



Which is still effectively in the single market despite a recent referendum to restrict EU immigration. The government could have unilaterally taken Switzerland out of the single market in order to end freedom of movement in order to obey the referendum result, but instead went out of its way to meet the EU's requirements as much as they could get away with.

Ok, one more go, but I genuinely am getting quite bored here...
So.. and this is in reply to radamfi, Dave1987, and AndrewNewens...
Just a snapshot from 2013.. and mentioning Southampton.. and whether we make anything at all that anyone anywhere in the world and in the EU may want to buy from us.. and impacts on jobs, real, actual livelihoods and families...
So, 2013, Ford Southampton Transit plant, dependent on serving the EU market place, closes with the loss of around 600 jobs.. production transfered to an EU-funded plant in Turkey, not even in the EU, obvs,... So much for 'trade with the EU', and jobs...
Also in 2013, Honda Swindon, dependent on supplying the EU market, cuts shifts from 2 to 1 due to falling demand within the declining EU market.. resulting in the loss of around 600 jobs... So much for reliance on the EU market for jobs...
Also in 2013, JaguarLandRover recruit 600 new high-skill high-value jobs due to growth in export demand globally.. that's beyond the EU.. to the middle- and far-East and America.. exported through Southampton... So much for dependence on 'trade with the EU', with whom we have a massive trading deficit, and which is seriously loss-making as a whole for UK-plc's balance of payments, which has to be met from borrowing from the future... And they expect us to pay to be able to 'trade' with them, ie buy their goods off them...

I may pop back when the blatantly delusional europhile nonsense gets too much, but that's enough for now..
Have fun..!

 

[Dave1987]

Ok, one more go, but I genuinely am getting quite bored here...
So.. and this is in reply to radamfi, Dave1987, and AndrewNewens...
Just a snapshot from 2013.. and mentioning Southampton.. and whether we make anything at all that anyone anywhere in the world and in the EU may want to buy from us.. and impacts on jobs, real, actual livelihoods and families...
So, 2013, Ford Southampton Transit plant, dependent on serving the EU market place, closes with the loss of around 600 jobs.. production transfered to an EU-funded plant in Turkey, not even in the EU, obvs,... So much for 'trade with the EU', and jobs...
Also in 2013, Honda Swindon, dependent on supplying the EU market, cuts shifts from 2 to 1 due to falling demand within the declining EU market.. resulting in the loss of around 600 jobs... So much for reliance on the EU market for jobs...
Also in 2013, JaguarLandRover recruit 600 new high-skill high-value jobs due to growth in export demand globally.. that's beyond the EU.. to the middle- and far-East and America.. exported through Southampton... So much for dependence on 'trade with the EU', with whom we have a massive trading deficit, and which is seriously loss-making as a whole for UK-plc's balance of payments, which has to be met from borrowing from the future... And they expect us to pay to be able to 'trade' with them, ie buy their goods off them...

I may pop back when the blatantly delusional europhile nonsense gets too much, but that's enough for now..
Have fun..!

Well it’s funny how the Japanese that May was creeping up to recently have stated their investments in the UK are all based on access to the single market and that many Japanese firms already looking at new bases inside the single market for when we leave it. All the Governments of the world know that May and her Govt are desperate for trade deals post Brexit so will demand favourable terms for themselves. May wants to piggy back on the trade deal that the EU has just completed with Canada, but the deal for the UK will be no where near as good as the EU got because the UK market is a fraction of the size of the EU single market!! Never mind eh our relationship with the US has got off to a great start, talks of trade wars etc in response to Bombardier tariffs. Not exactly going great so far for May and that’s before the job losses in the city start mounting up!

 

[EM2]

I may pop back when the blatantly delusional europhobe nonsense gets too much, but that's enough for now..
Have fun..!

Edited that for you...

 

[SteveP29]

Well, funnily enough, I was just listening to The World at One on BBC R4 just before, and they were talking to port operators and their customers at both Southampton and Hull, discussing how they see the 'impact of Brexit'... So according to those spoken to at the port of Southampton, 95% of traffic they handle has nothing to do with the EU.. so all they can see is opportunity... And in Hull, rather more dependent on trade with the EU, they fully expect that frictionless trade with the EU will continue, with electronic checks on goods smoothing their customs transition.. I think Switzerland was mentioned by one of the transport operators as an example.

Ah Switzerland, famed for it's seaports

 

[fowler9]

Ah Switzerland, famed for it's seaports

To be fair not being a member of the EU has not caused any reduction in trade at its sea ports.

 

[EM2]

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)31926-8/fulltext

How will Brexit affect health and health services in the UK? Evaluating three possible scenarios.

The process of leaving the European Union (EU) will have profound consequences for health and the National Health Service (NHS) in the UK. In this paper, we use the WHO health system building blocks framework to assess the likely effects of three scenarios we term soft Brexit, hard Brexit, and failed Brexit. We conclude that each scenario poses substantial threats. The workforce of the NHS is heavily reliant on EU staff. Financing of health care for UK citizens in the EU and vice versa is threatened, as is access to some capital funds, while Brexit threatens overall economic performance. Access to pharmaceuticals, technology, blood, and organs for transplant is jeopardised. Information used for international comparisons is threatened, as is service delivery, especially in Northern Ireland. Governance concerns relate to public health, competition and trade law, and research. However, we identified a few potential opportunities for improvement in areas such as competition law and flexibility of training, should the UK Government take them. Overall, a soft version of Brexit would minimise health threats whereas failed Brexit would be the riskiest outcome. Effective parliamentary scrutiny of policy and legal changes will be essential, but the scale of the task risks overwhelming parliament and the civil service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah Switzerland, famed for it's seaports

Hey now the Royal Navy has visited Switzerland before now! It's not completely cut off from the sea!

 

[fowler9]

Any more comments about sea trade to Switzerland being a problem come Brexit? Ha ha.

 

[HSTEd]

A coastal freighter could probably reach Basel on the Rhine.....

 

[EM2]

Any more comments about sea trade to Switzerland being a problem come Brexit? Ha ha.

Everything is going to be a problem come Brexit.

 

[Wivenswold]

Most of the Insurers in London are setting up Headquarters out of the UK. My company has just registered in Dublin and is moving operations over there. There's widespread anger at the Government's handling of Brexit at board level in a number of big firms. The attitude seems to be; Hard Brexit will finish London as a financial powerhouse. Many will not mourn the end of prosperous times in the Capital but the effects will ripple out across the UK.

Time, in my opinion, to stop and go back to the country. No-one voted for Hard Brexit, though no-one really knew what they were voting for aside from the headline "In/Out" issue.

 

[fowler9]

Most of the Insurers in London are setting up Headquarters out of the UK. My company has just registered in Dublin and is moving operations over there. There's widespread anger at the Government's handling of Brexit at board level in a number of big firms. The attitude seems to be; Hard Brexit will finish London as a financial powerhouse. Many will not mourn the end of prosperous times in the Capital but the effects will ripple out across the UK.

Time, in my opinion, to stop and go back to the country. No-one voted for Hard Brexit, though no-one really knew what they were voting for aside from the headline "In/Out" issue.

Yeah, I was never a fan of how centralised the country was but if London goes, it all goes.

 

[47802]

Most of the Insurers in London are setting up Headquarters out of the UK. My company has just registered in Dublin and is moving operations over there. There's widespread anger at the Government's handling of Brexit at board level in a number of big firms. The attitude seems to be; Hard Brexit will finish London as a financial powerhouse. Many will not mourn the end of prosperous times in the Capital but the effects will ripple out across the UK.

Time, in my opinion, to stop and go back to the country. No-one voted for Hard Brexit, though no-one really knew what they were voting for aside from the headline "In/Out" issue.

Agreed and of course many Brexiters quoted such a Switzerland as our future relationship with Europe not Hard Brexit

 

[Howardh]

I've lost track of the countries Brexiters suggest as our future relationship. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, even Canada...? Personally I'd like the UK to be as close - if not closer - than the former three.
But whatever happens we are still likely to have to have EU laws/regs applied here - for example, if you manufacture something are you going to do that just for the UK market or will you do it so it conforms with EU regulations so your market is increased by 675m potential customers?
We will have to follow the EU and I find it bizarre that we won't have any say in formulating those laws, rules and regulations even though we can choose not to. Hobson's choice.

 

[HSTEd]

I've lost track of the countries Brexiters suggest as our future relationship. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, even Canada...? Personally I'd like the UK to be as close - if not closer - than the former three.
But whatever happens we are still likely to have to have EU laws/regs applied here - for example, if you manufacture something are you going to do that just for the UK market or will you do it so it conforms with EU regulations so your market is increased by 675m potential customers?
We will have to follow the EU and I find it bizarre that we won't have any say in formulating those laws, rules and regulations even though we can choose not to. Hobson's choice.

Well ideally you would make your goods to a superset of EU and UK regulations so you can use the same item in both markets.

But lets not be silly about it - there will be plenty of factories that would be happy to make for just the market of 60 million, because it will still swamp their production capacity.
Does it matter if you can only sell to 60 million and not 600 million people, if you can use all your plant equipment flat out for the former?

 

[AM9]

Well ideally you would make your goods to a superset of EU and UK regulations so you can use the same item in both markets.

But lets not be silly about it - there will be plenty of factories that would be happy to make for just the market of 60 million, because it will still swamp their production capacity.
Does it matter if you can only sell to 60 million and not 600 million people, if you can use all your plant equipment flat out for the former?

Well it's not quite like that. The '60 million' is the population of the only market likely to have any sales, - apart from such lucrative bazaars as:

• Anguilla.
• Bermuda.
• British Antarctic Territory.
• British Indian Ocean Territory.
• British Virgin Islands.
• Cayman Islands.
• Falkland Islands.
• Gibraltar

Hardly likely to keep UK industry busy for long.

And it's not just James Dyson's idea of EU interference, i.e. insisting on documentation to be in 26 languages. There are many waiting in the wings for the 'Great Reform Bill' who would try to drop all the insistence on 'elf 'n safety nonsence etc.', so here in the UK, having got used to quality products that comply with the same EU regulations that China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia et al seem to cope with despite them not even using the same alphabet as us, we are still free to buy imported products. Not everbody buys soley on price, value comes into it as well

 

[Groningen]

With your Brexit and your "strong" Theresa May i enough watching episodes of Have i got news for you on Youtube. With that partyconferencespeech of Theresa May almost that could go wrong; went wrong.

 

[Howardh]

With your Brexit and your "strong" Theresa May i enough watching episodes of Have i got news for you on Youtube. With that partyconferencespeech of Theresa May almost that could go wrong; went wrong.

The most unsackable PM we have ever had. Her position is totally secure, even if the backdrop fell on her. Because - no-one wants the job. Boris, Gove, That Woman, Rees-Smug, none of them want it because Brexit is a job that can't be done. Otherwise they'd be in, taking all the glory. Dominic Raab, he LOVES Brexit. Well get in there and lead the country then...."oh, can't do that. the garden needs mowing".

Pathetic the whole bunch of them. Just pathetic.

 

[HSTEd]

Well it's not quite like that. The '60 million' is the population of the only market likely to have any sales, - apart from such lucrative bazaars as:

But contrary to the "march of the makers" propaganda, manufacturing of commodity items for export is not a significant part of the British economy.
The only part of the manufacturing sector still making lots of export earnings are things that will likely be still bought despite tarrifs, unless they are utterly absurd.

And it's not just James Dyson's idea of EU interference, i.e. insisting on documentation to be in 26 languages. There are many waiting in the wings for the 'Great Reform Bill' who would try to drop all the insistence on 'elf 'n safety nonsence etc.', so here in the UK, having got used to quality products that comply with the same EU regulations that China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia et al seem to cope with despite them not even using the same alphabet as us, we are still free to buy imported products. Not everbody buys soley on price, value comes into it as well

That political battle is still to be fought, and is hardly inherent in Brexit.
And whilst people sometimes buy on value, almost everyone buys primarily on Price - that is the sad fact about our society.

 

[AM9]

... That political battle is still to be fought, and is hardly inherent in Brexit.
And whilst people sometimes buy on value, almost everyone buys primarily on Price - that is the sad fact about our society.

Although generally you get what you pay for - or less, a haphazard approach to quality and safety standards brings very little cost saving anyway. Add to that the perpetually low productivity of UK business means that any trend towards creating a captive market for goods and services can only mean rising prices and poor customer services from a lazy supplier base. It's Trumponomics without the teeth. That trend is inherent in leaving the EU (although for obvious reasons not declared) in the UK's urge for more lax regulation on industry. All this clamour about 'a level playing field' is all about a less level playing field, - in their favour of course.

 

[HSTEd]

Although generally you get what you pay for - or less, a haphazard approach to quality and safety standards brings very little cost saving anyway. Add to that the perpetually low productivity of UK business means that any trend towards creating a captive market for goods and services can only mean rising prices and poor customer services from a lazy supplier base.

The low productivity is not really a result of 'lazy' businesses as such.
Mainly it is a reasonable reaction to the very low wages we allow to be paid in the UK - why should they invest in plant equipment when they can just employ more minimum wage drones to produce their products?

 

[tspaul26]

And whilst people sometimes buy on value, almost everyone buys primarily on Price - that is the sad fact about our society.

Quality, price, service: choose any two.

 

[fowler9]

The low productivity is not really a result of 'lazy' businesses as such.
Mainly it is a reasonable reaction to the very low wages we allow to be paid in the UK - why should they invest in plant equipment when they can just employ more minimum wage drones to produce their products?

Do you reckon when we leave the EU our employers are suddenly going to become more generous?

 

[HSTEd]

Do you reckon when we leave the EU our employers are suddenly going to become more generous?

No, but the supply of low paid workers from abroad willing to tolerate awful pay and conditions will dry up.
Farmers won't be able to pay staff a pittance to pick fruit by hand for example

 

[fowler9]

No, but the supply of low paid workers from abroad willing to tolerate awful pay and conditions will dry up.
Farmers won't be able to pay staff a pittance to pick fruit by hand for example

So the problem wasn't the EU, it was what our farmers were willing to pay?

 

[HSTEd]

So the problem wasn't the EU, it was what our farmers were willing to pay?

No it was what Eastern European workers were willing to take and what the Government were willing to allow them to take.
Cheap labour removes any pressure to improve productivity

 

[radamfi]

Not all EU workers are earning a pittance. For example, in my field of engineering consultancy, we have many EU citizens earning £30-60K. If they weren't there, the vacancies would probably not have been filled. There simply aren't enough Brits around with the right qualifications and interest in the job.

 

[AM9]

No it was what Eastern European workers were willing to take and what the Government were willing to allow them to take.
Cheap labour removes any pressure to improve productivity

I don't know how old you are but before we joined the EEC, there were frequent reports about how UK productivity lagged behing European countries and the US. The excuses tended to be that the continental nations had their infrastructure rebuilt following war damage, raising their productivity above ours. The US on the other hand wasn't bombed so they had strong industries. The UK unions nailed it highlighting the relative levels of direct investment in industry, which industry predictably denied instead they blamed the 'english disease' of lazy workers. Since joining the EU, real low productivity continues to be put down to anything but capitalists' reluctance to invest in industry. Now it seems that their apologists are blaming the supply of cheap labour for the lack of meaningful investment and that selfishness is a 'reasonable reaction'. Our captains of industry really are a bunch of lazy and tight shysters but that doesn't bother them because they have their money and a good supply of fans to defend them.

 

[fowler9]

No it was what Eastern European workers were willing to take and what the Government were willing to allow them to take.
Cheap labour removes any pressure to improve productivity

How much do you reckon people should get paid for picking fruit? Do you reckon the farmers are going to start paying above minimum wage now? My eastern European mate Jacek makes a tidy earning driving cabs as does my scouse born and bred mate Norm. If there is one good thing that may come out of Brexit it will be the Brexiters realising that it is our own government shafting us and not the EU.