EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[HSTEd]

How much do you reckon people should get paid for picking fruit? Do you reckon the farmers are going to start paying above minimum wage now?

They should pay whatever the market requires to provide the labour they need?
They will either pay above the minimum wage or the produce will rot in the field.
And if they can't afford to pay what it takes, then it seems likely that hand picked fruit production in the UK is a net loss to the UK economy.

Not all EU workers are earning a pittance. For example, in my field of engineering consultancy, we have many EU citizens earning £30-60K. If they weren't there, the vacancies would probably not have been filled. There simply aren't enough Brits around with the right qualifications and interest in the job.

The pay would likely have increased until there were enough brits around with the right qualifications and interest in the job.
If you can make a £100k being an engineering consultant, then more people will likely do the requisite qualifications.

 

[radamfi]

The pay would likely have increased until there were enough brits around with the right qualifications and interest in the job.
If you can make a £100k being an engineering consultant, then more people will likely do the requisite qualifications.

It's isn't a simple as that. We regularly hear in the news about the lack of people studying so-called "STEM" subjects, not just in Britain. There are a lot of people going to university but doing other things.

 

[Howardh]

Interesting that the latest Yougov poll suggests the majority are now against Brexit (will of the people and all that) I wonder if Labour will bite the bullet and come down firmly on the side of staying in the Single Market and Customs Union (EEA I suppose) and I'm sure that would be accepted as the way forward by Tory Brexit dissenters?

Would be fascinating what happens if the public trend away from Brexit gathers momentum, yet we end up with "no deal", regarding the future of the Tories and the next General Election. I'm told the politicians don't read these "polls", apart from them looking for every microscopic trend of course, and if they didn't how can they explain "what made you go to the country when you had a 20% lead in the polls?"

 

[najaB]

Anyone for British oranges?

British farmers would produce more food themselves in the event of the UK leaving the EU without a trade deal, a cabinet minister has suggested.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling was responding to industry claims that food prices could rise sharply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

If this happened, he said the UK would respond by "growing more here and buying more from around the world".

Labour said his comments amounted to telling people to "dig for no deal".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41627341

 

[bramling]

Interesting that the latest Yougov poll suggests the majority are now against Brexit (will of the people and all that) I wonder if Labour will bite the bullet and come down firmly on the side of staying in the Single Market and Customs Union (EEA I suppose) and I'm sure that would be accepted as the way forward by Tory Brexit dissenters?

Would be fascinating what happens if the public trend away from Brexit gathers momentum, yet we end up with "no deal", regarding the future of the Tories and the next General Election. I'm told the politicians don't read these "polls", apart from them looking for every microscopic trend of course, and if they didn't how can they explain "what made you go to the country when you had a 20% lead in the polls?"

Rather reluctant to take any poll too seriously, based on recent experience. I don't know anyone that's changed their mind - everyone I know that voted Brexit still wants it, even if they're not overly happy at the way the process is being managed by the current politicians.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No, but the supply of low paid workers from abroad willing to tolerate awful pay and conditions will dry up.
Farmers won't be able to pay staff a pittance to pick fruit by hand for example

1. What do you think will happen to prices of British fruit if farmers are forced to pay higher wages to get the fruit picked?
2. Are you sure pay and conditions are awful? I'll grant that pay and conditions for fruit-picking appear to be too low to attract many UK citizens to do the work, but we do have a lot of legislation about minimum wage and working conditions etc. If pay and conditions truly were awful, that would suggest some laws are being broken.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Rather reluctant to take any poll too seriously, based on recent experience. I don't know anyone that's changed their mind - everyone I know that voted Brexit still wants it, even if they're not overly happy at the way the process is being managed by the current politicians.

Agree, polls are a bit rocky at the moment and Brexiteers are not the type to change their minds.

 

[HSTEd]

1. What do you think will happen to prices of British fruit if farmers are forced to pay higher wages to get the fruit picked?

In the short term they will increase.
In the long term they will either go out of business entirely or they will (more likely) invest in automation to reduce their labour requirement.

2. Are you sure pay and conditions are awful? I'll grant that pay and conditions for fruit-picking appear to be too low to attract many UK citizens to do the work, but we do have a lot of legislation about minimum wage and working conditions etc. If pay and conditions truly were awful, that would suggest some laws are being broken.

Minimum wage and working conditions are awful.
I know, I've done enough jobs on that basis to know.

 

[NSEFAN]

In the short term they will increase.
In the long term they will either go out of business entirely or they will (more likely) invest in automation to reduce their labour requirement.

Neither of these things sound like they will be much good the UK citizen. Higher prices for the consumer, and fewer jobs (i.e. less tax collected).

 

[furnessvale]

It's isn't a simple as that. We regularly hear in the news about the lack of people studying so-called "STEM" subjects, not just in Britain. There are a lot of people going to university but doing other things.

Perhaps we should adopt the socialist state model and only offer courses of use to the country.
Those insisting on studying soft cushy subjects can either depart for foreign shores, pay their own way or, heaven forbid, get a job picking fruit.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps we should adopt the socialist state model and only offer courses of use to the country.
Those insisting on studying soft cushy subjects can either depart for foreign shores, pay their own way or, heaven forbid, get a job picking fruit.

That's a slippery slope. How do we decide what's of "use to the country" or not?

Don't we need historians, and geographers, and literary experts, and archaeologists, etc etc?

 

[najaB]

That's a slippery slope. How do we decide what's of "use to the country" or not?

The Government will decide.

Don't we need historians, and geographers, and literary experts, and archaeologists, etc etc?

The Ministry of Truth can provide all the facts we need.

 

[furnessvale]

The Government will decide.
The Ministry of Truth can provide all the facts we need.

Welcome to the socialist world so beloved by Corbyn!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Minimum wage and working conditions are awful.
I know, I've done enough jobs on that basis to know.

That largely depends on the job and personal circumstances. Making pizzas and living at home earning £7.50 per hour (outside of the SE) isn't such a bad life for many people.

 

[HSTEd]

Neither of these things sound like they will be much good the UK citizen. Higher prices for the consumer, and fewer jobs (i.e. less tax collected).

Neither of these things sound like they will be much good the UK citizen. Higher prices for the consumer, and fewer jobs (i.e. less tax collected).

Fewer people working back breaking poorly paid jobs is good for society.
And I'm not sure having vast numbers of immigrant labourers remitting money is that helpful to the economy.

If economic growth and tax revenue are all that matters we should abolish the minimum wage and absolutely all immigration requirements and watch labour costs reach their global equilibrium level

 

[najaB]

If economic growth and tax revenue are all that matters we should abolish the minimum wage and absolutely all immigration requirements and watch labour costs reach their global equilibrium level

Most of what you post I respect the logic behind even if I don't agree with the conclusion but this is complete nonsense. This would result in a massive drop in income tax take, and we already know that it's difficult at the best of times to extract the correct amount of corporate taxes from the large companies who would flock here to take advantage of our cheap imported labour pool. Not to mention the mass exodus of higher-skilled workers.

We aren't China, Indonesia, Bangladesh or Malaysia and it makes no sense trying to outcompete them on the basis of cheap labour.

 

[HSTEd]

Most of what you post I respect the logic behind even if I don't agree with the conclusion but this is complete nonsense. This would result in a massive drop in income tax take, and we already know that it's difficult at the best of times to extract the correct amount of corporate taxes from the large companies who would flock here to take advantage of our cheap imported labour pool. Not to mention the mass exodus of higher-skilled workers.

We aren't China, Indonesia, Bangladesh or Malaysia and it makes no sense trying to outcompete them on the basis of cheap labour.

Well that was just an (admittedly ham fisted) attemt at reductio ad absurdia relating to the idea that more jobs and economic growth are the only real measure of a society's success.

 

[Howardh]

So, our strong and stable government can't even show up to vote for their own policy.

This government has messed up the budget, failed to win a general election outright when they had an open goal, are getting less than nowhere with Brexit and now can't support their own bill.

And Brexiters want to give them more power.

You couldn't make.....

 

[najaB]

Well that was just an (admittedly ham fisted) attemt at reductio ad absurdia relating to the idea that more jobs and economic growth are the only real measure of a society's success.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense.

 

[Howardh]

So, despite being told it's all scaremongering, flights really ARE at risk if there's no deal (and airspace isn't controlled by the WTO).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...uarantee-flights-after-exit-from-eu-x2s57r7c0 First couple of paragraphs, the rest is behind a paywall (and no, I don't know how to make a quote on this new site....)



British airlines are preparing to warn their customers that flights booked after March 2019 may not take off and they will not pay compensation if planes are grounded.

In a stark response to the uncertainties of Brexit, airlines are drawing up contingency plans to update websites with notices alerting passengers purchasing advance tickets that their bookings cannot be guaranteed.

The move, which has been discussed with the government, would be introduced in spring next year if Brexit talks are still deadlocked. It would apply to all tickets sold to EU destinations and up to 17 other countries, including the United States, where British airlines’ legal flight rights are overseen by Europe-wide agreements.

While airlines say they would refund customers the cost of their tickets they…

 

[fowler9]

So, despite being told it's all scaremongering, flights really ARE at risk if there's no deal (and airspace isn't controlled by the WTO).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...uarantee-flights-after-exit-from-eu-x2s57r7c0 First couple of paragraphs, the rest is behind a paywall (and no, I don't know how to make a quote on this new site....)



British airlines are preparing to warn their customers that flights booked after March 2019 may not take off and they will not pay compensation if planes are grounded.

In a stark response to the uncertainties of Brexit, airlines are drawing up contingency plans to update websites with notices alerting passengers purchasing advance tickets that their bookings cannot be guaranteed.

The move, which has been discussed with the government, would be introduced in spring next year if Brexit talks are still deadlocked. It would apply to all tickets sold to EU destinations and up to 17 other countries, including the United States, where British airlines’ legal flight rights are overseen by Europe-wide agreements.

While airlines say they would refund customers the cost of their tickets they…

I've been saying this for over a year mainly because it was something I was aware of. Gave up trying to explain to Brexiters that it wasn't my main concern, just that it was one of many unintended consequences of this mess.

 

[fowler9]

What really winds me up about Brexiters, beyond the "You lost, get over it" and "You don't like democracy" comments you see below the line on the internet, is that they keep telling you that everything will be fine despite us having no plan A for what the country is going to do, let alone a plan B or C for if it all goes wrong. Would you vote in a general election for a party that had no plan or policies and just said "Don't worry, it's going to be great"? Of course you wouldn't. The whole thing is ludicrous.

 

[radamfi]

Brexiters don't care how bad things get.

 

[fowler9]

Brexiters don't care how bad things get.

I saw a terrifying comment on a newspaper website the other day. Some Brexiter saying it was going to be tough but we would go back to basics and get through the British way. They were channeling the Blitz Spirit. Madness. Like "It's going to be bad but at least we aren't being bombed by the Luftwaffe".

 

[Howardh]

I saw a terrifying comment on a newspaper website the other day. Some Brexiter saying it was going to be tough but we would go back to basics and get through the British way. They were channeling the Blitz Spirit. Madness. Like "It's going to be bad but at least we aren't being bombed by the Luftwaffe".

Well be honest, we have been told by Graying that we can grow more. So that's all good then.
Presumably the M6 will be one grand allotment?

 

[najaB]

Would you vote in a general election for a party that had no plan or policies and just said "Don't worry, it's going to be great"? Of course you wouldn't.

Slightly less than half the active electorate did.

 

[nlogax]

Well be honest, we have been told by Graying that we can grow more. So that's all good then.
Presumably the M6 will be one grand allotment?

Indeed. I look forward to our collective bright future in the sunlit uplands, raised on the spoils from a thriving national industry of innovative jams and preserves.

*cough*

The appalling mess to end all appalling messes. In spite of ourselves we're intent on marching towards a poorer, less open society via a mixture of pure belligerence, long-held blinkered views and utter naiveté. Those who cling on to this fantasy image of the UK wrapped in Blitz spirit and muddling through have condemned us all - especially the poorest in society - to a dim future. It's the ultimate national act of self harm. No plan A, no plan B, no desire to listen to facts - remember those, right? - no willingness to engage with the rest of the world on a sensible basis.

The UK is currently a slow motion car crash, and in March 2019 I fear we'll finally hit the wall about which we've been repeatedly warned since this unpleasantness started early last year.

To summarise; I believe we're hosed.

 

[Howardh]

Indeed. I look forward to our collective bright future in the sunlit uplands, raised on the spoils from a thriving national industry of innovative jams and preserves.

*cough*

The appalling mess to end all appalling messes. In spite of ourselves we're intent on marching towards a poorer, less open society via a mixture of pure belligerence, long-held blinkered views and utter naiveté. Those who cling on to this fantasy image of the UK wrapped in Blitz spirit and muddling through have condemned us all - especially the poorest in society - to a dim future. It's the ultimate national act of self harm. No plan A, no plan B, no desire to listen to facts - remember those, right? - no willingness to engage with the rest of the world on a sensible basis.

The UK is currently a slow motion car crash, and in March 2019 I fear we'll finally hit the wall about which we've been repeatedly warned since this unpleasantness started early last year.

To summarise; I believe we're hosed.

Planning my retirement - if things go to plan I'll inherit a decent house and some cash, add my own savings and pensions means I'm lucky enough to get the hell outta here. As can Redwood, Boris, Farage, Rees-Smug and the rest of them. Can all who voted "leave" say the same thing? Did anyone on the bread-line, just-about-managing, a regular at the food banks etc stand up in the debates and say "vote to leave, you'll be much better off"? Or was it just a load of politicians who checked their offshore accounts the day after, just in case?

Flashy car salesmen the lot of them. The car's shiny on the outside, but underneath....

 

[najaB]

Planning my retirement - if things go to plan I'll inherit a decent house and some cash, add my own savings and pensions means I'm lucky enough to get the hell outta here.

I'm just back from visiting my parents in Barbados. It's looking more and more attractive as a retirement/alternative career destination!

 

[Howardh]

I'm just back from visiting my parents in Barbados. It's looking more and more attractive as a retirement/alternative career destination!

Barbados? Boulogne's just fine by me!
Before Brexit I was planning to downsize here, buy a small retirement flat here and rent or buy a small apartment/studio in one of Ibiza, Menorca or (if I had the readies) Formentera, and flip between the two. Goodness knows what the situation will be after B-day.