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Diverted trains passing crowded platforms at speed

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Bromley boy

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At Bromley South I have seen fast trains come through without prior warning and as I'm sure you're aware the island platforms can become very crowded particularly platform 3/4 where most fast services to Victoria depart from. I've often thought Bromley South would be a prime candidate for platform edge gates although how practical that would be with various types of trains stopping there is another matter.
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This is a symptom of a London end entrance/exit to a relatively narrow platform (particularly alongside the cafe and toilet buildings). Unfortunately people tend to bunch up near the entrance in order to be close to the exit at Victoria.

Of course there is always the option to move further along the platform (many peak “Victoria only” trains serving BMS are 12 cars) but people are unwilling to do this.

I dout we will ever see platform edge doors on the mainline. There are too many stock varieties in use + national rail platforms don’t *generally* get as busy as tube platforms, where you can be pushed close to the edge by sheer numbers of people.
 
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Antman

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This is a symptom of a London end entrance/exit to a relatively narrow platform (particularly alongside the cafe and toilet buildings). Unfortunately people tend to bunch up near the entrance in order to be close to the exit at Victoria.

Of course there is always the option to move further along the platform (many peak “Victoria only” trains serving BMS are 12 cars) but people are unwilling to do this.

I dout we will ever see platform edge doors on the mainline. There are too many stock varieties in use + national rail platforms don’t *generally* get as busy as tube platforms, where you can be pushed close to the edge by sheer numbers of people.

Yes I see what you mean in fact I spoke to a member of staff at BMS, they're quite a friendly bunch there, and he said the idea of down trains stopping further down the platform was to try and reduce overcrowding at the London end of the platform and that there had been some talk of another entrance/exit.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I know - i just think an audible approach warning has some merit. After all commuters can be like sheep................

Oh don't we know it. I had to yank one muppet out of the way at Surbiton earlier on in the year when the fasts were going via the USL at speed and he was busy on the the phone with his headphones on backpack over the edge of the platform, if I hadn't pulled him back he would have been spun or catapulted as his backpack would have been hit by the train. :rolleyes:
 

AM9

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Rather than a reasoned discussion about it lets just smugly brand all passengers as stupid eh?

My thoughts also. There seems to be an assumption that everybody anywhere near the yellow line wants to be there. Nobody here thinks that all passengers who find themselves near the limit want to be there, - the problem is that crowds don't behave like a single rational person. I'm not even blaming the drivers for driving at linespeed through stations, - that's how the service is provided. It's just this attitude that any action that might remotely result in spoiling a driver's day (or even his life) makes everybody (except the driver) an idiot. It's a consequence of stopping trains at platforms that are inadequate for the volume of passengers yet also have fast trains passing through. I would expect drivers to be aware of such issues, either through training or if they have anything more than a modicum of driving experience, through their normal work. It's not as if crowded platforms are a new thing, - they've been around since well before every train driver there is today was born.
 

ComUtoR

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and he said the idea of down trains stopping further down the platform was to try and reduce overcrowding at the London end of the platform

He was wrong. The stop marks were moved for a different reason and then moved back for another.
 

Antman

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He was wrong. The stop marks were moved for a different reason and then moved back for another.

Might I ask what those reasons are? I'm not doubting what you've said I'm just curious to know.
 

Bromley boy

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I would expect drivers to be aware of such issues, either through training or if they have anything more than a modicum of driving experience, through their normal work. It's not as if crowded platforms are a new thing, - they've been around since well before every train driver there is today was born.

Drivers are well aware of the issues, but the only tools in their armoury are blowing the horn and braking (which will be pretty futile if they’re approaching at 100mph and are close enough to see a danger).

I find the most crowded platforms often aren’t an issue. Commuters tend to be pretty sensible and stand a safe distance back, even when it’s busy. I’ll repeat that the vast majority of NR platforms simply aren’t so busy that it’s impossible to stand a safe distance back, in the way that tube platforms can be (hence platform edge doors make sense on the tube).

I think the frustration that’s being voiced is at the small minority of idiots (and yes, I’m afraid that’s what they are) who needlessly stand, or allow their kids to stand, dangerously close to the edge of the platform, even when it’s quiet, for reasons of bravado, blind ignorance, or whatever.
 
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Bromley boy

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Might I ask what those reasons are? I'm not doubting what you've said I'm just curious to know.

I was always warned to aim to stop a few feet back from the London-end “S” car marks at BMS because the station is on a steep down gradient and platform length isn’t a limiting factor.

I believe there have been quite a few overruns, particularly in the wet.
 

Antman

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I was always warned to aim to stop a few feet back from the London-end “S” car marks at BMS because the station is on a steep down gradient and platform length isn’t a limiting factor.

I believe there have been quite a few overruns, particularly in the wet.

Thanks for the explanation.
 

SPADTrap

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Rather than a reasoned discussion about it lets just smugly brand all passengers as stupid eh?

The ones who stand beyond the yellow line and then get shocked/surprised when a train passes at high speed, yes. I guess you won't get it until you've struck someone/part of their belongings.
 

Antman

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The ones who stand beyond the yellow line and then get shocked/surprised when a train passes at high speed, yes. I guess you won't get it until you've struck someone/part of their belongings.

Again.............somebody correctly standing behind the yellow line could be at risk from turbulence.
 

SPADTrap

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My thoughts also. There seems to be an assumption that everybody anywhere near the yellow line wants to be there. Nobody here thinks that all passengers who find themselves near the limit want to be there, - the problem is that crowds don't behave like a single rational person. I'm not even blaming the drivers for driving at linespeed through stations, - that's how the service is provided. It's just this attitude that any action that might remotely result in spoiling a driver's day (or even his life) makes everybody (except the driver) an idiot. It's a consequence of stopping trains at platforms that are inadequate for the volume of passengers yet also have fast trains passing through. I would expect drivers to be aware of such issues, either through training or if they have anything more than a modicum of driving experience, through their normal work. It's not as if crowded platforms are a new thing, - they've been around since well before every train driver there is today was born.

So I think what you're saying is we need better crowd control at busy stations? I think if I slowed a HST on the chance St Albans might be busy it would raise questions across all the operators as to why I caused delays. I would like to think if the platforms were dangerously crowded people wouldn't continue to pour onto them from the stairs? You know, not putting yourself into a risky situation?
 

SPADTrap

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Again.............somebody correctly standing behind the yellow line could be at risk from turbulence.

We're so aware of it yet continue to do it, that says a lot. I think if you're stood well back you're not likely to get hurt.
 

bramling

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No chance.

Some tube lines run on moving block ATO so may enter platforms more slowly during busy periods due to following other trains. Absolutely nothing to do with crowding levels.

It’s the same as the mainline. Horn (or kettle whistle) and emergency brake if necessary.

Occasionally station staff will call up and request trains be cautioned. On a normal line there would then be a radio message go out. On ATO lines drivers would be asked to go into manual. It’s more likely to happen for an incident like an ill person being treated on the platform or if there’s a report of a suicidal person, but it does happen very occasionally for overcrowding, especially if there’s an event on.

Some drivers will take the initiative themselves at a few places and times, but it’s certainly not a requirement, in fact taking trains out of ATO for this reason is frowned upon if anything. The general consensus is that a green signal means drive at line speed, and that includes entering a potentially crowded platform at up to 40-45 mph.
 

AM9

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So I think what you're saying is we need better crowd control at busy stations? I think if I slowed a HST on the chance St Albans might be busy it would raise questions across all the operators as to why I caused delays. I would like to think if the platforms were dangerously crowded people wouldn't continue to pour onto them from the stairs? You know, not putting yourself into a risky situation?

I wasn't sugegsting that the drivers were donig anything wrong (or even avoidable) by travelling at line speed through stations whether empty of crowded, hence my comment: "I'm not even blaming the drivers for driving at linespeed through stations, - that's how the service is provided". Maybe better crowd control as a short term measure, and where stations are perpetually overcrowded to an unsafe level, a more permanent measure should be considered. That probably won't be trivial in cost, inconvenience or even eventual absolute capacity, but where safety is concerned, it is wrong to assume that it's just the way it is. Not all passsengers at St Albans City (and some other stations) that appear to be encroaching on the hazardous area near a passing train's path are responsible for their actual position, and in practice, passing them all off a 'idiots' is somewhat missing the point that the infrastructure's inadequacy for the demands placed on it is as much or more to blame.
 

bramling

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I wasn't sugegsting that the drivers were donig anything wrong (or even avoidable) by travelling at line speed through stations whether empty of crowded, hence my comment: "I'm not even blaming the drivers for driving at linespeed through stations, - that's how the service is provided". Maybe better crowd control as a short term measure, and where stations are perpetually overcrowded to an unsafe level, a more permanent measure should be considered. That probably won't be trivial in cost, inconvenience or even eventual absolute capacity, but where safety is concerned, it is wrong to assume that it's just the way it is. Not all passsengers at St Albans City (and some other stations) that appear to be encroaching on the hazardous area near a passing train's path are responsible for their actual position, and in practice, passing them all off a 'idiots' is somewhat missing the point that the infrastructure's inadequacy for the demands placed on it is as much or more to blame.

It would be quite easy to reduce crowding at somewhere like St Albans by simply imposing limits on the numbers of people who can enter the station at the busiest times. LU do this by reducing the number of entry ticket gates available for use, causing people to queue outside instead. Not sure whether commuters would prefer this...
 

SPADTrap

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I wasn't sugegsting that the drivers were donig anything wrong (or even avoidable) by travelling at line speed through stations whether empty of crowded, hence my comment: "I'm not even blaming the drivers for driving at linespeed through stations, - that's how the service is provided". Maybe better crowd control as a short term measure, and where stations are perpetually overcrowded to an unsafe level, a more permanent measure should be considered. That probably won't be trivial in cost, inconvenience or even eventual absolute capacity, but where safety is concerned, it is wrong to assume that it's just the way it is. Not all passsengers at St Albans City (and some other stations) that appear to be encroaching on the hazardous area near a passing train's path are responsible for their actual position, and in practice, passing them all off a 'idiots' is somewhat missing the point that the infrastructure's inadequacy for the demands placed on it is as much or more to blame.

Crowd control similar to what is done on LU sounds like a sensible measure then. I think my original comment has been taken out of context but let it roll. How surprised can you be when a train passes a platform? Unless you thought it was the bus stop, that is what I was getting at with the 'stupid' comment.
 

BanburyBlue

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I guess the situation is that some people need saving from themselves?

If you were to design the railway today, I don't believe the current situation would be allowed? 100 mph trains running past people who are a few feet away. You would never find a footpath alongside a Motorway without barriers, and indeed new London Underground stations have those barrier door things (Jubilee Line extension). I know it's easier with LU as trains same length and type etc.

You could imagine a scenario where an accident happened where a number of people were knocked off a busy platform into the path of a fast train. The press would have a health and safety field day - and the railway would be blamed. Look how the railway industry is blamed for numpty drivers driving across level crossings. You also have to factor in the poor driver - God knows how they deal with someone jumping in front of their train.

Accepting that any mass station change/improvements would be horrendously expensive and take years, I'm just surprised that new/updated stations don't have more safety measures in place for platforms that have 'fast non-stopping' services. This could be either barriers or some method of preventing passengers getting on to a platform until their train is there.

Just feels like an accident waiting to happen!!
 

221129

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Accepting that any mass station change/improvements would be horrendously expensive and take years, I'm just surprised that new/updated stations don't have more safety measures in place for platforms that have 'fast non-stopping' services. This could be either barriers or some method of preventing passengers getting on to a platform until their train is there.

Just feels like an accident waiting to happen!!

There is nothing you can practically do...
 

221129

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I'm not sure about others but my biggest concern with platforms on a diversion is always if you are running through slowly or come to a stand.
 

Antman

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It would be quite easy to reduce crowding at somewhere like St Albans by simply imposing limits on the numbers of people who can enter the station at the busiest times. LU do this by reducing the number of entry ticket gates available for use, causing people to queue outside instead. Not sure whether commuters would prefer this...

Indeed, for example at Newbury Racecourse I believe it is standard practice not to allow the homeward bound crowds onto the platform until any HST's have gone through which seems a very sensible move. Of course I realise that at some stations (ie the aforementioned Bromley South) this would just not be possible.
 

SPADTrap

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I'm not sure about others but my biggest concern with platforms on a diversion is always if you are running through slowly or come to a stand.

If possible I'll stop short of the platform in this situation, but even then people have climbed down the ramp to try to board while asking why I've stopped there or giving me a rude gesture as if I've done it on purpose to make them walk! :o
 

notverydeep

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How surprised can you be when a train passes a platform? Unless you thought it was the bus stop, that is what I was getting at with the 'stupid' comment.

In the incident I related at the start of the thread, I was stood at where carriage 5 of 8 would stop (at the north end of the platform) from which the train approached, behind the person standing adjacent to but still behind the yellow line. Because as previously mentioned, the platform was very crowded I couldn't see very far along the platform to either left or right. I did know a train was approaching, as I have learned which track circuit boundary triggers the relevant approaching announcement on the station Passenger Information System. Because the vast majority of movements stop, this set my normal expectation for the time that would elapse before train's arrival. Having heard that the, "approaching train is not scheduled to stop at this station" and being an interested railway industry worker, I stood on tip-toe and to see what was approaching and, much sooner than even I expected, I could see just the roof of the train approaching at speed.

Given that most of the passengers next to me were probably not interested railway workers, some with headphones on or at least looking at smart phones and given the announcement is fairly low key and did not suggest that the train would pass at speed and given that until the visual message only changed (at the same time as the announcement) from the 08:25 London King's Cross is expected at 08:59 to stand clear very shortly before the train actually passing at 08:57:30, the answer in this case was clearly very surprised in quite a few cases. They were clearly not aware of it until it reached them.

Again my point wasn't specifically about the yellow line. I certainly couldn't see people standing beyond it (although clearly a few do from time to time). It is painted about a metre back from the platform at this location.

The speed of the passing train clearly caused those around me to feel they were in an uncomfortable or unsafe position that they would prefer not to be in. They might have sought to stand in a safer position if the horn had been sounded and / or the station PA was clearer in indicating that the train would pass at speed. It is important to distinguish between inadviseable behaviour of passengers being foolish enough to stand beyond the line, even where such things are a frequent occurrence on the one hand and untypical situations such as this on the other. One of the supervisors at WGC in particular berates anyone doing this with the station PA or simply by shouting! However, in this case many more passengers than even a normal peak loading were on the platform as the expected train was to be the first towards London after a two hour interruption to the peak service.

I do know that the slow lines through Welwyn Garden City are used by freight and ECS workings, but in my experience of these 40 to 50 mph (as was the case for the two following trains) and sounding the horn on approach is normal. Freight and ECS are of course kept away from the busiest times in the busiest direction when the capacity for passenger services is most required. This means that a high proportion of passengers will rarely see such a train pass. Whether we like it or not, our industry's passengers are conditioned by what they normally encounter and the principles of railway safety management require that this is taken account, such that the risk is mitigated to the level of 'as low as reasonably practicable'
 

Clip

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Any sort of timetable would be decimated if trains had to purposely slow down every station they were passing through.
 

bramling

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Crowd control similar to what is done on LU sounds like a sensible measure then. I think my original comment has been taken out of context but let it roll. How surprised can you be when a train passes a platform? Unless you thought it was the bus stop, that is what I was getting at with the 'stupid' comment.

I think the most problematic scenario is where you have commuters on a platform all bunched in particular locations, effectively queues forming for where they know a door will stop. They will be very much loathed to stand back as it means they could 'lose' their place in the 'queue', the consequence of which is that they may (i) not get first pick of the seats, (ii) not get a seat at all, or (iii) not get on the train at all. This effect encourages people to do things they probably otherwise wouldn't do - like stand close to the edge of the platform or stand awkwardly close to others. It does then make things hazardous if an unexpected non-stop trains runs through, at speed or otherwise.

Personally on the rare occasions I'm in that situation, I normally have my folding bike with me, and I make very sure I spread all the bits out as far as possible. Get some real dagger looks though.
 

HarleyDavidson

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You stand on the US platform at Woking and if a Freightliner which occasionally comes that way has a clear run they go through there at 75 mph.

I remember coming up in the past with a 10 car RA Winchester to Waterloo, we came into a thunderstorm one morning and the Portsmouth line was completely stuffed and I'm doing the ton through Brookwood, wipers going full bifters and I can barely see out and I'm running on greens and I was expecting the normal check down and I didn't get it and as I came over Woking junction & up to the home signal doing 100 I could just make out the hoards of passengers on the UF platform, I just let rip with the horns and hoped, they got a 100 mph power shower, but you couldn't really make them out clearly until the home signals and at that high speed it would have been exceptionally messy if someone had fallen or got clipped.
 
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