Diverted trains passing crowded platforms at speed

[Bald Rick]

It would be quite easy to reduce crowding at somewhere like St Albans by simply imposing limits on the numbers of people who can enter the station at the busiest times. LU do this by reducing the number of entry ticket gates available for use, causing people to queue outside instead. Not sure whether commuters would prefer this...

The issue at St Albans is not passengers waiting for trains, who, as a rule, keep behind the line on both fast line platforms. The issue is passengers who have alighted at Platform 2 and are waiting to get onto the footbridge: 5-800 people crowding in a relatively small space. My personal record wait time is 7 minutes. TL employ staff with loudhailers specifically to warn passengers to keep behind the line on Platform 3 at such times.

 

[SPADTrap]

At my local station the yellow line is approachimg a metre back from the edge. It was moved back when tactile paving was fitted. In the morning peak people who stand behind the yellow line will be guaranteed to be shoved out of the way and be last on, so no one observes the line.

Was that really worth posting? The irony is astonishing!

Sounds like it was, are you one who behaves in this way hence the obvious taking of offence? I can't see how fighting for a space beyond the yellow line on high speed railway is anything other than idiotic, but I've been wrong before.

 

[Antman]

Sounds like it was, are you one who behaves in this way hence the obvious taking of offence? I can't see how fighting for a space beyond the yellow line on high speed railway is anything other than idiotic, but I've been wrong before.

As I've tried to explain, the yellow line isn't the issue. Standing a lot further back would be wise in the situation that the OP described but on a crowded platform it isn't possible.

 

[SPADTrap]

As I've tried to explain, the yellow line isn't the issue. Standing a lot further back would be wise in the situation that the OP described but on a crowded platform it isn't possible.

But in the post I quoted the inference was that it was a choice hence my 'idiots' comment. I'll bow out at this stage as I think we've misunderstood one another.

 

[Antman]

But in the post I quoted the inference was that it was a choice hence my 'idiots' comment. I'll bow out at this stage as I think we've misunderstood one another.

Fair enough, I think we have indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've tried to explain, the yellow line isn't the issue. Standing a lot further back would be wise in the situation that the OP described but on a crowded platform it isn't possible.

On the assumption that the people who first enter the platform are going to stand just behind the yellow line, how are people going to end up further forward without having committed assault on that row of people (and having risked them ending up actually on the track) by pushing them?

Anyway, if we're talking Snorbens it'll be 100% Class 700 before long (is it already?) - once that is the case DB style fences could be fitted with the gaps matching door spacing. That would have the added benefit of indicating where to queue and where to leave spare for people to get off when it's not quite as busy (works well on the LU stations with PEDs, even very busy ones like Canary Wharf). Then if someone is in front of the fence, the train is not dispatched, at least.

Would be seriously worth considering it in other very dangerous places with uniform stock allocation as well - Bank Northern and Central Line would strike me as good places for it, as that always feels like one person sneezing away from a group of people being pushed accidentally under a train. Merseyrail too, if as it seems there is no plan for PEDs with the new stock.

 

[Bromley boy]

Gatwick’s platforms are exceptionally narrow (for the linespeed) beside the escalators and also between a few of the support pillars and the platform edge.

Other parts of them are much more spacious - but these tend to be the bits not adjacent to exits or indeed short trains, and also the bits out in the open.

A lot of people bunch up beside the escalators and lifts towards the middle of the platforms. It is difficult to communicate the risks to tired and unfamiliar, and often non-English-speaking, passengers. They then end up squeezed between the yellow and white lines as the fast trains pass through, because any such trains will ideally be put ahead of trains which stop there for a couple of minutes.

As for the 319s, they did have dispensation for 100mph running in a couple of places, chiefly just south of Three Bridges station.

Now that you mention it, on the rare occasions I’ve used Gatwick Airport’s station I can recall seeing people bunching up quite dangerously, and with bulky luggage.

That station must surely be ripe for redevelopment.

 

[Clip]

I don't think anybody has suggested that should happen?

I think from the original post that's exactly what they were implying.

 

[notverydeep]

I think from the original post that's exactly what they were implying.

In my posting yesterday I clarified thus: "So I wouldn't suggest blanket speed restrictions for these locations, but I would suggest that trains away from their booked routes use the horn to warn passengers if they approach a congested platform (especially during disruption) and I would suggest that PA warnings are more explicit about a train passing at speed where this may not be the norm (even if it is the norm at quieter times of day)." Bear in mind that my original question was specific to diverted trains (in the case I observed it was an unusual event that happened during significant disruption). I plan train services and am very conscious that there are many platforms where trains passing at speed is normal and essential, but at these, fast non-stopping trains are part of passengers' normal expectations. Speed restrictions everywhere are not a sensible (or reasonably practical) mitigation, but the drivers of the trains following the 'incident train' did pass the platform at a significantly lower speed even though they had a clear signal (they also did sound their horns).

As I've tried to explain, the yellow line isn't the issue. Standing a lot further back would be wise in the situation that the OP described but on a crowded platform it isn't possible.

Further to this point, passengers (at least commuters) waiting at a busy platform for a busy train make a trade off between standing back and maximising safety and standing as close as possible to where the door will stop and maximising their chance of a seat or place on the train close to the exit or similar. In some cases, stand at the back of the platform equals get left behind. How passengers ‘weight’ the safety element of the trade off will depend on their personal risk assessment (which may well be subconscious). This means that passengers standing adjacent to the yellow line are acting 'logically', their journey will be longer and / or less comfortable if they don’t and this explains why so many passenger do this. An individual passenger’s assessment of the risk at the yellow line will be influenced by the messages they hear and see from Passenger Information Systems and signs, but it will also be heavily influenced by their day to day experience and because of this, it is particularly important for the industry to consider hazards that only manifest themselves infrequently and that may well end up being ‘under weighted’ in the passenger’s trade off.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

One of the supervisors at WGC who shouts or uses the PA frequently has good reason to do so.
On that same platform at WGC I once witnessed two adult males aged about 25-30, with golf bags, waiting for a train. One proceeds to remove a club and attempts to demonstrate his swing to his pal. The guy on the PA addressed them directly about the dangers of a metal club in close proximity to an overhead wire carrying high voltage electricity!
The pal started to moan to his friend that 'there's no way that club could touch the wires', at which point I told him to google the concept of 'arcing'. I remembered an incident of youths climbing a retaining wall near Euston (at Camden?) many years ago, who were electrocuted in just that way.
Some people DO need announcements that many regular travellers would consider to be unneccessary !!!

 

[notverydeep]

One of the supervisors at WGC who shouts or uses the PA frequently has good reason to do so.
On that same platform at WGC I once witnessed two adult males aged about 25-30, with golf bags, waiting for a train. One proceeds to remove a club and attempts to demonstrate his swing to his pal. The guy on the PA addressed them directly about the dangers of a metal club in close proximity to an overhead wire carrying high voltage electricity!
The pal started to moan to his friend that 'there's no way that club could touch the wires', at which point I told him to google the concept of 'arcing'. I remembered an incident of youths climbing a retaining wall near Euston (at Camden?) many years ago, who were electrocuted in just that way.
Some people DO need announcements that many regular travellers would consider to be unneccessary !!!

Indeed, from time to time he does berate the odd passenger who does stand over the yellow line while waiting for 2T93 08:25 to King's Cross (Usually they are just looking to see if there is any sign of it arriving). He tells them that there is a chance that a train might pass the platform at speed. After 11 years of commuting here, though he wasn't there at the time, I have finally seen him proved correct!

While most passengers are not idiots and those waiting on Monday that I could see were all behaving sensibly, I have worked in the industry long enough to know that there are certainly some!

 

[atillathehunn]

Most Belgian train drivers appear to give a warning shot on the horn as they approach stations. My regular route is Liege - Leuven - Brussels - Brugge. I would say 99% of them give a short toot on the horn as they approach.

The drivers of the ICE and Thalys at Leuven where they pass non stop are usually quite vocal.

Not sure if a rule or just de jure.

Furthermore the platforms on the fast lines between Leuven and Brussels are fenced off. Trains are passing around 160k/h I should think.

 

[Antman]

Indeed, from time to time he does berate the odd passenger who does stand over the yellow line while waiting for 2T93 08:25 to King's Cross (Usually they are just looking to see if there is any sign of it arriving). He tells them that there is a chance that a train might pass the platform at speed. After 11 years of commuting here, though he wasn't there at the time, I have finally seen him proved correct!

While most passengers are not idiots and those waiting on Monday that I could see were all behaving sensibly, I have worked in the industry long enough to know that there are certainly some!

And I don't suppose passengers would have expected fast trains coming through alongside the platform, presumably in normal circumstances fast trains all use the centre tracks?

 

[bramling]

And I don't suppose passengers would have expected fast trains coming through alongside the platform, presumably in normal circumstances fast trains all use the centre tracks?

Yes, at Welwyn GC I don’t think there’s any passenger trains booked to run non-stop through platforms 2 or 3. However, there will of course be freight trains, plus ECS moves (mainly peak bounceback workings or stock running from/to Hornsey Depot) booked via the slow lines, or run on the slow lines at the discretion of the signallers. In essence it’s not-at-all uncommon for one reason or another.

 

[221129]

At my local station the yellow line is approachimg a metre back from the edge. It was moved back when tactile paving was fitted. In the morning peak people who stand behind the yellow line will be guaranteed to be shoved out of the way and be last on, so no one observes the line.

Well, that is down to them then isn't it.

 

[bramling]

Well, that is down to them then isn't it.

Basically - yes... It’s not ideal, but it is what it is. Personally I’d have found a way of having the yellow line in a better position, but again it’s never quite that simple.

 

[Harbornite]

No matter where you go on a platform with passing trains there's always an attendant risk and to me the OP doesn't sound particularly concerning.

Case in point - I once was in the back cab of my train passing Levenshulme at about 70 mph on the down fast, with the down slow between me and the platform where a local service was due.

Risks are abundant on the railway and they do have a habit of sneaking up on you.

Indeed. Some chap suffered broken bones when he was struck by coal from the tender of a passing steam loco.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/trainspotters-leg-broken-flying-coal-2054301

 

[tsr]

Now that you mention it, on the rare occasions I’ve used Gatwick Airport’s station I can recall seeing people bunching up quite dangerously, and with bulky luggage.

That station must surely be ripe for redevelopment.

Refurbishments are on their way, but I'm not sure the platform layout is going to see drastic changes very soon.

Everything I've seen always seems to be "concourse concourse concourse", with platform improvements thrown in as an afterthought. People who have been to New Street or Waterloo's Mezzanine will see a theme here.

At least the anti-suicide measures at Gatwick have seemed to work, which is really good. It does at least bring down the numbers of people hit by trains, even if the risk of accidental injuries or fatalities still seems too high.

To be fair, there is currently a likelihood, from one or two documents I've seen, that the number of escalator injuries (including serious injuries) outweighs the risk of standing between said escalators and the platform edge...

 

[TBSchenker]

1A06 was followed in quick succession by GTR’s 1T11 0651 Kings Lynn / Ely – Kings Cross (387s) and then VTEC 1Y05 0525 Newcastle – Kings Cross (Class 91 and Mark IVs). Both of these trains passed at a lower speed (I would say between 40 and 50 mph) and both drivers gave

Could I suggest that if 1A06 was followed in quick succession, that the following trains were running on restrictive signal aspects (not green), so were in fact proceeding slower not because of the station but because of the signalling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that you mention it, on the rare occasions I’ve used Gatwick Airport’s station I can recall seeing people bunching up quite dangerously, and with bulky luggage.

That station must surely be ripe for redevelopment.

The problem with Gatwick Airport is nothing other than people being priced off the Gatwick Express. It needs returning to being a self contained service so there's near enough always a set waiting to board at Gatwick, and use a dedicated platform, and be the same price[1] as Southern and Thameslink rather than more expensive. That would seriously reduce the problems it causes there and on the SN trains with luggage. Some would still use Thameslink as it goes nearer where they're going, and that's fine, but it would reduce crowding.

[1] I mean publicised at the same price, not *that* argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Further to this point, passengers (at least commuters) waiting at a busy platform for a busy train make a trade off between standing back and maximising safety and standing as close as possible to where the door will stop and maximising their chance of a seat or place on the train close to the exit or similar.

Personally I stand just behind the yellow line lined up with where a door will be. That's the usual practice on the south WCML.

I am big and heavy enough that I have never even been slightly moved by turbulence from a passing train in that position.

 

[The Planner]

Could I suggest that if 1A06 was followed in quick succession, that the following trains were running on restrictive signal aspects (not green), so were in fact proceeding slower not because of the station but because of the signalling?

I would suggest is the answer, if they had green aspects I would fully expect them to be going faster.

 

[notverydeep]

Could I suggest that if 1A06 was followed in quick succession, that the following trains were running on restrictive signal aspects (not green), so were in fact proceeding slower not because of the station but because of the signalling?

Both trains had clear signals prior to their passage through the platform (the up slow has three aspect signals at this location). According to Real Time Trains the headway (to the nearest 15 seconds) between 1A06 and 1T11 was three minutes (08:57:15 to 09:00:15) and then between 1T11 and 1Y05 it was three and three quarter minutes (09:00:15 to 09:04:00).

Real Time Trains records a passing time at Hatfield for 1A06 at 08:59:15. This is beyond the point where the ‘starter’ at WGC can clear to green ahead and gives 1T11 at least 60 seconds of green signal before it passes the platform. Similarly, 1T11 has a passing time at Hatfield of 09:02:30 meaning that a green can be achieved at least 90 seconds ahead of 1Y05.

Yes, at Welwyn GC I don’t think there’s any passenger trains booked to run non-stop through platforms 2 or 3. However, there will of course be freight trains, plus ECS moves (mainly peak bounceback workings or stock running from/to Hornsey Depot) booked via the slow lines, or run on the slow lines at the discretion of the signallers. In essence it’s not-at-all uncommon for one reason or another.

Very few of these moves take place during the peak in the peak direction. This means that large numbers of regular commuters could go years without seeing them.

A railway worker's view of the situation is much more likely to be holistic, as our knowledge enables us to see the 'bigger picture' (to use a cliché). Passengers may well have more limited knowledge and we are not always that good at seeing the railway from their perspective. How many of the railway workers here (unless your part of the railway is selling tickets) have had this experience - a family member asks, "what ticket do I need for my trip to London?" and thought, "how should I know? I have a pass!"? I know I have. Risk assessments have to consider the passenger's restricted knowledge and experience...

This morning I discreetly paced the yellow line at WGC and at Blackfriars, my destination and rarely passed by non-stopping trains and certainly not at speed. The line appears to be about 20 cms further from the track at Blackfriars than at WGC...

 

[TBSchenker]

Both trains had clear signals prior to their passage through the platform (the up slow has three aspect signals at this location). According to Real Time Trains the headway (to the nearest 15 seconds) between 1A06 and 1T11 was three minutes (08:57:15 to 09:00:15) and then between 1T11 and 1Y05 it was three and three quarter minutes (09:00:15 to 09:04:00).

Real Time Trains records a passing time at Hatfield for 1A06 at 08:59:15. This is beyond the point where the ‘starter’ at WGC can clear to green ahead and gives 1T11 at least 60 seconds of green signal before it passes the platform. Similarly, 1T11 has a passing time at Hatfield of 09:02:30 meaning that a green can be achieved at least 90 seconds ahead of 1Y05.

Thanks for the info, I don’t know the area, just hypothesising.

Sometimes as a driver you can drive on greens not doing line speed if you can see the aspects changing in front of you, or if the previous signal was cautionary but your next is not in view.

Does the ECML have the infuriating ‘double blocking’ which holds two signals at danger approaching junctions or atations until the first red can be cleared to a proceed aspect, then as a driver you can go from Red to Double Yellow(or red to green on 3-aspect)?

There must be more to what was observed?

 

[notverydeep]

Thanks for the info, I don’t know the area, just hypothesising.

Sometimes as a driver you can drive on greens not doing line speed if you can see the aspects changing in front of you, or if the previous signal was cautionary but your next is not in view.

Does the ECML have the infuriating ‘double blocking’ which holds two signals at danger approaching junctions or atations until the first red can be cleared to a proceed aspect, then as a driver you can go from Red to Double Yellow(or red to green on 3-aspect)?

There must be more to what was observed?

I do not know whether the WGC 'starter' would be 'double blocked' as there is no way to see the signal in the rear from the platform, but it is on a straight and level section, so could probably be 'read through' further back than the previous signal from a point just south of Digswell (i.e. Welwyn) Viaduct and where the up slow diverges. The signal is a controlled signal, because it protects the junction ahead where up trains from platforms 3 and 4 join the up slow from the flyover (these are mostly trains to Moorgate or the peak slow service to King's Cross) and controls movements across the crossover after WGC from the up slow to the up fast. Thus it is sometimes possible to see this signal red, while the signal in advance (which can be seen from the platform) is green.

All the trains involved had previously been held up approaching Stevenage. This is because until shortly before they passed trains were being diverted via the Herford Loop and this is only accessible through the up slow platform (one) at Stevenage. 1A06 was first after the block was lifted to be allowed through the fast line platform (two) at Stevenage and take the normal route through WGC (albeit only on the up slow line through WGC and Hatfield) and so had a clear road ahead, so approached fast and stayed fast. 1T11 was on the slow line at Stevenage, appears to have been checked at Woolmer Green junction (from RTT times). This means that initially it would have been on restrictive signals but these would rapidly cleared as 1A06 (already at speed) covered more distance while it made a standing start.

It is possible that the member of staff on the platform at WGC and who observed 1A06 pass and did shout a warning to those nearby, requested that the two trains after 1A06 be cautioned, but they would have had little time to have done this between the passage of 1A06 and 1T11 and for control to have relayed the request to the driver of 1T11. Thus I am as convinced as I can be from the evidence that the driver of at least 1T11 had chosen to pass WGC at a lower speed (even if that of 1Y05 was cautioned). The speed 1T11 and 1Y05 passed was consistent with the speed I have seen occasional similar moves in the past, whereas the speed of 1A06 was something I had not previously seen through the up slow platform in 11 years of commuting and made enough of an impression to motivate me to start this thread!

 

[bramling]

I do not know whether the WGC 'starter' would be 'double blocked' as there is no way to see the signal in the rear from the platform, but it is on a straight and level section, so could probably be 'read through' further back than the previous signal from a point just south of Digswell (i.e. Welwyn) Viaduct and where the up slow diverges. The signal is a controlled signal, because it protects the junction ahead where up trains from platforms 3 and 4 join the up slow from the flyover (these are mostly trains to Moorgate or the peak slow service to King's Cross) and controls movements across the crossover after WGC from the up slow to the up fast. Thus it is sometimes possible to see this signal red, while the signal in advance (which can be seen from the platform) is green.

All the trains involved had previously been held up approaching Stevenage. This is because until shortly before they passed trains were being diverted via the Herford Loop and this is only accessible through the up slow platform (one) at Stevenage. 1A06 was first after the block was lifted to be allowed through the fast line platform (two) at Stevenage and take the normal route through WGC (albeit only on the up slow line through WGC and Hatfield) and so had a clear road ahead, so approached fast and stayed fast. 1T11 was on the slow line at Stevenage, appears to have been checked at Woolmer Green junction (from RTT times). This means that initially it would have been on restrictive signals but these would rapidly cleared as 1A06 (already at speed) covered more distance while it made a standing start.

It is possible that the member of staff on the platform at WGC and who observed 1A06 pass and did shout a warning to those nearby, requested that the two trains after 1A06 be cautioned, but they would have had little time to have done this between the passage of 1A06 and 1T11 and for control to have relayed the request to the driver of 1T11. Thus I am as convinced as I can be from the evidence that the driver of at least 1T11 had chosen to pass WGC at a lower speed (even if that of 1Y05 was cautioned). The speed 1T11 and 1Y05 passed was consistent with the speed I have seen occasional similar moves in the past, whereas the speed of 1A06 was something I had not previously seen through the up slow platform in 11 years of commuting and made enough of an impression to motivate me to start this thread!

All of what you say is possible, however I don't think there's enough to be able to conclusively say that's what happened. It's quite possible the slower trains had been running on restrictive signals, and were merely "hanging back" on the assumption it was very likely they would be catching up to another train in front soon - especially bear in mind the time of year when defensive driving is at its fore.

 

[notverydeep]

All of what you say is possible, however I don't think there's enough to be able to conclusively say that's what happened. It's quite possible the slower trains had been running on restrictive signals, and were merely "hanging back" on the assumption it was very likely they would be catching up to another train in front soon - especially bear in mind the time of year when defensive driving is at its fore.

Yes, I cannot be certain that the slower passage of 1T11 and 1Y05 was deliberate caution approaching a crowded platform, but at the time, it was 1A06 though that struck me as unusual rather than these two trains.

While their lower speed suited this situation, such self-regulation is often the bane of a train service planner's life, extending the reoccupation time through capacity constraints and gradually worsening service lateness. Which is why setting run times on ATO lines is so much more straightforward, even if they do have to have a leaf fall brake rate!

But that is probably a topic for another thread...

 

[Mintona]

I’m certain that no driver would ever drive more slowly than he or she had to due to taking an unusual routing via the slow lines. It would have been signals stepping up in front I imagine.

 

[Class 170101]

90mph for Gatwick, when they were doing the 377 110% overspeed tests for th commissioning during the night, Gatwick platforms 3/4 and 5/6 had to be closed to the public and confirmed to be clear before we were allowed to clear our signals for the tests.

Suprised the overspeed tests for 377s took place on Southern region at all. Surely the WCML would be much better for this being a 125mph railway?

 

[Ianno87]

I’m certain that no driver would ever drive more slowly than he or she had to due to taking an unusual routing via the slow lines. It would have been signals stepping up in front I imagine.

Some TOC professional driving policies do instruct drivers to approach red signals that they have not stopped at recently more cautiously than they would do 'normally'.