Diverted trains passing crowded platforms at speed

[notverydeep]

Does anyone on the forum know what guidance is given to the National Rail drivers of diverted trains about whether they should exercise caution passing crowded platforms?

I ask, because this morning, while waiting at Welwyn Garden City for a train delayed by the person under a train at Hatfield this morning, I observed 1A06 the late running 0640 Leeds – King’s Cross formed of a VTEC HST come through platform 2 (the up slow line) rather than its normal route on the up fast line (which does not have a platform at Welwyn Garden City). The train was powering and passed at what appeared to be near the line speed, which I understand to be 75 mph. The platform was crowded with passengers waiting for 2T93 07:20 Cambridge North to King’s Cross which was at the time showing an estimated time of only a couple of minutes after 1A06 passed (although in the event it would be another 10 minutes or so before it did arrive). The driver of 1A06 did not sound their horn at any stage approaching or passing the crowded platform.

1A06 was followed in quick succession by GTR’s 1T11 0651 Kings Lynn / Ely – Kings Cross (387s) and then VTEC 1Y05 0525 Newcastle – Kings Cross (Class 91 and Mark IVs). Both of these trains passed at a lower speed (I would say between 40 and 50 mph) and both drivers gave a long blast on the horn approaching the platform. Although I have seen non stopping trains (including VTEC) trains diverted to the up slow at Welwyn Garden City, it is infrequent and almost all sound their horn approaching the platform. In 11 years of commuting, I had never previously seen one pass at what I would judge to have been the 75 mph line speed, let alone do so when the platform was crowded.

Many of the waiting passengers, mostly regular commuters were, visibly taken aback by 1A06’s speed and many moved back as the front of the train reached them, although certainly those near me where already behind the yellow line. The Passenger Information System at Welwyn Garden City does run a “stand clear of the platform edge, the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station” in this situation and did in this case, but this seems a rather inadequate warning for such a passing speed, where this is a pretty unusual occurrence. Welwyn Garden City does not have the yellow, “High Speed Trains pass this platform…” signs that you see at locations where this is a frequent occurrence.

Having read several RAIB reports in recent years, highlighting the risk of turbulence from trains, even travelling at lower speeds, to passengers push chair and wheel chair users such as this report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-012017-wheelchair-contacting-a-train-at-twyford-station, this seems to me to have been a dangerous occurrence, although I accept it may well be within what is permitted. Even if so, given that the information system suggesting until shortly before 1A06’s passage that the passengers on the platform could reasonably expect the next service to be their train slowing to a stand, it does seem to me that passengers were not adequately prompted that the platform edge risk was greater in this situation and they should take action to make sure they were well clear and that drivers of diverted trains should be instructed to use their horns liberally in such a situation...

 

[swt_passenger]

The published rules do actually allow passenger trains to pass platforms at up to 125 mph without any special restrictions, if they meet design spec for width etc.
Also, the yellow line and warning signs are only required where either passing speeds of passenger trains exceed 100 mph, or freights exceed 60 mph.

The 2014 version of the rules are here: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GIRT7016 Iss 5.pdf

Part 9 refers.

 

[coppercapped]

Does anyone on the forum know what guidance is given to the National Rail drivers of diverted trains about whether they should exercise caution passing crowded platforms?

I ask, because this morning, while waiting at Welwyn Garden City for a train delayed by the person under a train at Hatfield this morning, I observed 1A06 the late running 0640 Leeds – King’s Cross formed of a VTEC HST come through platform 2 (the up slow line) rather than its normal route on the up fast line (which does not have a platform at Welwyn Garden City). The train was powering and passed at what appeared to be near the line speed, which I understand to be 75 mph. The platform was crowded with passengers waiting for 2T93 07:20 Cambridge North to King’s Cross which was at the time showing an estimated time of only a couple of minutes after 1A06 passed (although in the event it would be another 10 minutes or so before it did arrive). The driver of 1A06 did not sound their horn at any stage approaching or passing the crowded platform.

1A06 was followed in quick succession by GTR’s 1T11 0651 Kings Lynn / Ely – Kings Cross (387s) and then VTEC 1Y05 0525 Newcastle – Kings Cross (Class 91 and Mark IVs). Both of these trains passed at a lower speed (I would say between 40 and 50 mph) and both drivers gave a long blast on the horn approaching the platform. Although I have seen non stopping trains (including VTEC) trains diverted to the up slow at Welwyn Garden City, it is infrequent and almost all sound their horn approaching the platform. In 11 years of commuting, I had never previously seen one pass at what I would judge to have been the 75 mph line speed, let alone do so when the platform was crowded.

Many of the waiting passengers, mostly regular commuters were, visibly taken aback by 1A06’s speed and many moved back as the front of the train reached them, although certainly those near me where already behind the yellow line. The Passenger Information System at Welwyn Garden City does run a “stand clear of the platform edge, the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station” in this situation and did in this case, but this seems a rather inadequate warning for such a passing speed, where this is a pretty unusual occurrence. Welwyn Garden City does not have the yellow, “High Speed Trains pass this platform…” signs that you see at locations where this is a frequent occurrence.

Having read several RAIB reports in recent years, highlighting the risk of turbulence from trains, even travelling at lower speeds, to passengers push chair and wheel chair users such as this report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-012017-wheelchair-contacting-a-train-at-twyford-station, this seems to me to have been a dangerous occurrence, although I accept it may well be within what is permitted. Even if so, given that the information system suggesting until shortly before 1A06’s passage that the passengers on the platform could reasonably expect the next service to be their train slowing to a stand, it does seem to me that passengers were not adequately prompted that the platform edge risk was greater in this situation and they should take action to make sure they were well clear and that drivers of diverted trains should be instructed to use their horns liberally in such a situation...

Wimps!

Try the Down Main platform at Slough when a crowd of people has just disembarked from a Windsor train...

 

[Eccles1983]

Simple this.

Stay well away from the edge until the train has stopped.

As for blowing of horns - Not permitted unless the driver feels the requirement to do so, I have blown horns at idiot passengers encroaching the platform edge. It can be a double edged sword as it can startle people into doing silly things.

No foul here.

 

[GW43125]

Wimps!

Try the Down Main platform at Slough when a crowd of people has just disembarked from a Windsor train...

That can certainly be a tense moment, both for the poor sod at the front of the HST and the crowd coming off the Windsor...

 

[Darandio]

Threads like this crop up now and again, the most worrying thing is the need for people to be told to stand clear of a platform edge.

 

[GW43125]

Threads like this crop up now and again, the most worrying thing is the need for people to be told to stand clear of a platform edge.

This afternoon on my way home, I saw a tourist sitting on the platform dangerously close to the edge. If some empties had come through there'd have been a lot of soiled underwear...

 

[bramling]

Does anyone on the forum know what guidance is given to the National Rail drivers of diverted trains about whether they should exercise caution passing crowded platforms?

I ask, because this morning, while waiting at Welwyn Garden City for a train delayed by the person under a train at Hatfield this morning, I observed 1A06 the late running 0640 Leeds – King’s Cross formed of a VTEC HST come through platform 2 (the up slow line) rather than its normal route on the up fast line (which does not have a platform at Welwyn Garden City). The train was powering and passed at what appeared to be near the line speed, which I understand to be 75 mph. The platform was crowded with passengers waiting for 2T93 07:20 Cambridge North to King’s Cross which was at the time showing an estimated time of only a couple of minutes after 1A06 passed (although in the event it would be another 10 minutes or so before it did arrive). The driver of 1A06 did not sound their horn at any stage approaching or passing the crowded platform.

1A06 was followed in quick succession by GTR’s 1T11 0651 Kings Lynn / Ely – Kings Cross (387s) and then VTEC 1Y05 0525 Newcastle – Kings Cross (Class 91 and Mark IVs). Both of these trains passed at a lower speed (I would say between 40 and 50 mph) and both drivers gave a long blast on the horn approaching the platform. Although I have seen non stopping trains (including VTEC) trains diverted to the up slow at Welwyn Garden City, it is infrequent and almost all sound their horn approaching the platform. In 11 years of commuting, I had never previously seen one pass at what I would judge to have been the 75 mph line speed, let alone do so when the platform was crowded.

Many of the waiting passengers, mostly regular commuters were, visibly taken aback by 1A06’s speed and many moved back as the front of the train reached them, although certainly those near me where already behind the yellow line. The Passenger Information System at Welwyn Garden City does run a “stand clear of the platform edge, the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station” in this situation and did in this case, but this seems a rather inadequate warning for such a passing speed, where this is a pretty unusual occurrence. Welwyn Garden City does not have the yellow, “High Speed Trains pass this platform…” signs that you see at locations where this is a frequent occurrence.

Having read several RAIB reports in recent years, highlighting the risk of turbulence from trains, even travelling at lower speeds, to passengers push chair and wheel chair users such as this report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-012017-wheelchair-contacting-a-train-at-twyford-station, this seems to me to have been a dangerous occurrence, although I accept it may well be within what is permitted. Even if so, given that the information system suggesting until shortly before 1A06’s passage that the passengers on the platform could reasonably expect the next service to be their train slowing to a stand, it does seem to me that passengers were not adequately prompted that the platform edge risk was greater in this situation and they should take action to make sure they were well clear and that drivers of diverted trains should be instructed to use their horns liberally in such a situation...

Does anyone on the forum know what guidance is given to the National Rail drivers of diverted trains about whether they should exercise caution passing crowded platforms?

I ask, because this morning, while waiting at Welwyn Garden City for a train delayed by the person under a train at Hatfield this morning, I observed 1A06 the late running 0640 Leeds – King’s Cross formed of a VTEC HST come through platform 2 (the up slow line) rather than its normal route on the up fast line (which does not have a platform at Welwyn Garden City). The train was powering and passed at what appeared to be near the line speed, which I understand to be 75 mph. The platform was crowded with passengers waiting for 2T93 07:20 Cambridge North to King’s Cross which was at the time showing an estimated time of only a couple of minutes after 1A06 passed (although in the event it would be another 10 minutes or so before it did arrive). The driver of 1A06 did not sound their horn at any stage approaching or passing the crowded platform.

1A06 was followed in quick succession by GTR’s 1T11 0651 Kings Lynn / Ely – Kings Cross (387s) and then VTEC 1Y05 0525 Newcastle – Kings Cross (Class 91 and Mark IVs). Both of these trains passed at a lower speed (I would say between 40 and 50 mph) and both drivers gave a long blast on the horn approaching the platform. Although I have seen non stopping trains (including VTEC) trains diverted to the up slow at Welwyn Garden City, it is infrequent and almost all sound their horn approaching the platform. In 11 years of commuting, I had never previously seen one pass at what I would judge to have been the 75 mph line speed, let alone do so when the platform was crowded.

Many of the waiting passengers, mostly regular commuters were, visibly taken aback by 1A06’s speed and many moved back as the front of the train reached them, although certainly those near me where already behind the yellow line. The Passenger Information System at Welwyn Garden City does run a “stand clear of the platform edge, the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station” in this situation and did in this case, but this seems a rather inadequate warning for such a passing speed, where this is a pretty unusual occurrence. Welwyn Garden City does not have the yellow, “High Speed Trains pass this platform…” signs that you see at locations where this is a frequent occurrence.

Having read several RAIB reports in recent years, highlighting the risk of turbulence from trains, even travelling at lower speeds, to passengers push chair and wheel chair users such as this report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-012017-wheelchair-contacting-a-train-at-twyford-station, this seems to me to have been a dangerous occurrence, although I accept it may well be within what is permitted. Even if so, given that the information system suggesting until shortly before 1A06’s passage that the passengers on the platform could reasonably expect the next service to be their train slowing to a stand, it does seem to me that passengers were not adequately prompted that the platform edge risk was greater in this situation and they should take action to make sure they were well clear and that drivers of diverted trains should be instructed to use their horns liberally in such a situation...

The answer is none.

The driver may choose to sound a warning, but it's not required.

The only exception is if station staff make a request to the signaller, in which case it could theoretically be possible for one or more trains to be cautioned before approaching. This would generally only happen in extreme circumstances, as it could potentially cause quite a delay.

Ironically, it's more common on London Underground, where it's certainly not unheard of for station staff to make requests for trains to approach a particular platform at caution. It would happen for severe overcrowding, or if there's something going occurring on the platform - for example someone receiving medical treatment near the platform edge. As a minimum ATO working might be suspended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains run at full linespeed (125 I think) through occupied platforms at some WCML stations, e.g. MKC platforms 4 and 6.

 

[DarloRich]

This is nothing new and seems terribly hand wringing. Stand behind the yellow line.

 

[notverydeep]

The answer is none.

The driver may choose to sound a warning, but it's not required.

I rather suspected that there isn’t anything that required the driver of 1A06 to do anything differently. However, having attended a railway industry risk assessment course and regularly attending meetings that go through even minor passenger injuries in detail, I was struck the ‘Human Factors’ element of this situation. On the course I was taught that simply telling people (announcements and signs) what we want them to do is not enough. We (the industry) have to evaluate how people actually behave and take account of this in how we manage these risk and mitigate to a degree that is “reasonably practicable”. To me, sounding the horn approaching such a platform does seem reasonably practicable (and less likely to cause unintended consequences than leaving it until the train is actually passing). Clearly the drivers of 1T11 and 1Y05 did judge that it would reduce the risk to passengers on the platform. Additionally it would also be fairly practicable to use local announcements could be to emphasise that the passing train will be travelling at speed where this is not normally expected by passengers.

This does contrast with platforms where trains passing at speed are a normal everyday occurrence such as those at Welwyn North and probably those at Slough mentioned by coppercapped and countless others. People in these locations are much more likely to be expect fast trains to pass and mostly behave accordingly. I intended the thread to be specific about diverted trains at locations where trains passing at speed wouldn't be expected by passengers and platforms are crowded. What struck me this morning is passengers sense that they would have stood further back if they had known what was approaching.

Clearly all passengers would be well advised to stand well back at all times. The passengers here (at least those that I could see) were all standing behind the yellow line. And sensibly given the permitted speed, the yellow line is a lot further from the edge by comparison to those at the stations served by trains I am involved in planning, although these are locations where speeds tend to be lower and a non stopping train would definitely not be allowed to pass at speed if the platform was crowded!

 

[DarloRich]

I believe the rules should mandate an application of the horn when approaching an occupied platform.

 

[Bovverboy]

This is going slightly off the original topic, but there are obvious parallels. In the 1990s I competed in the London Marathon on two occasions, and on at least one of those occasions competitors were conveyed from one of the London terminal stations to a station close to the race starting point (at no cost to the competitors themselves, but presumably at cost to the race organisers). This was on a train provided solely for the use of the race competitors, it wasn't a public train.
The train having been provided purely for the use of race competitors, everyone of course alighted at the intended station. This was a suburban station with not particularly wide platforms (I suspect on a par with the narrowest which would exist nowadays), yet as soon as everyone had alighted the train accelerated away, at what I presumed to be maximum acceleration. The platform was jam-packed with the alighted passengers, and had anyone stumbled the result could have been catastrophic. It seemed to me to be totally un-railwaylike, and I have never forgotten it. I don't recall there having been any yellow lines in evidence, and, indeed, I suspect that this was at a time prior to such things becoming commonplace.

 

[bramling]

I believe the rules should mandate an application of the horn when approaching an occupied platform.

London Underground do, although the extent to which this happens in practice is indifferent.

I guess the difficulty with doing it on the mainline is we introduce a situation where if a driver *doesn't* do it and something happens, there could potentially be some comeback on that driver. Meanwhile, if every train passing a platform without stopping sounds a warning, sooner or later complaints would start arising from local residents and the like.

Presumably the industry feels that mitigations like yellow lines and warning signage are sufficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is going slightly off the original topic, but there are obvious parallels. In the 1990s I competed in the London Marathon on two occasions, and on at least one of those occasions competitors were conveyed from one of the London terminal stations to a station close to the race starting point (at no cost to the competitors themselves, but presumably at cost to the race organisers). This was on a train provided solely for the use of the race competitors, it wasn't a public train.
The train having been provided purely for the use of race competitors, everyone of course alighted at the intended station. This was a suburban station with not particularly wide platforms (I suspect on a par with the narrowest which would exist nowadays), yet as soon as everyone had alighted the train accelerated away, at what I presumed to be maximum acceleration. The platform was jam-packed with the alighted passengers, and had anyone stumbled the result could have been catastrophic. It seemed to me to be totally un-railwaylike, and I have never forgotten it. I don't recall there having been any yellow lines in evidence, and, indeed, I suspect that this was at a time prior to such things becoming commonplace.

Now go to Bank in the rush hour. It still is commonplace.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've gone belting through all the slow line stations to Surbiton at up to 90 mph with them all standing right on the platform edge, they soon move when you have the horns of a 444/450 on full bifters as you enter the platforms.

It's quite fun in the AM peak doing it with a few sets of ECS we have which are booked DSL, whacking through Clapham on the DS at 50 is quite interesting when one or two of the clowns stick their noggin over the edge as you pass!

 

[Cowley]

I've gone belting through all the slow line stations to Surbiton at up to 90 mph with them all standing right on the platform edge, they soon move when you have the horns of a 444/450 on full bifters as you enter the platforms.

It's quite fun in the AM peak doing it with a few sets of ECS we have which are booked DSL, whacking through Clapham on the DS at 50 is quite interesting when one or two of the clowns stick their noggin over the edge as you pass!

In a situation like that Harley Davidson do you find yourself gritting your teeth and holding your breath as you race through or are you a picture of relaxed serenity?
I’m just thinking about how I feel driving down a narrow road in a van that has mirrors set at pedestrian chin height, I do slow down (honest), but you don’t have much choice in the matter.

 

[SPADTrap]

Taken back by a train passing? They really ARE stupid... ECS regularly run through P3 at WGC at line speed, as does freight, it is nothing new. The same logic applies recklessly to trespassing after you think the 'last train has gone'.

I pass through sometimes busy platforms at 125MPH and a little blast of the horn before I reach the ramp usually alerts the sleepy/distracted wanderers/phone callers, if that doesn't then the screaming engine usually does!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

In a situation like that Harley Davidson do you find yourself gritting your teeth and holding your breath as you race through or are you a picture of relaxed serenity?
I’m just thinking about how I feel driving down a narrow road in a van that has mirrors set at pedestrian chin height, I do slow down (honest), but you don’t have much choice in the matter.

In a situation like that Harley Davidson do you find yourself gritting your teeth and holding your breath as you race through or are you a picture of relaxed serenity?
I’m just thinking about how I feel driving down a narrow road in a van that has mirrors set at pedestrian chin height, I do slow down (honest), but you don’t have much choice in the matter.

It doesn't faze me in the slightest, been driving too long for that. It's even more fun when it has been dry for a long period, because it leaves them in a trail of dust and trash! (Warped SoH).

 

[Cowley]

It doesn't faze me in the slightest, been driving too long for that. It's even more fun when it has been dry for a long period, because it leaves them in a trail of dust and trash! (Warped SoH).

Like it.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage has passing trains at 125mph - as per other examples above. The evening peak regularly sees 12-Car trains tip out on platform 4 while a VTEC passes on platform 3 at full speed.

The staircases at Stevenage are quite narrow and a bottleneck builds up at the bottom of them across both platform 3 and 4.

 

[Bromley boy]

I believe the rules should mandate an application of the horn when approaching an occupied platform.

I can see a couple of problems with this idea.

In the south east, where dozens of non stop services per hour run through suburban stations, you’d be hearing horns constantly and they would soon cease to have any meaning (or any effect on passenger behaviour).

How do you define “occupied”? There may be someone on the platform out of sight of the driver, obscured by platform furniture. You’d end up having to blow up for every station “just in case”.

If people would only use some common sense and remain behind the yellow line this wouldn’t be an issue (and to be fair it isn’t an issue for the vast majority of passengers).

On the other hand I frequently use the horn if I’ve been given a not to call order and am passing through a station at speed I was previously booked to call at. The difference here is that people will assume I’m stopping so there’s altogether more risk, particularly as the platform displays may not be updated and will indicate a service has “arrived” just before it comes hammering through the platform at line speed.

Once again this is down to the driver’s discretion and there is absolutely no obligation to do so unless it is perceived that someone is too close to the edge.

 

[GW43125]

Stevenage has passing trains at 125mph - as per other examples above. The evening peak regularly sees 12-Car trains tip out on platform 4 while a VTEC passes on platform 3 at full speed.

The staircases at Stevenage are quite narrow and a bottleneck builds up at the bottom of them across both platform 3 and 4.

Nuneaton is pretty poor in that respect too. I was on a charter which had a half hour wait in platform 2, so everyone spilled out onto the P2/3 island for photos, and some were frighteningly close to the edge as a 390 barrelled through at 125.

 

[philjo]

This morning at Finsbury Park there were constant announcements warning passengers on platform 7 that they were standing too close to the edge and should get back behind the yellow line. I didn't see many people move back, but there was a a large crowd, many of them were schoolchildren.
the whole island platform was full of passengers waiting for a northbound service due to the disruption.

 

[Adlington]

And here (a) the platform was virtually empty (b) the buggy was as far from the platform edge as possible....

 

[Starmill]

The risk of fast trains passing crowded platforms with no warning is huge by comparison with (for example) the risk of having slightly less than the required 3m clearance between the platform and an overhead live wire. However, the ORR doesn't seem at all concerned about the former and is very very concerned about the latter.

There are lots of stations near me where trains pass at 75mph and there is no yellow line and no warning of fast trains by signs, screens or announcements. The platforms are old and narrow and freight trains especially do cause significant air currents. Doesn't affect me because I'm aware of it but other people are often caught out or shocked.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I believe the rules should mandate an application of the horn when approaching an occupied platform.

Horn only needs to be sounded when the driver thinks it's justified or when specified by the presence of a W board (0700-2300) outside of those hours in emergency.

 

[Adlington]

The risk of fast trains passing crowded platforms with no warning is huge by comparison with (for example) the risk of having slightly less than the required 3m clearance between the platform and an overhead live wire. However, the ORR doesn't seem at all concerned about the former and is very very concerned about the latter.

I guess that's because it's simpler to raise the live wire than ensure that platforms are not overcrowded and/or some idiot/ignoramus doesn't stand at the platform edge.

 

[Starmill]

I would say it's far, far more difficult and expensive to electrify railways with higher wires than it is to have automatic announcements that warn of passing trains.

 

[380101]

Horn only needs to be sounded when the driver thinks it's justified or when specified by the presence of a W board (0700-2300) outside of those hours in emergency.

It's 0600 - 2359 now for Whistle boards. Changed over a year ago now.