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Tram Penalty

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Clip

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To me, this poster reads like the maximum Oyster fare is the penalty for not touching in twice. There's nothing more to the poster in fact.



I agree with this idea - after all bus stops don't have Oyster readers.

But a bus only has one entrance bar the boris buses and are not trams.
 

Jaybee111

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So my appeal was denied. Generic response saying that we are not accusing you of deliberate fare evasion - the penalty was for not paying for my journey. Of course from my point of view, what I paid for was the wrong journey. Can't help but feel very angry about this. Anyway I will go to the next round of appeals.
 

furlong

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If they say they aren't accusing you of deliberate evasion, then that means they have accepted that their signage is inadequate, which gives another reason to uphold an appeal!
 

furlong

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I visited the station recently and believe the signage is indeed woefully inadequate. If you read all the notices at the station, you are actually required to touch TWO tram Oyster readers on the platform not one, while the posters at the top of the stairs make it optional, saying merely you'll be charged a maximum fare if you don't. I observed many people touching various sequences of readers, but they all knew exactly what to do - I didn't see anyone pausing to read the instructions, and when it's busy, you don't even notice the low-level readers as other people hide them from view. There's only a tiny blue notice saying it's a compulsory ticket area and that might breach the rules too.
 

Jaybee111

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I visited the station recently and believe the signage is indeed woefully inadequate. If you read all the notices at the station, you are actually required to touch TWO Oyster readers not one, while the posters at the top of the stairs make it optional, saying merely you'll be charged a maximum fare if you don't. I observed many people touching various sequences of readers, but they all knew exactly what to do - I didn't see anyone pausing to read the instructions, and when it's busy, you don't even notice the low-level readers as other people hide them from view. There's only a tiny blue notice saying it's a compulsory ticket area and that might breach the rules too.
Thank you for the messages. The problem is trying to persuade the relevant people of that especially when from their point of view there is no reason to admit there is anything wrong because all they do is collect the money.<(
 

Antman

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Thank you for the messages. The problem is trying to persuade the relevant people of that especially when from their point of view there is no reason to admit there is anything wrong because all they do is collect the money.<(

Absolutely, this really is daylight robbery!
 

londonbridge

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you are actually required to touch TWO tram Oyster readers on the platform not one

Since when??? If I've arrived at Wimbledon by foot I touch once on the external gateline and then once on the tram platform reader. If I've arrived by tube or National Rail I walk to the tram platform and touch once on the reader. Where do you get touching two tram readers on the platform from?? :s
 

furlong

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Where do you get touching two tram readers on the platform from?? :s

There are two tram readers and the small print on each of them says you must use it. It doesn't say that if you already used the first one you can ignore the second one.
 

Clip

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There are two tram readers and the small print on each of them says you must use it. It doesn't say that if you already used the first one you can ignore the second one.

No offence here but that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read - no one in their right mind would think that they have to touch both of them - I know you are trying to help but come on that's properly clutching at straws
 

MikeWh

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There are two tram readers and the small print on each of them says you must use it. It doesn't say that if you already used the first one you can ignore the second one.
Well there are actually three now, one near the new platform 10b and two next to platform 10a, however
No offence here but that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read - no one in their right mind would think that they have to touch both of them - I know you are trying to help but come on that's properly clutching at straws
I have to agree with this. If it were true, people at Stratford switching from paper to Oyster would have to go around several platforms to take in every one of the 8+ Oyster validators.
 

Darandio

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Since when??? If I've arrived at Wimbledon by foot I touch once on the external gateline and then once on the tram platform reader. If I've arrived by tube or National Rail I walk to the tram platform and touch once on the reader. Where do you get touching two tram readers on the platform from?? :s

Cluelessness. This, along with the regular posting of false hope in various D&P threads could be quite damaging to anyone looking for genuine advice.
 

furlong

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But that's the same reasoning that says because you already touched in upstairs, you don't need to touch in again on the platform. It's only by reading the text on each reader you pass that you find out otherwise - and both of them instruct you to touch them if using the tram even if you already touched another reader. Also, I saw a lot of people touching on two readers - both the national rail one and the tram one - thinking they were touching out from one then touching in on the other I presume.
 

furlong

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If it were true, people at Stratford switching from paper to Oyster would have to go around several platforms to take in every one of the 8+ Oyster validators.
What's Stratford got do with this? I highly doubt that those readers bear the same small print as the Wimbledon tram ones.
 

Clip

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What's Stratford got do with this? I highly doubt that those readers bear the same small print as the Wimbledon tram ones.


Im at west croydon and therea two on platform 3 that sayvyou must touch in and out on them are you saying i should do this because they say so?
 

PeterC

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No offence here but that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read - no one in their right mind would think that they have to touch both of them - I know you are trying to help but come on that's properly clutching at straws
Don't underestimate the ability of the public to get things wrong.
 

Clip

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Don't underestimate the ability of the public to get things wrong.
I generally dont but the signage at the station entrance and all over the tram system states what to do and having 3 oyster readers there doesnt imply you have to touxh on them all.
 

furlong

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I really don't think your logic is correct here?

They both say you "must" use "this" reader "even if you have touched in previously at this station" - no exceptions. So people think it's OK to ignore that in one case and not the other because they know it doesn't mean what it says? Even though ignoring it can seemingly lead to a Penalty Fare?
 

island

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I think the interpretation that you must touch multiple readers on the platform is patently absurd.
 

PeterC

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I think the interpretation that you must touch multiple readers on the platform is patently absurd.
It is to anybody with an in depth knowledge of the Oyster system. Considering how many people I have seen using yellow platform readers unnecessarily at other stations I wouldn't extend that to all of the general public.

Of more concern is the traveller who thinks that they understand the system and so believe it unecessary to pay any attention to the platform readers as they *know* that they have legitimately touched in.
 

Realfish

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It is to anybody with an in depth knowledge of the Oyster system. Considering how many people I have seen using yellow platform readers unnecessarily at other stations I wouldn't extend that to all of the general public.

Of more concern is the traveller who thinks that they understand the system and so believe it unecessary to pay any attention to the platform readers as they *know* that they have legitimately touched in.

Exactly so. Not familiar with the stations, I nearly came to grief with a RPI at Blackfriars a few months back who accused me of not tapping in - his hand held machine confirmed it. I argued that I had and fortunately he lost interest. I had travelled from Kings Cross on the H&C to Farringdon, saw a yellow reader, at the foot of the stairs as I left the TfL platform so tapped out, then tapped back in again on the southbound Thameslink platform. After our 'discussion' I tapped out at Blackfriars. My Oyster history showed; Tapped in - Kings Cross St P; Tapped out Farringdon; Tapped out Farringdon; Tapped out Blackfriars. The correct fare was deducted for the whole journey. I think I was lucky that the RPI had better things to do, if he hadn't...?
 

MikeWh

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Exactly so. Not familiar with the stations, I nearly came to grief with a RPI at Blackfriars a few months back who accused me of not tapping in - his hand held machine confirmed it. I argued that I had and fortunately he lost interest. I had travelled from Kings Cross on the H&C to Farringdon, saw a yellow reader, at the foot of the stairs as I left the TfL platform so tapped out, then tapped back in again on the southbound Thameslink platform. After our 'discussion' I tapped out at Blackfriars. My Oyster history showed; Tapped in - Kings Cross St P; Tapped out Farringdon; Tapped out Farringdon; Tapped out Blackfriars. The correct fare was deducted for the whole journey. I think I was lucky that the RPI had better things to do, if he hadn't...?
The validators at Farringdon are set to continuation exit. This means that you'd have to wait 15 minutes before touching another one would produce an entry. However it does keep the journey open, so as you discovered it closed it properly at Blackfriars. The RPI should have been able to detect this.

Had your second touch at Farringdon recorded an entry you'd have been charged for two journeys.
 

Mag_seven

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I think the interpretation that you must touch multiple readers on the platform is patently absurd.

Agreed - happened to be at Wimbledon yesterday and the words on the "tram readers" were along the lines of "you must also touch on this machine in order to be charged the correct fare". I do not take that to mean you must touch "every" machine with those words on it.
 

Jaybee111

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Guys! Great news! 4 months after submitting my third and final appeal the Independent Appeals board has granted it. Honestly, I had assumed that they had just lost the letter and I had given up.

Anyway, the key paragraph reads "We understand how this situation arose and we are prepared to show discretion and allow [Jaybee111]'s appeal - on this occasion. We trust she is now aware of arrangements regarding tram travel at Wimbledon, and the need to heed season ticket expiry dates, so this situation can be avoided in future. No further action is required."

Thanks so much for help received. Just one more question - they say no further action is necessary, but I actually paid the fine. Will it be automatically refunded or do I need to get in touch with anyone?
 

iamant

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Hi,

I have got penally for the same issue at Wimbledon station - I was following your thread since March 2018 and glad to hear that you have succeed!
I am traveling from Wimbledon to Croydon for the first time and had missed to touch two time before proceed into tram, unknowkingly that it is a specific action needed for only Wimbledon station.

I was in UK for a period of time - and now back to my country and had to appeal via air-mail from here to defense my right.

If you don't mind, can I mention your case in my appeal, just for proving the fact that I am not the only one missing to know that at Wimbledon station there are these rules for touch in 2 times and the signed they put flat on the side of the wall are inadequate.

I have only received my response for my 1st appeal today - and of course, rejected.

Anyhow, does anyhow in the case that I lost, how I could pay the penalty from Asia country?

Thanks in advance and sorry for my English :)

Guys! Great news! 4 months after submitting my third and final appeal the Independent Appeals board has granted it. Honestly, I had assumed that they had just lost the letter and I had given up.

Anyway, the key paragraph reads "We understand how this situation arose and we are prepared to show discretion and allow [Jaybee111]'s appeal - on this occasion. We trust she is now aware of arrangements regarding tram travel at Wimbledon, and the need to heed season ticket expiry dates, so this situation can be avoided in future. No further action is required."

Thanks so much for help received. Just one more question - they say no further action is necessary, but I actually paid the fine. Will it be automatically refunded or do I need to get in touch with anyone?
 

Jaybee111

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Hi,

I have got penally for the same issue at Wimbledon station - I was following your thread since March 2018 and glad to hear that you have succeed!
I am traveling from Wimbledon to Croydon for the first time and had missed to touch two time before proceed into tram, unknowkingly that it is a specific action needed for only Wimbledon station.

I was in UK for a period of time - and now back to my country and had to appeal via air-mail from here to defense my right.

If you don't mind, can I mention your case in my appeal, just for proving the fact that I am not the only one missing to know that at Wimbledon station there are these rules for touch in 2 times and the signed they put flat on the side of the wall are inadequate.

I have only received my response for my 1st appeal today - and of course, rejected.

Anyhow, does anyhow in the case that I lost, how I could pay the penalty from Asia country?

Thanks in advance and sorry for my English :)
Hello. I sent you a PM
 

furlong

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Anyway, the key paragraph reads "We understand how this situation arose and we are prepared to show discretion and allow [Jaybee111]'s appeal - on this occasion. We trust she is now aware of arrangements regarding tram travel at Wimbledon, and the need to heed season ticket expiry dates, so this situation can be avoided in future. No further action is required."

"we are prepared to show discretion" ? Just how independent is this appeals body? If you've still got any energy left, try pushing for the scheme to be partially suspended (and for anyone else issued a penalty under similar circumstances to be refunded) until such time as the signage is improved (or their obscure requirement for two touches is removed). (The appeal win might make a good story in the Evening Standard or Metro, who could quiz the scheme operator about the inadequate signage.)
 
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