Coventry to Leicester direct - but how?

[alistairlees]

Oxford to Nottingham has been tried before and could never be pathed at a decent journey time. I still don't understand why people are suggesting crossing Nuneaton on the flat, you would never do it.

I think the suggestion is a new chord avoiding Nuneaton and passing under the WCML, not going across Nuneaton station throat, with the added time penalty and WCML performance risk.

 

[alistairlees]

I imagine any such service would stop at Narborough and Hinckley, and probably South Wigston even if it was to avoid Nuneaton. Both Hinckley and Narborough are in need of, and are campaigning for extra services. Narborough is actually the station between Nuneaton and Leicester with the highest usage figures, and quite frankly has been neglected for far too long.

That would make the journey too long and unattractive. Inserting stops to please everyone pleases no-one in the end. In any case there should be more services between Leicester and Birmingham (I know there are capacity issues at Birmingham) with one of those picking these up. The whole thing needs to be part of a strategic plan, assessed on objective criteria. Not that we have one.

 

[alistairlees]

I completely agree. Unfortunately, there are quite a number of examples of this across the country where the railway is either a terrible option or just not really an option at all.... After much consideration I couldn't think of any other places as large or as close as Leicester and Coventry.

I agree with most in your list. The Midlands is particularly badly served as a result of legacy networks and no real focus on opening up new passenger opportunities (part of which is made worse by a few line closures). There's been a huge amount of growth in some towns too, yet what has the railway done? Bugger all.

Anyway, here's a list of my top ones in the area (population figures from Wikipedia for the towns, not the boroughs, where possible; distances are a straight line from Google)

Northampton (225,000) to Leicester (329,000) - 29 miles
Northampton to Bedford (80,000) - 20 miles; and Luton (216,000) - 32 miles
Northampton to Oxford (150,000) - 32 miles

I'm not obsessed with Northampton or anything, it just happens to be in the middle of a poor area of connectivity, that is at the same time a well-populated and growing area.

You could string a few of these together, to make Nottingham to Northampton / Milton Keynes / Oxford, or Coventry to Bedford / Luton, for instance. I know there are capacity issues, but I'm just saying that if you were thinking strategically and trying to connect obvious markets, this is what you would be doing.

 

[Class 170101]

While I think Coventry-Leicester is a pretty strong local flow (definitely for the student/education market) I could see it being popular for some longer distance flows.

For example, puts Coventry one change from Loughborough and Nottingham - a good student flow (without having to go via New St), and similarly Leicester one change from Oxford/Reading. Both probably faster than via New St, assuming half decent connections.

Coventry is already only change to Nottingham - via Birmingham New Street.

 

[alistairlees]

Coventry is already only change to Nottingham - via Birmingham New Street.

That's exactly my point:
- Coventry to Nottingham via Birmingham NS / Derby - 76 miles / 91 to 121 minutes with either one or two changes (the quickest journeys have two changes) on Monday morning / late afternoon
- Coventry to Nottingham in a straight line - 41 miles
- Coventry to Nottingham via "Nuneaton avoiding curve" and Leicester - 55 miles / ~60 minutes, no change (with the suggested through service again)
- Coventry to Nottingham by car (M69 / M1) - 52 miles / 60 to 100 minutes (at rush hour)

This makes it even more obvious than I had realised that this is needed. The quickest current rail journeys are actually the ones via Nuneaton / Leicester (rather than via Birmingham / Derby), but two changes and a combination of stopping services with class 153s and 156s are hardly going to get potential customers out of cars, are they?

 

[Starmill]

It isn't really government policy to encourage people not to use cars, or to reduce urban air pollution, to reduce transport sector carbon emissions or to improve access to employment and education in urban areas though, is it? They talk about the need to deal with these things but have done next to nothing. Instead, it is government policy to maximize rail industry costs covered by fares revenue, which this probably wouldn't achieve in the short term.

Even if capital were available for a project like this (it's not), these aims (which almost everyone agrees are good uses of money) are weighted very lowly in most business cases.

 

[thenorthern]

For a time there were Coventry to Skegness trains which I think reversed at Nuneaton, I think those trains stopped in 2004. Central Trains used to run an lot of trains between odd destinations.

Given though that since then the amount of trains passing through Nuneaton has dramatically increased of which very few call the prospect of trains reversing there is now not really an option.

 

[Class172]

Kidderminster to Bromsgrove

Personally I don't think the rail link between them is too bad. It does require a change at Droitwich, but the connections are such that the journey between Kidderminster and Bromsgrove can be done in around 35 minutes, which I think is comparable to the bus and not much slower than driving at just under half an hour.

Worcester to Cheltenham and Gloucester (direct trains but only 2-hourly??)

This one I certainly agree with, the infrequent service discourages users despite there being a commuter flow along the Worcester-Tewkesbury-Cheltenham axis.

Nonetheless, as you say, the sizes of these places are insignificant in comparison to Coventry and Leicester.

 

[Starmill]

On Weekdays, Kidderminster to Bromsgrove takes 55 minutes, except at 0648, 0804, 0834, 0920, 1814, and 1920, when it takes between 26 and 38 minutes.

 

[Class172]

On Weekdays, Kidderminster to Bromsgrove takes 55 minutes, except at 0648, 0804, 0834, 0920, 1814, and 1920, when it takes between 26 and 38 minutes.

Depends how close you like your connections - ignoring the official connection times allows the use of the xx30 arrival from Kidderminster, then the xx33 service to Bromsgrove. Small delays to the inbound service don't tend to cause problems because the the trains are conflicting moves at the junction north of the station, and by then the route will be set for the arriving Kidderminster service.

 

[Class 170101]

This one I certainly agree with, the infrequent service discourages users despite there being a commuter flow along the Worcester-Tewkesbury-Cheltenham axis.

This one could be eased on an hourly basis by extending the London / Swindon to Cheltenham service to Worcester.

 

[Starmill]

It would also have been relatively easy to extend one of the LM services terminating at Worcester Shrub Hill through to Gloucester, but for whatever reason the winning West Midlands fanchise bid did not propose it.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Weren't shuttles to plug the existing service gaps between Gloucester and Worcester done a few years ago and lasted for less than 18 months on account of loadings? I think it was LM who tried it but it could have been FGW (as was then).

 

[Starmill]

I seem to remember it was toward the start of the LM franchise that they did it. I don't really know anything about it, but I had heard that it was because they thought the rolling stock would be better used on routes suffering from serious overcrowding rather than because the loadings were disappointing.

As I say though, I don't really know.

 

[Class172]

I seem to remember it was toward the start of the LM franchise that they did it. I don't really know anything about it, but I had heard that it was because they thought the rolling stock would be better used on routes suffering from serious overcrowding rather than because the loadings were disappointing.

As I say though, I don't really know.

If I recall, patronage was never as good as it could have been because the it didn't compliment the FGW service to give 1tph. I don't know the timings but I'm sure it gave a lop-sided timetable.

 

[Ianno87]

Coventry is already only change to Nottingham - via Birmingham New Street.

Hence why I said "without going via New St".

 

[xotGD]

Cov to Leics direct would open up the opportunity for longer distance regional express type services such as Oxford to Norwich (or even to Cambridge - but I doubt many passengers would take this throughout). This could alternate with Cov - Nottm trains.

 

[whhistle]

I don't know if it is what is envisaged, or where the funding would come from, but I have often thought that a city to city link from Leicester to Coventry, utilising this trackbed (you can see it from the WCML) would be very useful. No need to stop at the little stations, just do Coventry - Hinckley - Leicester.

I don't know where they got the bit about closing in 2004 because of WCML modernisation though. It was certainly gone by the mid 70s, probably earlier.

No it wasn't?
There used to be a Leicester - Nuneaton - Bedworth - Coventry, but that was lost when they build the Leics - BHM flyover. I'd like to think they left a connection to the "mainline" but I don't know.

But why stop at Leics - Hinckley - Cov?
There are slightly more passengers from Narborough than Hinckley, and even more from Nuneaton (although how many of those use the Leics - BHM line I don't know).

Stopping pattern would likely be Leics - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Coventry.
This would then satisfy locals in Narborough who have raised issues with over crowding at certain times of day. South Wigston only sees a train every couple of hours anyway so perhaps the odd one stopping there, but unlikely.

 

[edwin_m]

No it wasn't?
There used to be a Leicester - Nuneaton - Bedworth - Coventry, but that was lost when they build the Leics - BHM flyover. I'd like to think they left a connection to the "mainline" but I don't know.

I think the previous post was referring to the direct link between Leicester and Coventry lines, diving under the WCML, that closed some time ago. The previous passenger service didn't used it, as it had gone by then and would have avoided Nuneaton station anyway.

 

[8H]

Just looked at a satellite view of the dive under and it appears to be an unblocked route at least.

 

[nuneatonmark]

This is a good idea but I cannot see it happening in the next 20 years. If it were to happen it would be completely stupid to miss Nuneaton out and I am pretty sure any TOC would insist it served Nuneaton. The Coventry - Nuneaton - Leicester - Nottingham corridor has loads of potential and the Central trains service from Cov to Nottingham was very well used, it would be even better used now. It seems like a relatively simple infrastructure implementation, as easy as the new chord they put in linking the WCML to the Brum/Leicester line north of Nuneaton station BUT if they were to use the old dive under the WCML which linked the Cov line to the Leicester line I understand that this suffered from flooding very often so they would have to solve that issue, maybe in this day and age that might not be a problem but potentially sounds costly. As someone else has said, due to the new chord north of Nuneaton it's possible to do this now by reversing north of Nuneaton, but that would be very time consuming. That would be an interesting service though, would it stop at Platform 1 or Platform 7 or both!!! Can't ever see it happening though! Have any 'non-standard' services ever done this to get from Cov line to Leicester line?

 

[D365]

Cambridge to Bedford (I think there's an express bus?)

"Express" is stretching it a bit

 

[Mugby]

de-Courcey travel operate an express bus service from Leicester to Coventry which is hourly on weekdays and has a journey time of 75 minutes. It's been running for a good few years so the market must be there.

Also, unrelated, but towards the end of the 1990s, Stagecoach United Counties operated an express service, X60/X61 Nottingham - Leicester - Oxford, using the name 'Coachlinks' but with an end to end journey time of 4 hours, it perhaps wasn't too attractive.

 

[alistairlees]

If it were to happen it would be completely stupid to miss Nuneaton out and I am pretty sure any TOC would insist it served Nuneaton.

No, it would be an excellent idea to miss out Nuneaton. I don't have anything against Nuneaton. It's just that avoiding Nuneaton would provide a far better service from Coventry to Leicester and be much quicker. Coventry to Nuneaton can be quite happily served by the stopper between the two. And Leicester to Nuneaton by the Leicester to Birmingham service.

If Nuneaton didn't require reversal at an awkward location to cross the WCML, and the subsequent time penalty, then it might be an ok idea.

if they were to use the old dive under the WCML which linked the Cov line to the Leicester line I understand that this suffered from flooding very often so they would have to solve that issue, maybe in this day and age that might not be a problem but potentially sounds costly.

Yes, that would need to be dealt with. It looks like it might be prone to flooding from the WCML.

Please see the excellent Warwickshire Railways website for some plans of the area. It looks like the chord was out in the 1860s, only to be removed in about 1891 at one end in order to provide a connection to a mill. After that it was used for access to the loco shed until closure of that in the 1960s. But this site gives a good idea of the route, and comparison with Google maps shows it's still available.

 

[alistairlees]

Stopping pattern would likely be Leics - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Coventry. This would then satisfy locals in Narborough who have raised issues with over crowding at certain times of day. South Wigston only sees a train every couple of hours anyway so perhaps the odd one stopping there, but unlikely.

This would just get us back to a deeply unattractive and non-competitive service between two major cities of Coventry and Leicester. The whole point is to make it as successful as possible. The locals of Narborough can be satisfied by some other stopping service.

 

[Qwerty133]

This would just get us back to a deeply unattractive and non-competitive service between two major cities of Coventry and Leicester. The whole point is to make it as successful as possible. The locals of Narborough can be satisfied by some other stopping service.

You seem to have the attitude of a certain former British Rail leader whose actions towards Narborough station were heavily criticised in parliament by the local tory MP during the 1960s. I'm not exactly sure what additional local stopping service you think is a possibility especially if these proposals ever get anywhere as the line doesn't really have the capacity for 4 services in each direction per hour as well as regular freight, especially with road traffic needing to pass the level crossing at Narborough (queues already get as far as the b4114 with some regularity).

 

[Starmill]

Don't let me interfere, but it's fairly pointless arguing about whether a service that doesn't exist and is very unlikely to any time soon ought to stop in a Leicestershire village

 

[whhistle]

This would just get us back to a deeply unattractive and non-competitive service between two major cities of Coventry and Leicester. The whole point is to make it as successful as possible. The locals of Narborough can be satisfied by some other stopping service.

I'm not sure what your obsession is with getting between Coventry and Leicester as quick as possible, stopping only at (and randomly) Hinckley, where passenger numbers are only second from bottom on that line. That's not how railways work. You have to look at the sensible options (which usually means passenger numbers) - in this case, it would be better missing out Hinckley and stopping only at Narborough.

... and has already been said, there is no "other stopping service" that can be used.

 

[HowardGWR]

I started this thread on the basis of an infrastructure issue. Coventry and Leicester are cities, so one would think that, if the line were re-joined, an inter-city service would be justified, not one that would stop at every farmyard. If a stopping service would also be justified, and I am sure it might well be, and that were not possible because of the freights, then that justifies quadrupling on the section where the freights run, or long loops.
Again, an infrastructure issue.

 

[Qwerty133]

I started this thread on the basis of an infrastructure issue. Coventry and Leicester are cities, so one would think that, if the line were re-joined, an inter-city service would be justified, not one that would stop at every farmyard. If a stopping service would also be justified, and I am sure it might well be, and that were not possible because of the freights, then that justifies quadrupling on the section where the freights run, or long loops.
Again, an infrastructure issue.

The capacity issues would mainly be at a level crossing at which there really isn't room to build a bridge for road traffic so building passing loops is not going to help when it's road traffic that is the limiting factor.