EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[najaB]

Additional checks as necessary between NI and the U.K. mainland - it’s already a de facto “hard border” in the sense that you need to board a ferry or an aircraft to cross it.

I've crossed between the mainland and NI many times without any checks being made at all. The only thing they asked for was a name (not in any way verified) to go on the boarding pass (which was not in anyway inspected).

 

[Bromley boy]

Additional checks between NI and the UK mainland? I bet that will go down great with the DUP in an area that had a majority of remain voters, I can't see any problems, probably just my agenda coming to the fore.

I think we need to get away from this idea of “areas of remain voters” - it was a National in/out vote of the entire U.K. Where people happen to live within the U.K. is irrelevant.

It could be as simple as a queue for U.K. nationals separate to “rest of the world” as is currently in place for EU nationals v rest of the world all around the EU.

It doesn’t need to be very different to the current border situation - the U.K. has never been been part of Shengen, after all.

 

[radamfi]

Which rights are those?

If by brutal you mean leaving the EU and the single market then yes I’d agree that’s what has been voted for. Nobody who voted leave did so because they want things to stay the same. Staying in the single market is evidently not an option.

There’s some truth to the phrase “there’s no Brexit other than a hard Brexit”.

Nope, it was widely stated before the referendum that there is a range of options that would satisfy a Brexit vote, including Norway/Switzerland type arrangements. So Leavers assured us we would not lose our rights.

The main rights are our freedom to live, work and retire in the EU. We also have pension and healthcare rights across the EU. There are other things like mobile phone roaming, Erasmus student exchange and probably other things that will only become apparent when/if they are lost.

 

[Bromley boy]

Except the DUP won't accept that, which would mean the end of their agreement with the Conservatives, which would probably mean the collapse of Theresa May's Government, and then another General Election.
https://news.sky.com/story/dup-warn...sue-could-destablise-confidence-deal-11150379

Well, yes, that’s true. There’s some serious negotiation to be done.

But the alternative is a hard border between NI/Eire which is clearly unpalatable to most (possibly not to the DUP?!).

I don’t see why we can’t continue with a slightly amended version of the current CTA arrangements - hopefully common sense will win the day and that’s what we will end up with.

 

[EM2]

Well, yes, that’s true. There’s some serious negotiation to be done.

But the alternative is a hard border between NI/Eire which is clearly unpalatable to most (possibly not to the DUP?!).

Or much more simply, we could stay in the Customs Union, or in the EEA.

 

[fowler9]

I think we need to get away from this idea of “areas of remain voters” - it was a National in/out vote of the entire U.K. Where people happen to live within the U.K. is irrelevant.

It could be as simple as a queue for U.K. nationals separate to “rest of the world” as is currently in place for EU nationals v rest of the world all around the EU.

It doesn’t need to be very different to the current border situation - the U.K. has never been been part of Shengen, after all.

You are right, it should be simple but I think you will find some people will find it symbolically unacceptable to have to go through a border check to get from their country to their country to keep a load of people in their country they don't agree with happy.

 

[87 027]

Christopher Booker suggests in today's Telegraph (paywall) that if we fall back on WTO rules, those rules oblige all countries we trade with on WTO terms to be treated equally so it would be difficult legally to have special treatment for the NI and ROI border

 

[Bromley boy]

Or much more simply, we could stay in the Customs Union, or in the EEA.

Membership, or otherwise, of the customs union is not relevant to migration/movement of people across borders.

EEA membership requires the four fundamental freedoms to be retained - that is not what has been voted for by the country, so not an option. If we wanted to stay within the single market we would have voted to remain.

We can just stick with a variation of the CTA arrangements we already have. That has to be the sensible solution.

 

[najaB]

EEA membership requires the four fundamental freedoms to be retained - that is not what has been voted for by the country...

I wasn't aware of a plebiscite asking specifically which, if any, of the four freedoms the 'country' wished to retain.

 

[radamfi]

EEA membership requires the four fundamental freedoms to be retained - that is not what has been voted for by the country, so not an option. If we wanted to stay within the single market we would have voted to remain.

Don't assume all Brexiteers want to be out of the single market. One of the most prominent "leave" bloggers wants to keep the single market and free movement.

http://eureferendum.com/

Even if just 1 in 50 of Leave voters want to stay in the single market, if you assume all Remainers want to stay in the single market, that means a majority of voters want to stay in the single market.

 

[EM2]

Membership, or otherwise, of the customs union is not relevant to migration/movement of people across borders.

EEA membership requires the four fundamental freedoms to be retained - that is not what has been voted for by the country, so not an option. If we wanted to stay within the single market we would have voted to remain.

It wasn't on the referendum paper. We can leave the EU (which was the question that was asked) and be in the EEA.

We can just stick with a variation of the CTA arrangements we already have. That has to be the sensible solution.

And how will that deal with the movement of goods, services and capital?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It wasn't on the referendum paper. We can leave the EU (which was the question that was asked) and be in the EEA.

The remain side consistently said that to leave the EU would mean to leave the single market, which comes with both with the EEA and EFTA. Not to mention, even if being in the EEA wasn't on the ballot paper, nothing the majority of leave voters cared about would be dealt with. We'd still be paying into the EU budget, we'd still be allowing free movement, and we would also still follow some of their rules. Only difference with the latter is that we don't get a say in them. I think that the reason Theresa is going for a so-called 'hard brexit' is because the other options couldn't be called a Brexit.

 

[najaB]

The remain side consistently said that to leave the EU would mean to leave the single market.

My memory must be playing tricks on me as I clearly remember people like David Davis saying things like

So there is almost certainly going to be a deal, one that maintains a free market between the EU and the UK.

I don't see how there could be a free market between the UK and EU without it being the Single Market.

 

[EM2]

The remain side consistently said that to leave the EU would mean to leave the single market, which comes with both with the EEA and EFTA.

I didn't read that from anyone that was campaigning to remain. I did see it from many that wanted to leave, however.

Not to mention, even if being in the EEA wasn't on the ballot paper, nothing the majority of leave voters cared about would be dealt with.

We don't know what they cared about, because it wasn't the question that was asked on the paper. We've learnt a lot afterwards, of course.

We'd still be paying into the EU budget, we'd still be allowing free movement, and we would also still follow some of their rules. Only difference with the latter is that we don't get a say in them. I think that the reason Theresa is going for a so-called 'hard brexit' is because the other options couldn't be called a Brexit.

Of course it could. The referendum was to leave or remain in the EU. To leave is Brexit. Everything else is additional.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I didn't read that from anyone that was campaigning to remain. I did see it from many that wanted to leave, however.

I get this YouTube channel might be a bit biased, but the words are also coming from their mouths

We don't know what they cared about, because it wasn't the question that was asked on the paper. We've learnt a lot afterwards, of course.

The majority of leave voters did care about the issues of sovereignty and immigration though, and some would be willing to leave the single market to have it that way.

Of course it could. The referendum was to leave or remain in the EU. To leave is Brexit. Everything else is additional.

But there's really no point in leaving if nothing changes. I'd rather remain as it is than lose any say over the laws we'd have to follow. Imagine being told you're getting promoted at work to a job you don't want and having no choice in the matter?

 

[EM2]

Did you actually watch that video? Because pretty much every comment from a Remain campaigner was along the lines of 'If we leave the single market, which is what the Leave campaign want'. None of them said 'We should leave the single market if we leave the EU'.

 

[EM2]

Imagine being told you're getting promoted at work to a job you don't want and having no choice in the matter?

It's happened to me in the past.

 

[furnessvale]

Don't assume all Brexiteers want to be out of the single market. One of the most prominent "leave" bloggers wants to keep the single market and free movement.

http://eureferendum.com/

Even if just 1 in 50 of Leave voters want to stay in the single market, if you assume all Remainers want to stay in the single market, that means a majority of voters want to stay in the single market.

A lot of "ifs" knocking about at the moment.
I seem to recall a good part of the remain campaign was "vote remain and we will change the EU from within".
If just 1 in 50 of potential leave voters believed that nonsense and voted remain, that would cancel out your 1 in 50.
As the old saying goes, "if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle".

 

[radamfi]

A lot of "ifs" knocking about at the moment.
I seem to recall a good part of the remain campaign was "vote remain and we will change the EU from within".
If just 1 in 50 of potential leave voters believed that nonsense and voted remain, that would cancel out your 1 in 50.
As the old saying goes, "if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle".

Not all leavers want to leave the single market.

 

[Bromley boy]

I wasn't aware of a plebiscite asking specifically which, if any, of the four freedoms the 'country' wished to retain.

Do you believe leave voters voted as they did in order to retain the status quo? Of course they didn’t!

As I leave voter I fully expected my vote meant to leave the EU, and all that comes with that.

Anyone with half a brain realises that means relinquishing the four freedoms!

 

[EM2]

Anyone with half a brain realises that means relinquishing the four freedoms!

So why didn't we just do it then?
A50 notification, we're leaving, thanks, bye?
Wait two years and it's done.
No negotiations.
No trade deal.
As hard a Brexit as you could have.

 

[furnessvale]

Not all leavers want to leave the single market.

That's the second time you've said that but it doesn't change the meaning of my comment.

 

[furnessvale]

So why didn't we just do it then?
A50 notification, we're leaving, thanks, bye?
Wait two years and it's done.
No negotiations.
No trade deal.
As hard a Brexit as you could have.

Suits me. Sadly the government appointed a remainer as PM.

 

[Bromley boy]

Don't assume all Brexiteers want to be out of the single market. One of the most prominent "leave" bloggers wants to keep the single market and free movement.

http://eureferendum.com/

Even if just 1 in 50 of Leave voters want to stay in the single market, if you assume all Remainers want to stay in the single market, that means a majority of voters want to stay in the single market.

I’ve never come across that blogger to be honest. Let’s stop trying to split hairs and rewrite history!

The remain campaign painted a doom and gloom picture of lies, including a “punishment budget”, intended to cynically gerrymander the electorate into voting to remain. That’s what David Cameron intended when he announced the referendum - in his arrogance!

Anyone who was remotely intellectually honest in voting for leave wanted us to leave the single market. Many were not in favour in free movement of people - that wasn’t my main issue for my particular leave vote - but still a key concern for many.

 

[Bromley boy]

So why didn't we just do it then?
A50 notification, we're leaving, thanks, bye?
Wait two years and it's done.
No negotiations.
No trade deal.
As hard a Brexit as you could have.

I wish we would do, frankly, given the way the EU is behaving!

 

[najaB]

Anyone with half a brain realises that means relinquishing the four freedoms!

Then I know people who don't have half a brain. I know at least two Leave voters who are not happy with the idea that they may have to get a visa for their annual holidays in Spain.

 

[Bromley boy]

Then I know people who don't have half a brain. I know at least two Leave voters who are not happy with the idea that they may have to get a visa for their annual holidays in Spain.

That’s patently ridiculous.

Then again, I know two remain voters who believe continued membership of the EU will somehow nullify the effect on house prices of Jeremy Corbyn getting into power.

Don’t ask!

Severe, intractable, ignorance on both sides, I fear!

 

[najaB]

I wish we would do, frankly, given the way the EU is behaving!

I know. It's almost as if reaching a deal is less important to their future economic well-being than ours...

 

[furnessvale]

Then I know people who don't have half a brain. I know at least two Leave voters who are not happy with the idea that they may have to get a visa for their annual holidays in Spain.

Indeed, there are lots of people around with half a brain.
Would you believe there are people about who voted to remain, thinking the UK could change the EU from within! Naive isn't in it!

 

[najaB]

Severe, intractable, ignorance on both sides, I fear!

Which is why I wish people would stop throwing phrases like "What all [insert side] voters were voting for" around.