New c2c trains

[physics34]

No, everyone knows they're earmarked for the Isle of Wight line.

i heard that rumour..... as 2 cars. loool

 

[MatthewRead]

No, everyone knows they're earmarked for the Isle of Wight line.

No they are going to South Western Railway to work to Porstmouth it's the 1973 tube stock that's going to the Isle Of Wight because the Ryde tunnel is to narrow fro mainline rolling stock!

 

[class387]

No they are going to South Western Railway to work to Porstmouth it's the 1973 tube stock that's going to the Isle Of Wight because the Ryde tunnel is to narrow fro mainline rolling stock!

It's called sarcasm...

 

[D365]

There’s still six units that won’t be accounted for...

 

[MatthewRead]

It's called sarcasm...

Yes but I hate sarcasm!

 

[Wivenswold]

I'm so sorry for my personality. I'm really, really sorry.

 

[rebmcr]

I'm so sorry for my personality. I'm really, really sorry.

 

[delticdave]

Heh, why don't I place wagers on these things? I'd be rich by now :P

Bombardier have really got it right with the Aventra platform, they'll be absolutely omnipresent soon.

With regard to the bringing forward of the introduction, I imagine that's probably in part due to the unexpected overcrowding issues that arose when they introduced their new timetable objective. Extrapolate 6 years of organic growth on top of that, easy to see why they took the option to accelerate delivery as soon as they could. I'm curious what the extra units will be though - the fact they haven't already been seen to be doing this and have specified 2019 at the earliest makes me think they'll be something going off lease at that time, so possibly ex-GA units?

As for 100mph, pretty sure that covers every unit - 357s are 100, 387s are 110 and the other units they are presumably looking at would also be 100. I've often wondered if there was any scope to up the speed between Upney and Benfleet to at least 90, if not 100, but I don't know the route east of West Horndon well enough to know of any reasons why not. I can't ever see the branches being upgraded, I don't imagine the calling pattern warrants it.

There are 60(?) mph speed restrictions through Laindon & Pitsea, both due to curvature, but ISTR that an HST was allowed to reach 100 mph near Hornchurch many years ago. (LT&S 125th anniversary ?) Pitsea to Benfleet is straight, but possibly the somewhat soggy ground conditions might cause a problem for 100 mph running.

 

[samuelmorris]

That may explain it, I'm not too familiar with the line east of the stations I use. That said, there's effectively a permanent 60mph speed restriction at Gidea Park on the GEML Eastbound and that doesn't stop the linespeed either side being 90 for considerable distance. The Aventra units are so quick to reach those speeds, even relatively short sections could probably make use of 90, it depends how the acceleration of the 357s compares, though they're not exactly slow either. I doubt it'll ever happen because spending a large sum of money, introducing more engineering time disruption and putting the relatively good punctuality of the route at risk probably doesn't justify 3-5 minute journey time savings on peak services, but who knows.

 

[Fred43123]

There are 60(?) mph speed restrictions through Laindon & Pitsea, both due to curvature, but ISTR that an HST was allowed to reach 100 mph near Hornchurch many years ago. (LT&S 125th anniversary ?) Pitsea to Benfleet is straight, but possibly the somewhat soggy ground conditions might cause a problem for 100 mph running.

75mph through Laindon, 60 through Pitsea

 

[wipers]

Confirmed on Friday that Bombardier will deliver and maintain 60 electric carriages by September 2021, made up of 100mph 6 x 10-car trains.

 

[wipers]

probably obvious anyway but realise I didn't actually say that they'll be AVENTRA's.

 

[D365]

Six ten car units (23m) is equivalent to 18 four car units (20m). I thought c2c were required to provide more than 18?

 

[rebmcr]

Six ten car units (23m) is equivalent to 18 four car units (20m). I thought c2c were required to provide more than 18?

If the franchise terms assumed 20m carriages, necessitating some conversion arithmetic, perhaps some inaccuracy crept in.

I feel it's more likely that there's a deal to just keep the 387s.

 

[wipers]

As in keep the 387's plus the six new AVENTRA's? If so, agreed.

 

[Domh245]

Six ten car units (23m) is equivalent to 18 four car units (20m). I thought c2c were required to provide more than 18?

Franchise agreement says 68 vehicles, ie 17x 4 car units.

 

[D365]

Franchise agreement says 68 vehicles, ie 17x 4 car units.

Fair enough, wasn’t there an additional four units requested for after 2021? I can’t remember the exact details.

 

[swt_passenger]

Confirmed on Friday that Bombardier will deliver and maintain 60 electric carriages by September 2021, made up of 100mph 6 x 10-car trains.

probably obvious anyway but realise I didn't actually say that they'll be AVENTRA's.

The Aventra order was announced on Thursday, and c2c's press release giving the info was linked to a couple of pages back in post #175.

 

[Domh245]

Fair enough, wasn’t there an additional four units requested for after 2021? I can’t remember the exact details.

It was a phased delivery in the franchise agreement. 9 units by 30/10/2019, 4 by 30/10/2022, and then 4 more by 30/10/2024. Obviously they've decided to do it all in one bunch - they'll miss that first target (although the units that they mention looking to temporarily lease meets this in a way, I suppose) but they'll beat the next two.

The franchise agreement also says that 184 vehicles should be in service by 14/09/2024, which roughly coincides with the 184 357/0 vehicles coming off lease (11/11/2024) - although you would expect that they'd simply agree to renew the lease if the price is right.

 

[Alfie1014]

Surprised that they’re going for 24m vehicles as anything longer than 20m is restricted west of Barking. That’s not to say they can’t operate but there are clearance issues, not least with the curved platforms at Limehouse. It’ll be interesting to see how the stepping distance issue here will be dealt with, (Aventras not to stop perhaps)?

 

[edwin_m]

Surprised that they’re going for 24m vehicles as anything longer than 20m is restricted west of Barking. That’s not to say they can’t operate but there are clearance issues, not least with the curved platforms at Limehouse. It’ll be interesting to see how the stepping distance issue here will be dealt with, (Aventras not to stop perhaps)?

That is indeed surprising. It's not as if 20m Aventras aren't available, as SWR have ordered some. And I can't think they'd want to non-stop Limehouse, given its importance for DLR connections and the fact that they're moving towards stopping everything at all stations west of Barking to maximise capacity. We don't know how much of a problem the clearances are - maybe it's only a matter of a few minor adjustments?

 

[wls1]

That is indeed surprising. It's not as if 20m Aventras aren't available, as SWR have ordered some. And I can't think they'd want to non-stop Limehouse, given its importance for DLR connections and the fact that they're moving towards stopping everything at all stations west of Barking to maximise capacity. We don't know how much of a problem the clearances are - maybe it's only a matter of a few minor adjustments?

All bar 2 trains in the AM miss Limehouse and quite a few miss West Ham in the evening, mainly to prevent overcrowding on 4 car trains.

 

[87015]

All bar 2 trains in the AM miss Limehouse and quite a few miss West Ham in the evening, mainly to prevent overcrowding on 4 car trains.

But that's a massive comedown from the bid commitment that everything would stop, which totally didn't work in reality due to the loadings you mention (let alone the customer reaction to it)

 

[edwin_m]

Do Tilbury line commuters heading for Canary Wharf use Limehouse or West Ham? West Ham is probably shorter overall but Limehouse is only one stop further on c2c, an easier change than West Ham (certainly going towards CW) and three closely spaced stops on the DLR.

 

[wls1]

Most commuters use west ham for canary wharf, its easier on the jubilee. Its the first stop that it comes up to and national rail advises it so most will take that. Different in the evening as you can have a chance of a seat or some space at limehouse, where you wouldn't at west ham. All am loop trains call at limehouse and west ham and a few miss west ham in the pm, which is also a factor.

EDIT: Also as a side note, the damaged units are back in service, there were no shortforms on friday morning with a full peak service.

 

[racyrich]

All bar 2 trains in the AM miss Limehouse and quite a few miss West Ham in the evening, mainly to prevent overcrowding on 4 car trains.

You mean all bar 2 AM trains stop at Limehouse. And only 1 AM train skips West Ham.

I'm still wondering about the franchise bid promise for 24tph into Fen St in the morning peak. Seems unachievable. And with proper length trains for the existing 20 tph, unnecessary.

 

[samuelmorris]

I see there is some Wikipedia squabbling over someone having dug out a copy of rail magazine stating these units will in fact be Class 720/6 rather than Class 711.

Anything official yet to suggest what the reality is? 720/6 seems an odd choice for full-size 10-car units but then expecting logic from TOPS classes these days is probably a bit much.

 

[hwl]

I see there is some Wikipedia squabbling over someone having dug out a copy of rail magazine stating these units will in fact be Class 720/6 rather than Class 711.

Anything official yet to suggest what the reality is? 720/6 seems an odd choice for full-size 10-car units but then expecting logic from TOPS classes these days is probably a bit much.

Well they are effectively 720s just for different operator, 720/1 are the Anglia's 10 cars so just add 5 to the subclass??? Long term if C2C go for a new fleet then Anglia would be a good home especially when they need to address the stock shortage.

 

[samuelmorris]

I agree with the use of 720 rather than a different class, but having them adjacent to the /5 when they're 10-car units is a bit bizarre. /2 would seem more sensible.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder that this thread is to discuss new c2c trains.

The forum has plenty of capacity for threads to be created to discuss any other topics, so please do create a new thread (in the appropriate forum section) to discuss anything else.

If anyone wishes to post ideas or suggestions for changes to provision please ensure these are posted in Speculative Ideas, thanks.