May 2018 timetable changes

[GW43125]

The services as proposed from London Euston to Blackpool North are provisionally viewable now too, for example.

I can't help but notice those timings are awfully slack. London to Warrington in well over two hours, compared with the 103 minutes taken by the London-Scotlands. Even with a stop in at Rugby, that seems awfully slow.

 

[northwichcat]

What does that have to do with anything? The service as shown at Batley at present appears to comply with the requirements. There is nothing to stop additional services being provided over and above this, which is why I said it was only likely that there would be no services rather than certain. There are requirements to run services on the Penistone and other lines you mention, so we can be sure they will run.

You earlier said

Appears no Northern services for Bately, which results in a slight reduction in the number of daily services

Which to someone who hasn't been on to OTT could be read as 'The Leeds-Southport services are in the system and none of them appearing to be making calls at Batley' opposed to 'Northern services aren't in the system but I'm assuming Northern won't make any Batley calls.'

Northern carried out a Stakeholder consultation so I would be extremely surprised if Metro had seen a slight reduction in the number of daily services at Batley and not said anything about it, whether Northern added in any Batley calls is a different question.

 

[Starmill]

I can't help but notice those timings are awfully slack. London to Warrington in well over two hours, compared with the 103 minutes taken by the London-Scotlands. Even with a stop in at Rugby, that seems awfully slow.

They don't seem too bad. If you take the 1036 it departs 4 minutes ahead of the Manchester Piccadilly service which then overtakes it at Rugby. It then passes through Crewe 4 minutes behind it. Little disappointing they were unable to call anywhere between Rugby and Warrington Bank Quay but fair enough. Into WBQ 1h 56 after leaving Euston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the 32m headline non-stop Liverpool-Victoria has become 35m on both the Chat Moss TPE services, each making one stop.
The Newcastle gets Newton-le-Willows and the Scarborough gets Lea Green.
Those TPE services get class 9 headcodes too. Meant to distinguish future LHCS services?

TPE Manchester-Scotland trains run via Bolton (a bit optimistic on day 1?).
Euston-Blackpool has about 20m of inserted time in the paths, and just calls at Rugby south of Warrington.
Maybe this is not final. Subject to Blackpool wires of course.

 

[Ianno87]

They don't seem too bad. If you take the 1036 it departs 4 minutes ahead of the Manchester Piccadilly service which then overtakes it at Rugby. It then passes through Crewe 4 minutes behind it. Little disappointing they were unable to call anywhere between Rugby and Warrington Bank Quay but fair enough. Into WBQ 1h 56 after leaving Euston.

Yes, generally slightly sub-2 hours. Given a non-stop run is c 1hr 45, not bad at all with an overtaking move involved.

 

[TC60054]

The Newcastle gets Newton-le-Willows and the Scarborough gets Lea Green.
Those TPE services get class 9 headcodes too. Meant to distinguish future LHCS services?

Newcastle (and the future Edinburgh services) aren't being run by LHCS.

 

[lejog]

Appears no Northern services for Bately, which results in a slight reduction in the number of daily services

Northern carried out a Stakeholder consultation so I would be extremely surprised if Metro had seen a slight reduction in the number of daily services at Batley and not said anything about it, whether Northern added in any Batley calls is a different question.

As someone who occasionally travels on the Hebden Bridge to Leeds via Batley service, I am baffled about this claimed reduction in services.

The current Northern morning service to Leeds is 6.46, 7.19, 7.50, 8.15, 8.46, 9.18, 9.46, then x.18 and x.46
The TPE service is showing as 6.33, 7.12, 7.35, 8.12, 8.34, 9.13, 9.34 and the x.13 and x.34.

Yes, less well spaced (and WYMetro certainly commented on that on many lines) but still 2tph. Where exactly is this reduction in service?

 

[Starmill]

2100 Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street looks very good, departing Manchester Victoria at 2324, and calling at both Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green. A later service and a fast service at that. Then there is a 2140 Hull to Manchester Piccadilly which calls at Brough, Selby, Leeds and then all stations () to Stalybridge, and Manchester Pic.

 

[tbtc]

I just find it astounding that the main intercity service from Hull to Manchester is seen as a suitable train to call at random villages and minor towns. Perhaps the CrossCountry Reading to Newcastle services should call at Water Orton?(!)

TPE will be the only service between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, so it's not dis-similar to when there were no off-peak stoppers between Macclesfield and Stoke and XC stopped services at Congleton

True.

We've seen XC be the regular provider of stops at places like Dronfield and Chester le Street in recent times - that's the problem of "InterCity" lines that have no "local" services on them to pick up the slack - since we are talking about eastern Leeds, I think that the early days of privatisation still saw XC stopping some services at Crossgates (there was certainly a Crossgates stop on a "Cross Country" service in BR days).

At least Hull - Leeds will be doubled in frequency, when the Northern service arrives (though presumably this isn't in May 2018).

 

[Bevan Price]

The new TransPennine Express timetable is now (at least) partly visible in OpenTrainTimes.

The compromises involved to get the benefits are much more significant than I had thought they would be.

Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 11 minutes to 59 minutes
Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds: typical journey time increase of 3 minutes
Hull to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 6 minutes

Appears no Northern services for Bately, which results in a slight reduction in the number of daily services
St Helens and Wavertree Technology Park to Newton-le-Willows services reduce to hourly

Lea Green to Manchester Victoria: typical journey time decrease of 10 minutes, to 22 minutes and addition of through trains to Scarborough
Leeds to Manchester Victoria: 3tph in 48 minutes (1 at present) and a 4th in 51 minutes

So very bad news for St. Helens Junction - reduced from 2 (one fast, one slow) to only one per hour (all stations) service to/from Manchester - just as they are increasing the station car park capacity. Meanwhile, extra traffic likely to be transferred to Lea Green, where its existing car park is already getting full on some days, and where there seems little space to extend the car park.

For travel towards Manchester, St. Helens Junction is much more "user-friendly" for passengers - easier access and better shelter from bad weather than at Lea Green. Definitely a retrograde step in my opinion as a local user.

 

[Starmill]

16 minutes for Bolton to Preston is quite impressive - half the current time. All TransPennine services have been listed as pick up only northbound and set down only southbound. The 0422 from Glasgow Central and the 1610 and 1710 from Manchester Airport pass Bolton non-stop. Whenever this part of the change comes in this will be very interesting.

 

[Railrover700]

16 minutes for Bolton to Preston is quite impressive - half the current time. All TransPennine services have been listed as pick up only northbound and set down only southbound. The 0422 from Glasgow Central and the 1610 and 1710 from Manchester Airport pass Bolton non-stop. Whenever this part of the change comes in this will be very interesting.

Particularly as it is shown to be worked by a class 506 EMU

 

[SeanM1997]

Anyone know any timetable changes at Crewe?

 

[YorkshireBear]

The impact on the Hull service is not as bad as I feared. Although Like IanXC I still do not agree with it at all. If those services are not 6 car then there is going to be major issues at peak times picking up calls where it is. Those are not lightly used stations and are big commuter stations. The addition of Garforth too is to me, not the best decision! Or even remotely sensible.

I will be interested to see after say a month what the reliability of the timetable is like.

For me personally journey times from Piccadilly to Leeds will worsen whatever, but the overall service provision for Manchester is a big improvement.

 

[pdq]

Notwithstanding the draft nature of this, the calling pattern at Batley is disappointing: morning trains to Huddersfield/Manchester at xx:49 and xx:05 only and to Leeds at xx:12 and xx:34. Similar spacing in the evening. I would have hoped for a roughly half-hourly service, not this bunching.

 

[notlob.divad]

From my experience it's easier to find an empty seat on an ex-Hull service at Leeds than one which has come from York, despite York services being more frequent.

The logic in that statement is surely that frequency of service has a bigger impact upon passenger numbers than other factors.

I just find it astounding that the main intercity service from Hull to Manchester is seen as a suitable train to call at random villages and minor towns.

I agree, I am really surprised that they have not taken the opportunity to create a Hull - Liverpool express, with the Scarborough train picking up the skip stopping pattern from Manchester Piccadilly.

2100 Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street looks very good, departing Manchester Victoria at 2324, and calling at both Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green. A later service and a fast service at that.

That looks excellent, one of my big worries was that the last train west out of Manchester would disappear / go from Piccadilly making concert going at the arena impossible without a car. This is good news as now you won't even have to do the last song dash to ensure you make the train.

So very bad news for St. Helens Junction - reduced from 2 (one fast, one slow) to only one per hour (all stations) service to/from Manchester - just as they are increasing the station car park capacity. Meanwhile, extra traffic likely to be transferred to Lea Green, where its existing car park is already getting full on some days, and where there seems little space to extend the car park.

For travel towards Manchester, St. Helens Junction is much more "user-friendly" for passengers - easier access and better shelter from bad weather than at Lea Green. Definitely a retrograde step in my opinion as a local user.

This was at the agreement of St. Helens Council, Merseytravel and TPE. It is no secret that the parking facilities and public transport at Junction are woeful and St. Helens Council/Network Rail have been struggling to come up with a solution to the overflow onto street parking around Junction. Whilst I agree that the waiting facilities at Junction are significantly better currently, the 'express' TPE stopping there might be the incentive required to improve facilities at Lea Green, which is likely to be a lot easier than at Junction without the heritage issues and with both land and height to work. So I am mildly optimistic about this solution, and only await a name change from Lea Green to St. Helens South.

 

[Spartacus]

Notwithstanding the draft nature of this, the calling pattern at Batley is disappointing: morning trains to Huddersfield/Manchester at xx:49 and xx:05 only and to Leeds at xx:12 and xx:34. Similar spacing in the evening. I would have hoped for a roughly half-hourly service, not this bunching.

Isn't there still the Northern Brighouse services to go in though giving 3 an hour? Judging by the info posted by Starmill that'd mean to an approximately xx36 to Brighouse and xx47 to Leeds, which seems to work with the TPE portion of the timetable.

An informed source suggests that this could be xx21 from Leeds, calling Cottingley, Morley, Dewsbury, Mirfield, Brighouse and stations to Southport via Manchester Vic. Leaving Manchester Vic on the way back at xx37 and Brighouse 55 minutes after that.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Isn't there still the Northern Brighouse services to go in though giving 3 an hour? Judging by the info posted by Starmill that'd mean to an approximately xx36 to Brighouse and xx47 to Leeds, which seems to work with the TPE portion of the timetable.

#
That service does not stop at Batley.

 

[lejog]

Notwithstanding the draft nature of this, the calling pattern at Batley is disappointing: morning trains to Huddersfield/Manchester at xx:49 and xx:05 only and to Leeds at xx:12 and xx:34. Similar spacing in the evening. I would have hoped for a roughly half-hourly service, not this bunching.

As I said previously that was one of WYCA's biggest complaint about the timetable across many services across West Yorkshire. The TPE services have become clock face, local services have suffered, the stopping TPE service is looped at Dewsbury, so arrives at Batley 5 min later - otherwise the service would be xx.07 and xx.34

Isn't there still the Northern Brighouse services to go in though giving 3 an hour? Judging by the info posted by Starmill that'd mean to an approximately xx36 to Brighouse and xx47 to Leeds, which seems to work with the TPE portion of the timetable.

No Starmill's post confirms that in normal service, the Northern service skips Batley and Ravensthorpe. It is still difficult to work out how this stopper fits in with the new 15min TPE frequency, at the moment it runs in a longer 21 minute window between TPE trains, even when it skips 1 or 2 stations already.

 

[Spartacus]

I missed that it doesn't call at Batley, I was more concerned with the Mirfield stop. I don't think the calling pattern's all that bad though, I remember they weren't all that spread out all that long ago.

 

[lejog]

The impact on the Hull service is not as bad as I feared. Although Like IanXC I still do not agree with it at all. If those services are not 6 car then there is going to be major issues at peak times picking up calls where it is. Those are not lightly used stations and are big commuter stations. The addition of Garforth too is to me, not the best decision! Or even remotely sensible.

Interesting to see 6car 185s at Slaithwaite's 60m platform!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting to see 6car 185s at Slaithwaite's 60m platform!

Exactly. But surely they cannot seriously be running these as 3 car long term (maybe in short term until new stock arrives). I think all the stations TPE are stopping at are down for extensions to 6*23m though.

 

[Fred26]

The GN/Thameslink timetables for May have started to appear in Open Train Times. Looks like mainly CBG-core services at present with class 9 headcodes. Whether they will stay class 9 I don't know.

 

[Starmill]

Notwithstanding the draft nature of this, the calling pattern at Batley is disappointing: morning trains to Huddersfield/Manchester at xx:49 and xx:05 only and to Leeds at xx:12 and xx:34. Similar spacing in the evening. I would have hoped for a roughly half-hourly service, not this bunching.

This worsening of service (where 2tph are maintained but the gaps are longer than before, in some cases much longer) is I think like to be a common theme in the area.

 

[Starmill]

No Starmill's post confirms that in normal service, the Northern service skips Batley and Ravensthorpe. It is still difficult to work out how this stopper fits in with the new 15min TPE frequency, at the moment it runs in a longer 21 minute window between TPE trains, even when it skips 1 or 2 stations already.

Which stopper?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TPE Scotland trains (now xx10 from Man Airport) are 5 minutes faster to Preston.
The Glasgows then seem to lose that gain further north, but the Edinburghs gain another 5 minutes to get there 10 minutes faster overall.

 

[northwichcat]

The TPE Scotland trains (now xx10 from Man Airport) are 5 minutes faster to Preston.
The Glasgows then seem to lose that gain further north, but the Edinburghs gain another 5 minutes to get there 10 minutes faster overall.

Noticed TPE are applying pick up and set down restrictions at Bolton and Haymarket, so you can do Bolton to Haymarket but not Manchester Airport to Bolton or Haymarket to Edinburgh. Interesting OTT says they are timed for class 506s at 110mph!

 

[Starmill]

The restrictions at Haymarket on TP services are as currently, but yes that would indeed seem to be the case.

 

[louis97]

Interesting OTT says they are timed for class 506s at 110mph!

That is how Class 350 timed at 110mph are output in the data source. The same is displayed, on Open Train Times, for London Midland Class 350 services timed at 110mph.

 

[SprinterMan]

The GN/Thameslink timetables for May have started to appear in Open Train Times. Looks like mainly CBG-core services at present with class 9 headcodes. Whether they will stay class 9 I don't know.

What website are you using to see these? The trains currently in the system are the trains that will NOT be running in May 2018 and are merely holding paths. How can you see what the headcodes are, I am using Open Train Times and I can just see the headcodes as "FRGT".

Adam