Do WCML stations have a worse service under VTWC?

[A0]

With an hourly Virgin service to London! What more could be offered to tempt these London commuters to sample the delights of Stafford?

Perhaps it needs something unique to give it a lift - MK has concrete cows, perhaps Stafford could have concrete donkeys.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does seem bizarre to have dumped the quite substantial amount of high-earning long distance revenue from passengers boarding at Watford Junction, while at the same time making additional provision for minor stations like these, which between them probably have a handful of passengers daily to London, all the while causing crush conditions from the more mainstream Trent Valley points. I suppose a second unit attached/detached at Stafford is far too difficult for anyone to organise.

From December the service will cease the "Stoke wobble" and run straight up the WCML, which will allow it to be 8-car. A Birmingham service will replace it.

I wonder if 5x24m (Aventra) will fit to avoid a 4-car needing to be used there?

 

[A0]

It does seem bizarre to have dumped the quite substantial amount of high-earning long distance revenue from passengers boarding at Watford Junction, while at the same time making additional provision for minor stations like these, which between them probably have a handful of passengers daily to London, all the while causing crush conditions from the more mainstream Trent Valley points. I suppose a second unit attached/detached at Stafford is far too difficult for anyone to organise.

Attaching / detaching units is a PITA - which is why operators try to avoid it. It's not without its problems and it adds to the journey time as anyone who has sat through a unit attach / detach will attest.

Trying to do it on a busy through station like Stafford just adds unnecessary complexity.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps it needs something unique to give it a lift - MK has concrete cows, perhaps Stafford could have concrete donkeys.....

I admit i am being factious but Stafford already has a really good service to London and a decent service to local towns.

 

[A0]

I admit i am being factious but Stafford already has a really good service to London and a decent service to local towns.

Agreed - and my tongue was firmly in cheek when I replied.

The reality is there's alot of relatively small, relatively insignificant places which once upon a time received an "Inter City" service, which has been withdrawn for a multitude of reasons - the stations along the TV being a really good example. The problem is people seem to think that such services should be reinstated - without ever seeming to reflect on the fact those stations now have a vastly better service than they had in the 80s or 90s - the TV line again being a case in point. What was once an infrequent EMU service which ran Rugby - Stafford supplemented by a couple of random Inter City services, that became an irregular DMU service and a couple of IC services has now become a pretty much hourly service, with new 110 mph EMUs running to more useful places than it did before.

 

[6Gman]

Stafford’s a major commuter town, which I admit isn’t the best, but is improving. Still, it deserves SOME Scotland services due to the fact its completely possible to implement in a town, where virgin trains loadings are good.

I’d go as far as saying I’d drop the a few of the hourly LNWR services, as I’d avoid them like the plague, with the slow journey times.

Stafford is a lovely town!

"Deserves" doesn't come into it; it's a decision based on a whole range of factors. I might just as well claim that Crewe (e.g.) "deserves" the through trains to Oxford or Bristol that Stafford sees ...

But the Scottish issue has been discussed at length - and the changes at Crewe are hardly arduous. Around 20" connections and from the same platform normally!

 

[Ianno87]

I'm not going to suggest detailed plans, my crayons are too blunt to write in a timetable and I don't have the knowledge either but for me the defect in the WCML timetable is the Crewe-Warrington gap which is 1TPH - the Via West Midlands to Scotland trains. I realise the a lot of the WCML gains have been in a cleverer stopping pattern but it has reduced customer choice. Basing future services on ticket sales for journeys the present timetable makes inconvenient is one of the railway's failings. Hardly anyone (for example) travels from Bentham to Leeds so there is no need for those services but it is false logic.

But remember when the Dec 2008 timetable was being developed (2006-7), it was during a time when there would have been many years of demand data available for flows like Stafford-Scotland on direct trains.

They manage perfectly in late evening and early morning with a Stafford call

Is the XC service (and other services around) still there and in the same path at those times?

 

[The Planner]

They manage perfectly in late evening and early morning with a Stafford call

Do you mean the Manchester to London via Birmingham in the morning, which doesn't have a XC behind it, and the Glasgow Euston in the evening which is off pattern and earlier so doesn't cause a problem?

 

[pt_mad]

For Stafford read Nuneaton - the same comments apply: Small, insignificant place with little going for it economically other than as a dormitory for larger cities. To improve services there you have to sacrifice revenue from better served towns and cities.

The only difference is that Stafford already has an hourly Virgin service to Euston which Nuneaton doesn't. I doubt it needs more.



Why - what do you think that would bring that Virgin wont?





Don't you understand how Nuneaton is the centre of the universe?



Toys out of pram because people don't share your view on the importance of Nuneaton to the economy of the country? It has a good and regular service to Euston residents with limited stops and more importantly Milton Keynes which is also a draw for commuting Nuneaton . Yes, the trains are too small (I speak from regular use!) and they aren't "intercity" style trains but they are decent and perfectly suitable for the run between Nuneaton and Euston.

I think the focus for Nuneaton should be getting longer trains on both the LM run and on the XC run to Brum. What extra would a Virgin service offer over the current LM run? 5 minutes of the journey time? I suggest you would lose that calling at MK to serve that market.

Comments a bit rude towards Stafford and Nuneaton. Not everyone can have the opportunity to live in places like London and green suburbs and villages. Besides that, it's as much about helping people from those areas to travel outwards, as much as it is to bring people in. Perceived snobbery against Stafford and Nuneaton doesn't seem a very reasonable take on it.

I'm sure Didcot on the Great Western Mainline is not the centre of the universe. It does however enjoy a far superior service to that enjoyed by towns on the Trent Valley route, even to the detriment of slowing down longer distance services.

The reason the LNW Crewe's are mainly 4 car at the moment is certain stations further north - Stone and Alsager in particular - cannot accommodate 8 car units, which is why in due course the London - Crewe's are going to be diverted to run direct from Stafford away from the Potteries line. That will allow longer trains on the TV.

Yes. Still makes you wonder why this was ever planned to run that way though, and why thinking was that 4 cars would be adequate to provide a main shared London service for all those towns on the Trent Valley.

 

[DarloRich]

Comments a bit rude towards Stafford and Nuneaton. Not everyone can have the opportunity to live in places like London and green suburbs and villages. Besides that, it's as much about helping people from those areas to travel outwards, as much as it is to bring people in. Perceived snobbery against Stafford and Nuneaton doesn't seem a very reasonable take on it.

I'm sure Didcot on the Great Western Mainline is not the centre of the universe. It does however enjoy a far superior service to that enjoyed by towns on the Trent Valley route, even to the detriment of slowing down longer distance services.

give it a rest. I guess you have missed the hourly service to Euston offered by Virgin and the hourly service to Euston ( via Trent Valley stations) offered by LM from Stafford or the hourly service from Nuneaton to London with two stops. That journey to Euston takes 1hr 15m.

 

[A0]

Yes. Still makes you wonder why this was ever planned to run that way though, and why thinking was that 4 cars would be adequate to provide a main shared London service for all those towns on the Trent Valley.

Because it was addressing a couple of things:

1 - providing a service to the TV stations
2 - providing a service along the Potteries line.

These had been separate previously - it was clearly felt worthwhile to combine them.

Bear in mind for the previous 10 years the TV line had been provided with a variable and sporadic service it was anyone's guess how popular the replacement would be.

I remember using the Virgin Pendo service that ran through Northampton mid mornibg and stopped along the TV en route to Manchester and you had penny numbers boarding and alighting.

 

[acned]

Nobody wants to change anywhere, but a railway system doesn't work without changes.

With portions it can! That is, carriages that can be attached and detached. Southern Region had the right idea back in the day. The last proper loco-hauled W.CM.L. splitter was the Liverpool and Manchester overnight that split at Stafford. I think it finished in 1990? Of course, the sleeper still splits. The faff trying to attach and detach Vomiters at New Street nowadays is always entertaining.

 

[pt_mad]

give it a rest. I guess you have missed the hourly service to Euston offered by Virgin and the hourly service to Euston ( via Trent Valley stations) offered by LM from Stafford or the hourly service from Nuneaton to London with two stops. That journey to Euston takes 1hr 15m.

When I said your comments were a bit rude, I meant when you said that Stafford and Nuneaton were small insignificant places with nothing economically going for them except being a dormitory for larger cities'

I'm sure their residents and MPs would beg to differ.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Stafford isn’t insignificant, economically lacking, yes.

It’s been let to die for too long, and now it is honestly just people going to London or Birmingham as you said... BUT THAT IS STAFFORD TOWN.

The surrounding areas are where the real demand is, the more upmarket places... Eccleshall, Woodseves, Newport, Yarnfield etc

 

[pt_mad]

Regardless of where we all think should or shouldn't be served on the WCML, HS2 is only 8 years away from being in operation. And after that, they'll probably want to stop the largely redundant tilting trains at all manner of intermediate stops after that.

Hopefully GNWR gets granted, as it makes sensible use of one of the other fast paths, which if it remains unused, raises questions as to why Norton Bridge upgrade was so necessary.

 

[All Line Rover]

You have the southbound XC up your backside and you cannot add a stop at Stafford without impacting it.

Is there no spare platform at Stafford that the VT service could use while waiting* for the XC service to overtake there, rather than at Wolverhampton?

*For at least 5 minutes, to maintain a connection with the XC service for passengers travelling beyond Birmingham to stations to Reading / Bournemouth (the connection currently being at Wolverhampton).

 

[philthetube]

I have never worked out what Wign and Warrington do to get so many services.

 

[thenorthern]

Hartford has lost all of its Virgin Trains services, surprisingly though now the Birmingham to Liverpool service has been doubled only one of them calls at Hartford.

Nuneaton and Stafford did have more West Coast Main Line services call there previously but Tamworth and Lichfield have overall more West Coast Main Line trains stopping there than in British Rail days as very few intercity trains called there and the Central Trains service was very irregular.

Here is a the timetable for the Trent Valley Services in 2003.
https://web.archive.org/web/2003111...ables/20030916140132-5/Guide B Wint03 (1).pdf

Here is the 2001 Virgin Trains West Coast timetable just a warning its an .xls
https://web.archive.org/web/2001012...ntrains.co.uk:80/temptimetable/pdf/leweek.xls

 

[roversfan2001]

I have never worked out what Wign and Warrington do to get so many services.

Be in the right place geographically. If Wigan and Warrington were in the Trent Valley they wouldn't get fast Virgin services to London every hour.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have never worked out what Wign and Warrington do to get so many services.

I expect they’re on a stretch of line where, if Virgin don’t call, nobody else realistically can. Probably favourable pathing too.

It’s not always about a place “deserving” a direct train.

 

[The Planner]

Is there no spare platform at Stafford that the VT service could use while waiting* for the XC service to overtake there, rather than at Wolverhampton?

*For at least 5 minutes, to maintain a connection with the XC service for passengers travelling beyond Birmingham to stations to Reading / Bournemouth (the connection currently being at Wolverhampton).

It would have to arrive at Stafford at xx.20 to do that which I don't think it can do as it tends to pass at that time. It then would have to wait at Stafford for 8 minutes until xx.28 as the XC tends to depart at xx.25. It couldn't do that in 6 as it would clash with the northbound XC at xx.28. The Liverpool is in 3 between xx.22 and xx.24. It could work in 1 but would have to be reliable to avoid knocking the down Holyhead.

 

[Ianno87]

Comments a bit rude towards Stafford and Nuneaton. Not everyone can have the opportunity to live in places like London and green suburbs and villages. Besides that, it's as much about helping people from those areas to travel outwards, as much as it is to bring people in. Perceived snobbery against Stafford and Nuneaton doesn't seem a very reasonable take on it.

I'm sure Didcot on the Great Western Mainline is not the centre of the universe. It does however enjoy a far superior service to that enjoyed by towns on the Trent Valley route, even to the detriment of slowing down longer distance services.



Yes. Still makes you wonder why this was ever planned to run that way though, and why thinking was that 4 cars would be adequate to provide a main shared London service for all those towns on the Trent Valley.

I think the original Dec 2008 plan to restore the service to Stone was to have a London-Midland esque Manchester-Stoke-Brum service cover it. However, the timetabling of this service didn't work so the Euston-Trent Valley-Crewe services was diverted via Stoke instead as a compromise.

I think it was also not expexted that passengers would routinely sit on it all the way to Euston. The original (pre-Dec 2012 110mph operation) paths has good Southbound VT connections for Euston at Stafford (into the ex-Liverpool) and again at Rugby (into an ex-Brum). And the original service also took a leisurely stroll via Northampton (as the Sunday service still does)

Obviously, the combination of LM/LNWR-only fares and significant acceleration of tbe service have seen to that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have never worked out what Wign and Warrington do to get so many services.

Have a population of 320,000 (Wigan) and 220,000 (Warrington)?

That's why they retained their regular services when calls at places like Penrith and Kendal (Oxenholme) became more erratic.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have never worked out what Wign and Warrington do to get so many services.

What, 1tph to London direct and one via Birmingham?
They get a few others on the east-west axis too.
They both have quite large catchments, though Warrington BQ is badly sited for rail-heading.
Warrington is one of the fastest-growing towns in the north west, with plenty of business travel.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure Didcot on the Great Western Mainline is not the centre of the universe. It does however enjoy a far superior service to that enjoyed by towns on the Trent Valley route, even to the detriment of slowing down longer distance services.

Didcot has a huge amount of Park & Ride, it must now have one of the biggest station car parks in Britain, serving a large high-income area with near-100% car ownership. It's right next to the A34, the main north-south road through Oxfordshire and Berkshire, and the train service to London is turn-up-and-go. Oxford station in the city is pretty unreachable by car, and even people who live in Oxford city itself will drive to Didcot. The station also handles a lot of connecting traffic from Swindon/Bristol/South Wales etc to Oxford itself. Yes it is a nuisance that it has slowed down the expresses, but the passenger loads waiting in both directions speak for themselves.

Oh, and with all those old GWR steam locos in the museum right next to the platforms, it is closer to the Centre of the Brunswick Green Universe than you might imagine

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have a population of 320,000 (Wigan) and 220,000 (Warrington)?

That's why they retained their regular services when calls at places like Penrith and Kendal (Oxenholme) became more erratic.

Wigan NW also acts as a Parkway station for a fairly large chunk of West Lancashire going to London.

Is that the Borough population including surrounding towns? That Wigan itself would have a population larger than MK despite being about a quarter of the size is surprising - it's not super-high density, with very little housing being more than the standard two-storey terrace or semi.

 

[6Gman]

One for the Planner.

If the Up Liverpool skipped Stafford, with the Up Manchester (via Crewe) just behind it picking up the stop instead could the Liverpool stop at Nuneaton without it causing utter chaos?

 

[pt_mad]

One for the Planner.

If the Up Liverpool skipped Stafford, with the Up Manchester (via Crewe) just behind it picking up the stop instead could the Liverpool stop at Nuneaton without it causing utter chaos?

But what about in the Northbound direction? Surely if a different stop was pencilled in on the Liverpool, it'd have to be in both directions?

 

[nuneatonmark]

I assume Darlorich was once from or is from Darlington, a town roughly the same size as Nuneaton. I am sure he'd be the first person to complain if Virgin stopped stopping there and for the London service to be replaced by a 4 coach outer-surburban EMU, once an hour, to and from London? To say that Nuneaton (the largest town or city in Warwickshire btw) is insignificant is simply stupid in every single way. There is so much pent up demand from the TV stations that a proper inter-city service plus a local service would continue the huge growth in use along the Trent Valley. The fact that they are having to go to 8 coaches and want to speed up the service to Crewe just goes to show that. If it's ok for Grantham, Kettering, Chippenham, Newark etc etc then it should be for all the main TV stations.

 

[The Planner]

One for the Planner.

If the Up Liverpool skipped Stafford, with the Up Manchester (via Crewe) just behind it picking up the stop instead could the Liverpool stop at Nuneaton without it causing utter chaos?

It theoretically looks to work and could make Ledburn work better as the Manchester would come just after the LM that crosses fasts to slows, but it needs to be reliable or it causes problems. Virgin wouldn't agree to adding 4 minutes into a Manchester though.