Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[scrapy]

The service from Mauldeth Road is absolutely awful according to the times as available at present. Moving from 29 and 31 minute gaps to 20 and 40 minutes as there's no corresponding improvement that's absolutely awful. I also frequently travel Mauldeth Road to East Didsbury and that's cut from half hourly to hourly. I'm exceptionally disappointed and I'm pretty shocked that randomly cutting our service with no quid pro quo and no consultation is considered acceptable.

Or on the glass half full side of things Mauldeth Rd has gained direct services to Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Liverpool and several other Merseyside stations, Bolton, Chorley, Preston and Blackpool. The Blackpool trains will soon be new modern class 331 trains. It still has 2 trains per hour to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport and an hourly service to Wilmslow and Crewe. Whilst the service to East Didsbury is less frequent, it is still hourly and there is still a bus service a few minutes walk away along Kingsway every 10 minutes between the two stations taking only about 5 minutes longer than the train, so the journey is still easily possible.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Or on the glass half full side of things Mauldeth Rd has gained direct services to Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Liverpool and several other Merseyside stations, Bolton, Chorley, Preston and Blackpool. The Blackpool trains will soon be new modern class 331 trains. It still has 2 trains per hour to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport and an hourly service to Wilmslow and Crewe. Whilst the service to East Didsbury is less frequent, it is still hourly and there is still a bus service a few minutes walk away along Kingsway every 10 minutes between the two stations taking only about 5 minutes longer than the train, so the journey is still easily possible.

I suspect that what Starmill and no doubt others are trying to say is that the vast majority of all passengers at Mauldeth Road want to go to Manchester City Centre. The through trains to Oxford Road and Victoria will no doubt be of benefit to many, but the connections to other northern cities are generally less important. I suspect that the majority of Mauldeth Road passengers would rather have a decent service to Manchester with connections there to other places, rather than a haphazard service which extends beyond Manchester.

 

[Mathew S]

I suspect that what Starmill and no doubt others are trying to say is that the vast majority of all passengers at Mauldeth Road want to go to Manchester City Centre. The through trains to Oxford Road and Victoria will no doubt be of benefit to many, but the connections to other northern cities are generally less important. I suspect that the majority of Mauldeth Road passengers would rather have a decent service to Manchester with connections there to other places, rather than a haphazard service which extends beyond Manchester.

With the best will in the world, they have a (very) high frequency bus service, and are within walking distance of 3 other railway stations (Burnage, Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel). There are always going to be swings and roundabouts, and to quote the great philosophers Jagger & Laurie, "you can't always get what you want."

 

[Solent&Wessex]

With the best will in the world, they have a (very) high frequency bus service,

But you have to pay to go on the bus.

But yes, in general, I tend to agree with your sentiments. Although road congestion certainly doesn't make buses that attractive.

 

[Starmill]

Or on the glass half full side of things Mauldeth Rd has gained direct services to Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Liverpool and several other Merseyside stations, Bolton, Chorley, Preston and Blackpool.

I think you've missed the point. Direct trains to Blackpool but not from it... what value does that have? Essentially zero and that's not something that could or should be considered in any sort of sensible analysis of timetabling.

With the best will in the world, they have a (very) high frequency bus service, and are within walking distance of 3 other railway stations (Burnage, Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel).

Burnage is similarly afflicted by a reduction in usability and service to nearby stations... Walking from Burnage to Levenshulme would take over half an hour so I'm not really sure how far you think walking distance is in the context of local transport?

As to using the bus, sure... except that we have a government that doesn't believe in people using public transport so it would cost twice as much to use the bus one way and the train the other. With a half-hourly service the bus would never overtake the train. Switching to the bus would mean making all of that day's trips by bus and not by train. While this might be practical it's surely the opposite of what Northern would want?

East Disbury has around 6 times the buses that Mauldeth Road does but is in line for lots more trains to stop. There are also 10 trams per hour. So I don't think this is related to buses.

As for the modernity of the rolling stock, it was already perfectly suitable modern rolling stock from the 90s and did not need replacing - however this thread is about the timetable.

I am glad you mentioned trains to Wilmslow and Crewe as these also have a journey time increase.

Finally I would expect easements to be introduced to allow doubling back between stations where this is quicker as one of the all-stations services has been needlessly withdrawn for no benefit... but will they be? Not likely!

 

[Starmill]

Oh yes while we are on the subject, journeys between Burnley and Leeds increases by 5 minutes.

I get the feeling that actively increased journey times are going to be a theme of this timetable...

 

[LOL The Irony]

I am glad you mentioned trains to Wilmslow and Crewe as these also have a journey time increase.

Probably so passengers don't complain/complain less when the slower 319's replace the superior 323's.

 

[158756]

Oh yes while we are on the subject, journeys between Burnley and Leeds increases by 5 minutes.

I get the feeling that actively increased journey times are going to be a theme of this timetable...

On the plus side the journey between Burnley and Manchester decreases by 5 minutes with the removal of stops south of Rochdale.

Why Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd have calls on the Blackpool-York trains is a mystery to me. I don't remember it being part of the franchise agreement, and elsewhere on the route efforts have been made to speed up th journey, with the stops East of Leeds disappearing. Rather strangely there's also an evening peak Preston-Blackburn service showing, removing the additional peak stops from the Blackpool-York.

 

[Philip]

Finally I would expect easements to be introduced to allow doubling back between stations where this is quicker as one of the all-stations services has been needlessly withdrawn for no benefit... but will they be? Not likely!

It hasn't been needlessly withdrawn, it has been removed in order to allow more trains to run along the Styal line; having two all-stops train per hour would lead to pathing constraints or at least a very tightly run timetable with likely potential for delays.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Now that would be perfect .... I know it is only 2 trains a day each way but that is all commuters from a small village need.

Having now looked at this properly I see there are currently 2 services in a morning and 3 in an evening.
The 0626 and 0828 services from Helsby to Victoria (with the currently missing gap at approx 0725) then the 1605, 1705 and 1805 from Victoria to Helsby. A big improvement from where we are now with no services at all to Victoria and beyond.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Could all be moot now until December 2018. http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ugh_Bolton_delayed_by_a_further_SEVEN_months/

 

[northwichcat]

I think the Northwich route services run later at Chester to accommodate the Leeds services.

Currently the Mid-Cheshire reduces in frequency so that it's around 1 one train every 90 minutes in the Manchester direction after 8pm. The franchise spec required it to become 1 train every 60 minutes from around 7pm to 11pm. While there's some missing services in OTT currently the last Chester-Manchester via Northwich is shown as being booked for a 75mph Sprinter, while the Chester to Calder Valley services are shown as being booked for a 90mph Sprinter so it looks like the last Chester-Manchester via Northwich is a return working of a Manchester-Chester via Northwich not a Leeds/Victoria-Chester via Warrington.

 

[northwichcat]

Could all be moot now until December 2019. http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ugh_Bolton_delayed_by_a_further_SEVEN_months/

Why December 2019?

However, further delays to the project mean that the engineering work cannot be completed until later this summer — meaning passengers will have to wait until the next timetable change in December until they finally see electric trains coming through Bolton.

It's worth remembering the May 2018 changes aren't just dependent on Bolton work. There's cascades from GWR, the 769 Flexs and Blackpool electrification, so some of the changes might still be able to go ahead e.g. if Blackpool is wired there's no reason why Liverpool-Blackpool can't switch to EMUs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why December 2019?

Typo Corrected

 

[Mathew S]

Why December 2019?



It's worth remembering the May 2018 changes aren't just dependent on Bolton work. There's cascades from GWR, the 769 Flexs and Blackpool electrification, so some of the changes might still be able to go ahead e.g. if Blackpool is wired there's no reason why Liverpool-Blackpool can't switch to EMUs.

Liverpool-Blackpool is, to the extent that it's an extension of Liverpool-Preston via Wigan, already largely 319s and has been for quite a while now.

And I agree, there are lots of things which can happen regardless of the state of things through Bolton. The only absolute non-starters I can think of are the journey time reductions through Bolton and switching the TPE Scottish services to that route. Leave the Northern Barrow/Windermere services via Bolton for another few months if the Scotlands have to run via Wigan, and hold off on some of the other Bolton changes, and I don't see any insurmountable issues. Assuming, and it's a big assumption, that there are sufficient DMUs to run everything else.

 

[Philip]

If the re-routeing of Scotland services via Bolton still goes ahead in May, then it could delay the TPE improvements as well if 185s have to be briefly re-deployed to cover Scotland services.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing gets postponed until December (2018 that is!), save things happening in dribs and drabs.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool-Blackpool is, to the extent that it's an extension of Liverpool-Preston via Wigan, already largely 319s and has been for quite a while now.

And I agree, there are lots of things which can happen regardless of the state of things through Bolton. The only absolute non-starters I can think of are the journey time reductions through Bolton and switching the TPE Scottish services to that route. Leave the Northern Barrow/Windermere services via Bolton for another few months if the Scotlands have to run via Wigan, and hold off on some of the other Bolton changes, and I don't see any insurmountable issues. Assuming, and it's a big assumption, that there are sufficient DMUs to run everything else.

The big variable is what services will be able to operate on the Bolton route. It's unclear if Northern will be able to provide a full service on the Bolton corridor while overrunning work is ongoing or not.

How many of the Northern enhancements are completely independent of North TPE changes? I think those might be the easiest ones to postpone but I think pretty much all the Manchester area ones aren't independent due to TPE requiring different paths for both Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[northwichcat]

If the re-routeing of Scotland services via Bolton still goes ahead in May, then it could delay the TPE improvements as well if 185s have to be briefly re-deployed to cover Scotland services.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing gets postponed until December (2018 that is!), save things happening in dribs and drabs.

Both of those options would be controversial. Re-routing Scottish TPE services via Bolton when there's no wires would leave North & South TPE short of capacity and 350s sat around doing nothing.

While, like I said in my earlier post if Northern have more trains available which can run off the wires postponing all enhancements would make it sound like they can't be arsed. It would mean there would be a significant number of train crews paid to sit around doing nothing while units are sitting in sidings doing nothing.

 

[Philip]

Both of those options would be controversial. Re-routing Scottish TPE services via Bolton when there's no wires would leave North & South TPE short of capacity and 350s sat around doing nothing.

While, like I said in my earlier post if Northern have more trains available which can run off the wires postponing all enhancements would make it sound like they can't be arsed. It would mean there would be a significant number of train crews paid to sit around doing nothing while units are sitting in sidings doing nothing.

Those additional units haven't actually arrived yet, if they were already ready in place then I agree it would be a poor move.

 

[lejog]

On the plus side the journey between Burnley and Manchester decreases by 5 minutes with the removal of stops south of Rochdale.

Why Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd have calls on the Blackpool-York trains is a mystery to me. I don't remember it being part of the franchise agreement, and elsewhere on the route efforts have been made to speed up th journey, with the stops East of Leeds disappearing. Rather strangely there's also an evening peak Preston-Blackburn service showing, removing the additional peak stops from the Blackpool-York.

I know this only too well, since I frequently take the Blackpool-York service from Hebden Bridge to Leeds and as well as increased clustering of services to Leeds, there is an increased journey time to Leeds on this service. The service will run fast from Leeds to York so end to end journey times will fall. The only reason for the extra stops I can think of is that West Yorkshire do have a provisional budget for building a large car park at Mytholmroyd, which will shift some of passengers from Hebden Bridge, but there's no date for this at the moment.

What's even more bizarre is that on Sundays, the Brighouse service does't run and the Chester service which stops at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge on weekdays skips the stations, leaving the stations with a Blackpool service but no direct services to stations between Todmorden and Manchester!

 

[northwichcat]

Those additional units haven't actually arrived yet, if they were already ready in place then I agree it would be a poor move.

We're in January and 5 extra Sprinters have arrived since the December timetable change, with 7 more expected in the next few weeks. If the 769 conversion is a success that means at least 20 extra units that Northern can use off the wires - 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car.

 

[47802]

If the re-routeing of Scotland services via Bolton still goes ahead in May, then it could delay the TPE improvements as well if 185s have to be briefly re-deployed to cover Scotland services.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing gets postponed until December (2018 that is!), save things happening in dribs and drabs.

I think you can be fairly certain that wont happen, TPE don't have the required spare Diesel rolling stock for that situation.

 

[47802]

If the 769 conversion is a success that means at least 20 extra units that Northern can use off the wires - 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car.

I reckon there is more chance of me winning a million on Lotto than a 769 appearing in service by May

 

[lejog]

The big variable is what services will be able to operate on the Bolton route. It's unclear if Northern will be able to provide a full service on the Bolton corridor while overrunning work is ongoing or not.

How many of the Northern enhancements are completely independent of North TPE changes? I think those might be the easiest ones to postpone but I think pretty much all the Manchester area ones aren't independent due to TPE requiring different paths for both Piccadilly and Victoria.

I think you're right that there's basically two categories of changes in the timetable:
1) The "Northern Hub" timetable with lots of interactions and interdependencies between services (both timetabling and rolling stock availability) which will be difficult to implement in part. TPE North changes, Calder Valley extensions, increased services from Piccadilly etc
2) Other more relatively self-contained changes e.g. Harrogate, Tyne Valley.

I'd guess that either 1) goes ahead and cuts are made to 2). Or 1) is cancelled and 2) go ahead.

 

[47802]

Personally I reckon the new TPE Timetable and most of the North West changes will be binned, possibly some of the other changes away from the North West that were originally down for December, such as additional services to Harrogate and the new Retford stoppers might still go ahead.

 

[lejog]

We're in January and 5 extra Sprinters have arrived since the December timetable change, with 7 more expected in the next few weeks. If the 769 conversion is a success that means at least 20 extra units that Northern can use off the wires - 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car.

While I'm not going to speculate further on the outcome of this delay, I will point out that the original plan for December 2017 in the Franchise Agreement assumed the arrival of 19 2car 150s from GW and internal cascades of DMUs from some or all of Blackpool, Wigan-Bolton, Stalybridge and Windermere electrification, none of which are happening.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I reckon the new TPE Timetable and most of the North West changes will be binned, possibly some of the other changes away from the North West that were originally down for December, such as additional services to Harrogate and the new Retford stoppers might still go ahead.

Just looking at the 12:00 to 12:59 period for Piccadilly services I notice the XC and ATW (South Wales) services have new paths so it might not be as simple as keep things how they are.

 

[Mathew S]

Being entirely selfish, I'd be quite happy with things staying as they are as long as the earlier and later services to/from Wigan start sooner rather than later (eg. the new morning service arriving into Manchester ~0630 which means I'll be able to use it for work rather than having to drive).
Thinking more objectively, though, I do think they should try to bring in as much of the new timetable as they can. Taking out, for example, 1tph via Bolton and the WGW-MCV 'shuttle' alone would save several diagrams surely. If nothing else, as @jcollins has already said, it would show that Northern are trying to improve services and go someway to justifying fare rises in the eyes of the public.

 

[cuccir]

If the times on OpenTrainTimes are to be believed, the early morning Saltburn/Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Darlington/Durham services are now extended to Carlisle. I think this might suggest that the Northern Connect services will be routed via the ECML rather than the Durham Coast - which is implied here, where the use of 'Durham' is a touch vague as it could refer to the city or the coast!

 

[northwichcat]

While I'm not going to speculate further on the outcome of this delay, I will point out that the original plan for December 2017 in the Franchise Agreement assumed the arrival of 19 2car 150s from GW and internal cascades of DMUs from Blackpool, Wigan-Bolton, Stalybridge and Windermere electrification, none of which are happening.

I'm not sure that's not quite correct. Wigan-Bolton was scheduled for 2018 completion while Windermere was scheduled for 2020 completion with a caveat that it wasn't a confirmed scheme.