Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Mathew S]

Apparently the final Northern timetables for the May 2018 timetable change have been delayed until 8th March, usually they would be available 12 weeks in advance of the change.

I don't think that's unreasonable, really, in the circumstances. It's only 2 weeks late, which given the horribly short notice they had of the Bolton delays seems fair enough.
I'll still be keeping my eyes on OTT/RTT for clues and changes mind

 

[Jamesrob637]

I don't think that's unreasonable, really, in the circumstances. It's only 2 weeks late, which given the horribly short notice they had of the Bolton delays seems fair enough.
I'll still be keeping my eyes on OTT/RTT for clues and changes mind

No defo not. Have incidentally checked Altrincham and it's showing an hourly train to Manchester on a Sunday in May so that must at least be going ahead

 

[childwallblues]

Apparently the final Northern timetables for the May 2018 timetable change have been delayed until 8th March, usually they would be available 12 weeks in advance of the change.

I suppose that they have to know whether the PRE-BPN electrification will be completed.

 

[323235]

No defo not. Have incidentally checked Altrincham and it's showing an hourly train to Manchester on a Sunday in May so that must at least be going ahead

We've still Stoke/Macclesfield-Blackpool trains 7 days a week at the minute via Bolton in the system, which definitely aren't happening.

 

[Mathew S]

We've still Stoke/Macclesfield-Blackpool trains 7 days a week at the minute via Bolton in the system, which definitely aren't happening.

Indeed. It doesn't (certainly from the bits I've been keeping an eye on) seem to have been updated since the news about the engineering delays. I'm assuming we'll start to see alterations/changes on there over the next few weeks, but really, we're just going to have to wait.

One question which did occur to me... if Northern aren't publishing until March 8th, are TPE still aiming to publish on schedule next week? The one timetable very much interlinking with the other, if TPE publish first it should give us at least a vague idea what will go on with Northern, in some places.

 

[Llandudno]

Has the stopping pattern on the Mid Cheshire line finally been agreed yet.
Can’t believe they are even considering the short workings to Greenbank being limited stop, whilst the through Chester trains are ‘all shacks!’

 

[59CosG95]

323s are making a return to lime st . Spoke to a Northern driver yesterday who told me they're getting 323s running into Liverpool with the Crewe -Airport - Lime St service, before the 331s arrive. Also learning the route to Crewe again.

From the WMT livery thread, which seems to mainly be full of wondering where the WMT 323s are bound, I posted a full list of the routes the Northern 323s are being cleared/re-cleared for.

I did read in issue 194 of Today's Railways UK that Northern, despite plans to replace them by the turn of the decade, were looking at new routes for 323s; these were I believe:

• Golborne Jct - Preston
• Preston - Lancaster
• Manchester & Ordsall Lane Jct Branch
• Deal Street & Edge Hill Line
• Manchester Victoria - Bolton
• Bolton - Euxton Jct
• Preston - Blackpool North
• Edge Hill Jct - Liverpool Lime Street.

The Manchester-Preston-Blackpool corridor is expected to be mainly 323-operated once complete (whenever that is); I'm assuming the 323s will be directly replaced by the 331/0s (31 3-car Civity EMUs) as they come on stream.

As per the usual caveats of change, we'll have to wait for the final timetable to be published to find out whether 323 operation is set in stone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has the stopping pattern on the Mid Cheshire line finally been agreed yet.
Can’t believe they are even considering the short workings to Greenbank being limited stop, whilst the through Chester trains are ‘all shacks!’

It isn't the primary route from Manchester to Chester, that's via Earlestown, nor will it be as it's too slow even non-stop. So it probably makes sense in terms of giving people on the line the best connectivity to Chester, plus selected stations an improved service to Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the WMT livery thread, which seems to mainly be full of wondering where the WMT 323s are bound, I posted a full list of the routes the Northern 323s are being cleared/re-cleared for.

As per the usual caveats of change, we'll have to wait for the final timetable to be published to find out whether 323 operation is set in stone.

If they're available it makes more sense to use them than 319s. They are more modern, more comfortable, quicker off the mark and hugely more reliable. Take the seats out and put 2+2 ironing boards in (and do the PRM mods) and you'd have something very decent. You might even be able to retrofit aircon using a setup similar to the Chiltern 165s.

This would be very popular among passengers whining about South East cast-offs, basically allowing EMUs with Northern Connect standards to be used on far more routes.

Yes, Northern wasn't meant to use them, but that was so they weren't taken away from West Midlands Trains if they wanted them. As they don't, it makes sense for things to change. Franchise agreements are not immutable, least of all in very small things like this if the reasons for the original plan change.

 

[Mathew S]

From the WMT livery thread, which seems to mainly be full of wondering where the WMT 323s are bound, I posted a full list of the routes the Northern 323s are being cleared/re-cleared for.

As per the usual caveats of change, we'll have to wait for the final timetable to be published to find out whether 323 operation is set in stone.

If they're available it makes more sense to use them than 319s. They are more modern, more comfortable, quicker off the mark and hugely more reliable. Take the seats out and put 2+2 ironing boards in (and do the PRM mods) and you'd have something very decent. You might even be able to retrofit aircon using a setup similar to the Chiltern 165s.

This would be very popular among passengers whining about South East cast-offs, basically allowing EMUs with Northern Connect standards to be used on far more routes.

Yes, Northern wasn't meant to use them, but that was so they weren't taken away from West Midlands Trains if they wanted them. As they don't, it makes sense for things to change. Franchise agreements are not immutable, least of all in very small things like this if the reasons for the original plan change.

Have to say, on the few occasions I've travelled on a 323 I've not thought much of them at all. Uncomfortable, poorly looked after, and that whining noise is horrific. Better than a 150 for sure, but I'd take a 319 any day.

From what's said, I assume we're expecting to see them on the Lime Street - Preston via Wigan (and thence onto Blackpool) service that's currently 319 worked. If so, I hope they get at least a cosmetic refurb and better seats first, because otherwise they'll appear to be quite a step down from the refurbished 319s. Rather than being praised as 'not a cast off' I can see a fair few people travelling Wigan-Liverpool being decidedly unimpressed at a not very well looked after Northern 323 turning up in place of a shiny white 319.

On another topic, are they (or will they be) cleared over Chat Moss? (ie. between Manchester and Golborne Junction)

 

[northwichcat]

It isn't the primary route from Manchester to Chester, that's via Earlestown, nor will it be as it's too slow even non-stop. So it probably makes sense in terms of giving people on the line the best connectivity to Chester, plus selected stations an improved service to Manchester.

My concern with the Chester being the all stops is the loadings compared to capacity of trains. If the Chester is the all-stops there's more chance of there being overcrowded trains, unless some of the Chester services are booked as 4 car. Will Northern have enough DMUs to run the Chester as 4 cars, as well as running the additional Greenbanks?

Even if the standard pattern has Chester services running at semi-fasts the smaller stations will retain a peak time and evening service to Chester, while on weekdays there's very few Chester passengers from pre-Greenbank village stations except during school holidays. On weekdays I doubt it would be viable to run 2tph from Chester-Altrincham-Manchester but on Saturdays it might be.

Another thing worth considering is Delamere Forest gets quite a lot of passengers from the Wirral visiting by train, but not that many from Greater Manchester. Maybe a faster service would change that?

 

[northwichcat]

Have to say, on the few occasions I've travelled on a 323 I've not thought much of them at all. Uncomfortable, poorly looked after, and that whining noise is horrific. Better than a 150 for sure, but I'd take a 319 any day.

From what's said, I assume we're expecting to see them on the Lime Street - Preston via Wigan (and thence onto Blackpool) service that's currently 319 worked. If so, I hope they get at least a cosmetic refurb and better seats first, because otherwise they'll appear to be quite a step down from the refurbished 319s. Rather than being praised as 'not a cast off' I can see a fair few people travelling Wigan-Liverpool being decidedly unimpressed at a not very well looked after Northern 323 turning up in place of a shiny white 319.

While regular Airport-Piccadilly shuttle passengers have been unimpressed with the 319s that have replaced their 323s with complaints being along the lines of they are old and you hear loud bangs when travelling on them (both from the doors and pantograph.) I agree the seats aren't comfortable and there's other improvements which can be made but unlike most trains on a 323 the rapid acceleration makes it feel like it's getting you there quickly even on all stops - something you don't get with other EMUs.

 

[Starmill]

If so, I hope they get at least a cosmetic refurb and better seats first, because otherwise they'll appear to be quite a step down from the refurbished 319s.

New floors and seat covers were done by the old Northern franchise, so they are in quite good shape. A number of 319s have still the much older got First Capital Connect floors and seat covers, so it's difficult to see how they could be considered a step down. Northern 319s don't have any luggage stacks either, which is a serious impediment on the Airport express services, but 323s do. A 323 is also wider, so the 3+2 is less of an impediment to personal space, with bigger bays. Your complaint about noise is bizarre - a 319 at 90 is far, far noisier than a 323. The only thing that actually is better about a 319 is as you identify, an external repaint. I have to wonder how many people care about the painting though?

I don't like 3+2 anywhere, but a 323 is the only place I've ever seen it fully utilised without people being almost crushed.

 

[59CosG95]

Have to say, on the few occasions I've travelled on a 323 I've not thought much of them at all. Uncomfortable, poorly looked after, and that whining noise is horrific. Better than a 150 for sure, but I'd take a 319 any day.

On another topic, are they (or will they be) cleared over Chat Moss? (ie. between Manchester and Golborne Junction)

I believe the plan is to clear them that way; Deal Street Jct is just east of Salford Ctl and Edge Hill's in Liverpool, so the Deal Street-Edge Hill corridor uses all of the Chat Moss route as far as Ordsall Lane Jct.

The source of the 323s' whining is the traction motors - being AC with GTO (Gate Turn-Off) Inverters, they can reach their top speed quicker than the 319s (which have slightly older DC motors with GTO Choppers). The whining is caused by the harmonic frequencies of the motors & inverters (that's the sciency bit).
As mentioned in another thread, the 319s have to be notched up from stationary in a very specific manner to straddle the fine line between "not enough power" and "too much power". The 323s meanwhile will happily accelerate at Notch 4 from a standing start.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I always thought the "sports car" acceleration sound was quite cool.

 

[Mathew S]

The only thing that actually is better about a 319 is as you identify, an external repaint. I have to wonder how many people care about the painting though?

I don't think anyone does really, but it's the impression you get. As things stand now, the 319s look newer. You and I know otherwise, but most people won't. Going from repainted 319s for old-livery 323s I don't think is the best first impression.

I believe the plan is to clear them that way; Deal Street Jct is just east of Salford Ctl and Edge Hill's in Liverpool, so the Deal Street-Edge Hill corridor uses all of the Chat Moss route as far as Ordsall Lane Jct.

The source of the 323s' whining is the traction motors - being AC with GTO (Gate Turn-Off) Inverters, they can reach their top speed quicker than the 319s (which have slightly older DC motors with GTO Choppers). The whining is caused by the harmonic frequencies of the motors & inverters (that's the sciency bit).
As mentioned in another thread, the 319s have to be notched up from stationary in a very specific manner to straddle the fine line between "not enough power" and "too much power". The 323s meanwhile will happily accelerate at Notch 4 from a standing start.

Thanks. Didn't know where Deal St was but that makes sense. Gives more options for where to use them, if nothing else, and I get the impression that flexibility is going to really matter for the next few months at least.

Grateful for the explanation as to the noise, makes sense. Personally I think it's horrid (it's actually the reason I started carrying noise cancelling headphones on train journeys) but I know otherwise won't mind it as much.

You're onto something, I think, with the idea that they might feel faster as well. The opposite of that is passengers whinging I hear all the time about 350s slowing down to take the junction at Golborne, where even though it's built into the timetable they feel like they're being delayed by the speed restriction.

 

[Mathew S]

Personally I always thought the "sports car" acceleration sound was quite cool.

It's interesting the first few times you hear it. Every morning, when you really wish you were still in bed, then it starts to get on the nerves, in my experience.

 

[Starmill]

The noise will not be for everyone. Quiet, smooth trains are generally considered a benefit. A 319 could not possibly be said to be quiet though!

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think anyone does really, but it's the impression you get. As things stand now, the 319s look newer. You and I know otherwise, but most people won't. Going from repainted 319s for old-livery 323s I don't think is the best first impression.

If you're waiting for an approaching train the front of a 323 looks fairly modern, while it could be argued the front of a 319 looks less modern than the front of a 150/2 or a 317.

 

[northwichcat]

The noise will not be for everyone. Quiet, smooth trains are generally considered a benefit. A 319 could not possibly be said to be quiet though!

Indeed. All trains make noise, it's just the type of noise and volume that varies between trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're waiting for an approaching train the front of a 323 looks fairly modern, while it could be argued the front of a 319 looks less modern than the front of a 150/2 or a 317.

Or a PEP EMU. That's because they attempted to style the 319 and 321 and so they date badly, while the more generic "two windows and a yellow gangway" look of other Mk3 and PEP EMUs is fairly timeless and found on EMUs of all ages.

 

[Mathew S]

If you're waiting for an approaching train the front of a 323 looks fairly modern, while it could be argued the front of a 319 looks less modern than the front of a 150/2 or a 317.

Not sure I agree with that, but it's subjective I guess.

The noise will not be for everyone. Quiet, smooth trains are generally considered a benefit. A 319 could not possibly be said to be quiet though!

Indeed. I much prefer the noise and feel of a 319, but that's just me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I much prefer the noise and feel of a 319, but that's just me.

To me it depends on the 319. If it's one of the ex-Thameslink long-distance units with 2+1 1st and 2+2 Standard at quite generous spacing, particularly an ex-Brighton Express 319/2, I'm with you. If it's one of the ones with 3+2 all facing seating with a heck of a lot of wasted space between the seat backs you can keep it. (LNR have all three types, and seem sadly incapable of keeping the latter on the Abbey Line where it, having no 1st, belongs).

The only thing I really dislike about 323s is that there seems to be a heck of a lot of image distortion when looking through the windows on some units. Though at least, unlike 319s, every seat is properly aligned to one.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure I agree with that, but it's subjective I guess.

Whether or not you agree the 319s have a 1980s design, while the 323s have a 1990s design.

 

[Mathew S]

Whether or not you agree the 319s have a 1980s design, while the 323s have a 1990s design.

Just because that's when they were designed doesn't dictate how modern or otherwise they appear. The 323s, imho, look like something out of the Jetsons cartoons - like what someone in the 1950s thought a 1990s train would look like. The bulbous curves look really very dated. I'm not saying that a 319 looks modern, but it looks like a train and not like a child's toy.

 

[Starmill]

I have been unable to hold a conversation with the person sat next to me on a 319 before, which has never happened on a 323.

 

[northwichcat]

Just because that's when they were designed doesn't dictate how modern or otherwise they appear. The 323s, imho, look like something out of the Jetsons cartoons - like what someone in the 1950s thought a 1990s train would look like. The bulbous curves look really very dated. I'm not saying that a 319 looks modern, but it looks like a train and not like a child's toy.

If you want a train which looks like a child's toy try the revamped fronts on the 365, the vent looking like a smile and the lights looking like eyes make it look exactly how a child's toy train would be designed!

 

[Mathew S]

If you want a train which looks like a child's toy try the revamped fronts on the 365, the vent looking like a smile and the lights looking like eyes make it look exactly how a child's toy train would be designed!

Don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh, so to speak, but having just Wikipedia'd a photo, yep, looks like it's grinning maniacally.

 

[childwallblues]

Have to say, on the few occasions I've travelled on a 323 I've not thought much of them at all. Uncomfortable, poorly looked after, and that whining noise is horrific. Better than a 150 for sure, but I'd take a 319 any day.

From what's said, I assume we're expecting to see them on the Lime Street - Preston via Wigan (and thence onto Blackpool) service that's currently 319 worked. If so, I hope they get at least a cosmetic refurb and better seats first, because otherwise they'll appear to be quite a step down from the refurbished 319s. Rather than being praised as 'not a cast off' I can see a fair few people travelling Wigan-Liverpool being decidedly unimpressed at a not very well looked after Northern 323 turning up in place of a shiny white 319.

On another topic, are they (or will they be) cleared over Chat Moss? (ie. between Manchester and Golborne Junction)

323s are not booked to operate Liverpool-Wigan-Preston-Blackpool which will be 319.They will only operate Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly-St Helens Junction-Liverpool Lime Street, sharing the service with 319s.

 

[Philip]

Is it known yet whether Northern will use 195s for the Clitheroe services?