Performance of "lumbering" Cl 40s and other early BR diesels

[Ash Bridge]

106 out of that Deltic! Can just imagine the sound of those 3,300 horses chomping at the bit!

I came across one from the early 70s with a 55 managing 115 mph in more than one location, another with an 86 touching 111 mph. near Rugby....those were the days!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Interesting how the many people rate a loco on its Hp not its traction effort. When it comes to climbing with loads its the traction effort that is more important, this is why Inverness had an allocation of 24's and 26's.
A Britannia Pacific could outrun a 9F , but a 9F could haul loads over many of the steepest grades that a Britannia would stall with

Where has anyone decried tractive effort? Nobody has said speed is the be all and all. The original post was prompted because our good poster friend Bevan P somewhat decried the Class 40s for poor top speed. And I think he's being a tad harsh. Of course tractive effort has merit, otherwise nobody would have built 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s with 4'-8" (or whatever) driving wheels. Thermal efficiency is important. Low maintenance costs are important. So are operating costs. IMO it was stupid running the Elizabethan non-stop KX to Edinburgh with crews lying on the cushions half the time and having to put them up in lodgings to boot. But BR(E) clearly thought it was worth it presumably because of the marketing blah blah.

Anyway, TE is not what this thread is about. But if you want to bring that in because Class 40s had a lot of it, and put it to good use, with examples, ....... feel free to do so. But speed has its merits, or the LNER would not have nearly bust an expensive locomotive in a successful attempt to reach 126 mph.

 

[hexagon789]

I came across one from the early 70s with a 55 managing 115 mph in more than one location, another with an 86 touching 111 mph. near Rugby....those were the days!

I've seen a record of a Shove Duff clocked at 107, but I can imagine the power of a Deltic more than capable of touching 120-odd.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It is, mind you I think that is heading down Stoke Bank at that point if anyone can confirm, although that said it appears to be well on top of its schedule at most points of the journey doesn't it?

The 96 mph is heading down Stoke, but the ... I forget, was it 92? mph south of Retford is, I think, more or less on the level.

Either way, both are darn good speeds with a Cl 40 and that load. Actually, if that run is properly timed, that's settled it for me. A Class 40 could do 90 mph on the level with 10 or 11 on. But I'd like to see another, with someone else at the stop watch to be certain.
(Thanks Mr A Bridge. You can now have a cup of cocoa.)

 

[70014IronDuke]

the Fort William sleeper in the 1970's was combined at Queen St to form the 06.00 to Mallaig, this was usually 2 sleepers , 1 FK, 1RB, 3 TSO and a BG. This was entrusted to single 27. OK WHL doesnt have high speed running but but has some tough grades.

So that was 8 bogie vehicles, probably all Mk 1s, including an RB (on Commonwealths?), so something like 275 tons, or 300 -310 tons gross?
Yes, I'd say that was a pretty decent load for a single Cl 27.

 

[70014IronDuke]

106 out of that Deltic! Can just imagine the sound of those 3,300 horses chomping at the bit!

Exciting stuff indeed - but TBH, the Class 46 run is probably more impressive, or rather, more surprsing, given the load.

 

[hexagon789]

Exciting stuff indeed - but TBH, the Class 46 run is probably more impressive, or rather, more surprsing, given the load.

I agree the 46 is definitely the more stirring run, but I have a soft spot for Deltics!

 

[dubscottie]

I did read that the 40's did 100mph+ south through Gleneagles on more than one occasion in the early 80's.

I am sure it featured in the Railway Magazine P&P section a few years back.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
When the Hymeks first came out they took over the heaviest expresses on the WR, Paddington to South Wales. D7024-39 were so assigned when new, and brought 13 coach trains over the top of the climb out of the Severn Tunnel at Patchway quite easily at 60mph, which I think would have been well beyond a Class 40. The Hymeks had taken over from Kings on these duties.
...

I wouldn't want to deny that Hymeks did some sterling efforts - exceptional perhaps for a Type 3 - but I'm afraid your statement that they took over from Kings does not match my memories at all. I was a spotter between Didcot and Reading from April 1962 on at least 10 - 12 occasions, and I never saw a King. Not once. (Of course, I was very keen to see one, but in fact, I've never, to this day, seen a King working.) I can't say they 'never' used the route in 1962, of course, but I believe by then they were used almost exclusively on the Wolverhampton and Plymouth roads. It was Castles on the S Wales trains (or sometime Halls or, more rarely, Counties, I suppose - I can't actually remember exactly what worked which trains) but then the Cl 52s and Hymeks took over.

 

[hexagon789]

I did read that the 40's did 100mph+ south through Gleneagles on more than one occasion in the early 80's.

I am sure it featured in the Railway Magazine P&P section a few years back.

100 mph is impressive for a 40

 

[randyrippley]

I wouldn't want to deny that Hymeks did some sterling efforts - exceptional perhaps for a Type 3 - but I'm afraid your statement that they took over from Kings does not match my memories at all. I was a spotter between Didcot and Reading from April 1962 on at least 10 - 12 occasions, and I never saw a King. Not once. (Of course, I was very keen to see one, but in fact, I've never, to this day, seen a King working.) I can't say they 'never' used the route in 1962, of course, but I believe by then they were used almost exclusively on the Wolverhampton and Plymouth roads. It was Castles on the S Wales trains (or sometime Halls or, more rarely, Counties, I suppose - I can't actually remember exactly what worked which trains) but then the Cl 52s and Hymeks took over.

According to Brian Reed's "Diesel Hydraulic locomotives of the Western Region", Hymeks took over from Castles on the south Wales expresses in March 1962.
He says "These trains, loading up to 13 coaches of 450 tons, had to be hauled up the six miles at 1:100 out of the Severn Tunnel followed by eleven miles up at 1:300 to Badminton. With these loads Hymeks could usually maintain a minimum of 23/25 mph at the top of the 1:100, which was as good as a Castle and well beyond the capacity of a Hall or Grange."
No mention of Kings.
He goes on to say the computed performance for a Hymek on the WofE was 490 tons London-Exeter @ 60mph start to stop, with 280 tons on a 70mph timing.

 

[hexagon789]

He goes on to say the computed performance for a Hymek on the WofE was 490 tons London-Exeter @ 60mph start to stop, with 280 tons on a 70mph timing.

Was the WoE only a 70 mph route back then?

 

[randyrippley]

Was the WoE only a 70 mph route back then?

thats a 70mph average speed, start to stop so by definition parts must have been run at a higher speed

 

[hexagon789]

thats a 70mph average speed, start to stop so by definition parts must have been run at a higher speed

I was going to say, I had thought the WoE had the standard Southern 85 mph ceiling.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That’s an excellent find. Now get back up in that loft!

Check your cold water tank while you are up there ........

 

[randyrippley]

I was going to say, I had thought the WoE had the standard Southern 85 mph ceiling.

I would have assumed he was talking about the GWR route via Westbury , not the LSWR route.

 

[hexagon789]

I would have assumed he was talking about the GWR route via Westbury , not the LSWR route.

I took it London-Exeter and WoE meant the Waterloo-Salisbury-Yeovil-Exeter route.

 

[Taunton]

I wouldn't want to deny that Hymeks did some sterling efforts - exceptional perhaps for a Type 3 - but I'm afraid your statement that they took over from Kings does not match my memories at all. I was a spotter between Didcot and Reading from April 1962 on at least 10 - 12 occasions, and I never saw a King. Not once. (Of course, I was very keen to see one, but in fact, I've never, to this day, seen a King working.) I can't say they 'never' used the route in 1962, of course, but I believe by then they were used almost exclusively on the Wolverhampton and Plymouth roads. It was Castles on the S Wales trains (or sometime Halls or, more rarely, Counties, I suppose - I can't actually remember exactly what worked which trains) but then the Cl 52s and Hymeks took over.

Here's a photo of 6003 all decked out with Red Dragon Headboards about to back onto the train at Cardiff in 1960

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_i_xoXh2tAgC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=western+region+king+cardiff+canton&source=bl&ots=t0_GlRr0lt&sig=Bx7-KPdUQq4yg0df4zJHfkVTyG8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinw5-Q8PbZAhVDGsAKHWHRAMQQ6AEIajAN#v=onepage&q=western region king cardiff canton&f=false

The Kings indeed had a long tradition on the Plymouth and Wolverhampton (and to a lesser extent Bristol) routes, but when the first hydraulics took over the WofE expresses they were redeployed for a couple of years on the South Wales expresses. I believe they also did some turns on the Plymouth-Shrewsbury North & West route.

(Of course, I was very keen to see one, but in fact, I've never, to this day, seen a King working.)

I would say the last I saw was summer 1962 at Taunton. They were all withdrawn at the end of that year, and had already been displaced by Warships on WofE schedules, but the diesels were none too reliable and steam substitutes happened from time to time. A King was notably more powerful-looking and sounding than a Castle as it blasted west from the station. First sight of one from our lair on the Fortysteps footbridge west of the station would be the distinctive plate across the front of the leading bogie as it was sat at in the Down Main platform half a mile east. They were also, to the end, kept better polished than others (Up Plymouth Ocean Liner specials apart) to the end.

... the six miles at 1:100 out of the Severn Tunnel followed by eleven miles up at 1:300 to Badminton. With these loads Hymeks could usually maintain a minimum of 23/25 mph at the top of the 1:100, which was as good as a Castle ...

I have to tell you that Hymeks came over the top of the 1 in 100 a sight faster than 23mph. Despite my more youthful years then, as they rose up into Patchway station, first increasingly audible, then just the cab top appearing over the summit, followed by the whole loco, they were going a sight faster than that. And I can still recall mentally a couple of individuals doing so - D7028, and D7032 (the first D703x Hymek I ever saw). How do I know of this sight from the west end of Patchway up platform? Because I was standing there, Ian Allan book in hand.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Check your cold water tank while you are up there ........

Used to have occasional problems with that in the past during severe winters, but it is now redundant with water supply coming directly from mains.

 

[hexagon789]

Here's a photo of 6003 all decked out with Red Dragon Headboards about to back onto the train at Cardiff in 1960

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_i_xoXh2tAgC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=western+region+king+cardiff+canton&source=bl&ots=t0_GlRr0lt&sig=Bx7-KPdUQq4yg0df4zJHfkVTyG8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinw5-Q8PbZAhVDGsAKHWHRAMQQ6AEIajAN#v=onepage&q=western region king cardiff canton&f=false

Is it me or does 6003 look decidedly grimy in that photo?

 

[hexagon789]

Used to have occasional problems with that in the past during severe winters, but it is now redundant with water supply coming directly from mains.

I'm the same, straight in from the mains. For some reason the hot water tank was never in the loft, it was in a small nook in the ceiling of my dining kitchen to the right of the fireplace. It's long gone too, but the unreachable cupboard is still there.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I'm the same, straight in from the mains. For some reason the hot water tank was never in the loft, it was in a small nook in the ceiling of my dining kitchen to the right of the fireplace. It's long gone too, but the unreachable cupboard is still there.

Ours was originally located in the bathroom but long gone now.

 

[hexagon789]

Ours was originally located in the bathroom but long gone now.

My previous house had the hot water tank in the loft, you used to have to skim the muck off every few weeks

 

[randyrippley]

I took it London-Exeter and WoE meant the Waterloo-Salisbury-Yeovil-Exeter route.

No, no non-stop diesels on that route and the Hymeks were never routinely scheduled there

 

[Taunton]

Is it me or does 6003 look decidedly grimy in that photo?

You may be looking at the wrong photo. The grimy loco is a Castle. The King (nicely polished) is the photo underneath.

 

[hexagon789]

No, no non-stop diesels on that route and the Hymeks were never routinely scheduled there

I'm getting mixed up with the Warships aren't I?

 

[hexagon789]

You may be looking at the wrong photo. The grimy loco is a Castle. The King (nicely polished) is the photo underneath.

Yep, my mistake. The King is indeed very well turned out. Wonder why the Castle isn't, generally in the early 60s the WR seemed to take very good care of its top link locos.

 

[Bevan Price]

Well I've been searching for at least the last hour in a freezing loft, been through nearly 60 magazines so far but there's a lot more to go yet. Anyway found this one for now which may be of some interest from sometime in 1971....

The 92 mph at Crow Park, and 96 mph at Essendine (on Stoke bank) were both after several miles downhill, with some gradients at around 1 in 200.

I am not trying to say that Class 40 were BAD - just that I thought that the Peaks (Classes 44 & 45) would have been a better choice, especially for the heavy WCML trains. On a quick look through some of my old logs, one of the best Class 40 performances on almost level track was 89 mph by 40077 with 10 coaches (between Darlington & York). However, the acceleration could be painfully slow - sometimes about 10 minutes to reach 75 mph, compared with about 5 minutes for a Class 45 or 46, 3.5 to 4 minutes for Class 47, and under 3.5 minutes for Class 55 (all with similar loads)

If anyone here is a member of the Railway Performance Society, they can access the on-line database which has thousands of logs, including many by steam and "modernisation era" diesel locos. (Sorry, but there is an access charge for non-members)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

My efforts at performance logging were rather poor and none of my notes survive so I can only offer anecdotal evidence.

1. Class 40. Once towards the end of their days on the famous Skegness-Manchester: after a grinding slog up to Totley Tunnel I made the effort to time the speed on the following climb up to Cowburn Tunnel. With load 10 or 11 (I think) the final couple of miles or so were run at no faster than 22mph. Yes the loco was not in good condition but it did make me think how, in performance terms at least, they cannot have been seen as any improvement on big Pacifics.

2. 45s v 47s. These shared Trans-Pennine duties during the time I was travelling over the route rather regularly. When departing Manchester eastbound or Leeds westbound I eventually realised that if departure was a little late that with a 47 there was at least a chance to make up time whereas with a 45 the lost time stayed lost. This left me with a poor opinion of the 45s which took many years to correct. The faster southern end of the Midland Main Line was always somewhat off the beaten track for me so I had few trips with 45s over it. However many timing fans have been quite adamant that on the flatter sections the 45s performed rather better above 80mph than the 47s. Presumably the same would have been true between York and Darlington or Bristol and Taunton.

3. 50s. I started spotting at Reading just as re-allocation from LMR to WR was being completed. On cold days it was the norm to stand up close to the side of locos at the end of platform 4 while Down trains awaited departure time hoping to feel a little warmth from the loco. With 47s the time taken for dispatch seemed fairly consistent but with 50s it was sometimes decidedly hurried and other times very relaxed due to early running. This suggested to me that the 50s were potentially better locos but only when in good condition. Even after refurbishment this inconsistency seemed to linger.

4. Deltics. During their final years it was common for drivers to really have a go down Stoke Bank and reports of speeds above 100mph are numerous. My best was 108mph even if only for a single 1/4 mile. No On Train Data Recorders back then!

HTIOI

 

[hexagon789]

Deltics. During their final years it was common for drivers to really have a go down Stoke Bank and reports of speeds above 100mph are numerous. My best was 108mph even if only for a single 1/4 mile. No On Train Data Recorders back then!

Would have loved to have been in one of those runs.