Largest Town with No Sunday Bus Services

[Teflon Lettuce]

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules gives an overview of domestic rules... for those that don't believe the letter of the law allows 365 day working note the wording...
"Fortnightly rest periods
Every 2 weeks you must take at least one period of 24 hours off duty."

so if you finish your 13th shift at 1359 on a saturday and start your 14th shift at 1401 on Sunday you have fulfilled the legal rest requirement

 

[Deerfold]

I thought there was a limit, too.

I have found:-
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/w...s-and-contracts/rest-breaks-at-work-overview/

A few years old but still seems to be active.

Road Transport Drivers are specifically excluded from that.

Their rules are at:

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

Whilst they must have a 24-hour rest every fortnight, it doesn't have to be a calendar day.

 

[Typhoon]

Road Transport Drivers are specifically excluded from that.

Their rules are at:

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

Whilst they must have a 24-hour rest every fortnight, it doesn't have to be a calendar day.

Thank you for this.

It does appear odd that drivers have worse conditions of service than, say, supermarket shelf stackers. However, this thread may not be the best place to discuss this.

This may well account for some operators not wanting to operate many services on a Sunday. Give drivers a Sunday off every fortnight - sorted! (Simplistic, I know.)

 

[175mph]

Thank you for this.

It does appear odd that drivers have worse conditions of service than, say, supermarket shelf stackers. However, this thread may not be the best place to discuss this.

This may well account for some operators not wanting to operate many services on a Sunday. Give drivers a Sunday off every fortnight - sorted! (Simplistic, I know.)

I'm also interested to know the exact reasons why so much of Lincolnshire, (excluding North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire) have no Sunday bus service.

One person told me it's because so many people in Lincolnshire, especially in the villages have traditionalist views/beliefs about nothing ever running on a Sunday, whereas another person told it's because there's an embargo on buses running on a Sunday.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm also interested to know the exact reasons why so much of Lincolnshire, (excluding North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire) have no Sunday bus service.

One person told me it's because so many people in Lincolnshire, especially in the villages have traditionalist views/beliefs about nothing ever running on a Sunday, whereas another person told it's because there's an embargo on buses running on a Sunday.

.......and the probable reason is that it's a remote barren wasteland that has little potential for any great number of passengers to want to go anywhere, particularly on a Sunday.

 

[175mph]

.......and the probable reason is that it's a remote barren wasteland that has little potential for any great number of passengers to want to go anywhere, particularly on a Sunday.

I mean even medium sized towns like Gainsborough, and the Interconnect 100 to Lincoln not running on a Sunday.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I mean even medium sized towns like Gainsborough, and the Interconnect 100 to Lincoln not running on a Sunday.

Robert is probably on the money. Gainsborough is not a sizeable town, limited trade and a train service to Lincoln every hour on a Sunday.

 

[Dentonian]

Robert is probably on the money. Gainsborough is not a sizeable town, limited trade and a train service to Lincoln every hour on a Sunday.

wikipedia says Gainsborough has a population of c22,000, so not big. LA stats suggest it is a compact town with most residents "within 15 minutes walk" of the town centre. Probably more pertinently, apart from Bardney, car ownership is much higher than most places with any sembelence of a Sunday service (commercial or otherwise), but as this area is some distance away from the town, it is presumably uneconomical for even a small Operator to provide a service with very limited patronage en route.

 

[Jordan Adam]

wikipedia says Gainsborough has a population of c22,000

I've not looked myself but be cautious with those population stats as the number of them are well over 2 decades old!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've not looked myself but be cautious with those population stats as the number of them are well over 2 decades old!

Not from Wikipedia but 2011 census established 20842 as population. Now guesstimated it about 22.7k - it’s not likely to be much more!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not from Wikipedia but 2011 census established 20842 as population. Now guesstimated it about 22.7k - it’s not likely to be much more!

Close enough then! I wasn't disputing the number, just putting out a "word of warning" shall we say.

For Aberdeen at least some figures say the population is around the 196K mark but these date back nearly 20 years. The population of the city now is just past 230K. So quite a big difference!

 

[overthewater]

Close enough then! I wasn't disputing the number, just putting out a "word of warning" shall we say.

For Aberdeen at least some figures say the population is around the 196K mark but these date back nearly 20 years. The population of the city now is just past 230K. So quite a big difference!

Yet the bus passengers are down and car traffic is still as bad? that is bonkers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yet the bus passengers are down and car traffic is still as bad? that is bonkers.

Close enough then! I wasn't disputing the number, just putting out a "word of warning" shall we say.

For Aberdeen at least some figures say the population is around the 196K mark but these date back nearly 20 years. The population of the city now is just past 230K. So quite a big difference!

There is an important variance/distinction - Aberdeen city area vs. Aberdeen urban area. For comparison, the 2001 for the urban area was 212k and is was estimated at 229k in 2015/6 (so just over 230k sounds about right).

Bus passenger patronage is based upon a lot more than just population growth - how are these people accommodated? Are they in difficult bands of suburban Barratt boxes? How wealthy are they? Where are they working - is that difficult to serve? How are buses given priority (if at all)? Is town centre parking free or cheap? Lots of different factors!

 

[Dentonian]

Yet the bus passengers are down and car traffic is still as bad? that is bonkers.

Welcome to Britain! All the factors TGW states are relevant, but he has forgotten the most obvious: Bus fares are going up FAR faster than both petrol/diesel for cars and general inflation. Also, services are being reduced BEFORE patronage drops. Sort of reverse "Field of Dreams" logic.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Welcome to Britain! All the factors TGW states are relevant, but he has forgotten the most obvious: Bus fares are going up FAR faster than both petrol/diesel for cars and general inflation. Also, services are being reduced BEFORE patronage drops. Sort of reverse "Field of Dreams" logic.

Ah but the change for operators is that traffic congestion is increasing (because of commercial traffic in many respects) so operators have a terrible choice. Do you a) keep the same resources and widen headways or b) keep the same headways and increase resources, knowing that you have more cost and no more revenue?

If you know the answer to that one, you really shouldn't be posting on a message board but working as a consultant as it is the bus operating equivalent of alchemy!

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm also interested to know the exact reasons why so much of Lincolnshire, (excluding North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire) have no Sunday bus service.

One person told me it's because so many people in Lincolnshire, especially in the villages have traditionalist views/beliefs about nothing ever running on a Sunday, whereas another person told it's because there's an embargo on buses running on a Sunday.

No-one is prepared to pay for it. LCC can’t afford it and Lincolnshire Road Car never really took commercial risks. (No idea if stagecoach are and better)

Following cutbacks in the early 1900s rail isn’t much better. Grimsby gets a service in the Summer. Supposed to be aimed at Cleethorpes day trippers but many actually want to use it to getting into London after the weekend.

Evenings are just as bad to be honest.

 

[Dentonian]

Ah but the change for operators is that traffic congestion is increasing (because of commercial traffic in many respects) so operators have a terrible choice. Do you a) keep the same resources and widen headways or b) keep the same headways and increase resources, knowing that you have more cost and no more revenue?

If you know the answer to that one, you really shouldn't be posting on a message board but working as a consultant as it is the bus operating equivalent of alchemy!

Notwithstanding the fact that the increased costs of congestion aren't nearly enough to justify such steep fare rises, there are two points to this:

1. The Commercial bus industry has to bear some responsibility for the increased congestion due to them pricing people off buses - don't forget these inflation busting increases have been going on for 30+ years.

2. Stagecoach Manchester (and others?) have totally undermined this argument by whinging about increased city centre congestion, which in their case mainly affects a low loaded route where fares are FAR LESS than their traditional suburban services.

Cutting services to maintain existing resources is a vicious circle - not least because the cuts "on paper" are usually at the very time services are least punctual (eg. 0930-1030 on weekdays) - and again, there doesn't seem to be a resource problem when it comes to finding buses and drivers to fight bus wars...............

 

[Jordan Adam]

Yet the bus passengers are down and car traffic is still as bad? that is bonkers.

The frequencies on most city services have improved since the 2000s and now that they've altered the services i'd say they carried more in 2017 than they did in the years previous. Aberdeen's in a tough time at the moment as there's lots of congestion and delays due to AWPR works. Myself and many others in the area suspect the bus services will heavily improve once AWPR and Broad Street open as running time will pretty significantly reduced freeing up more resources.

On a side note First Aberdeens fare have not went up that much or at all. Adult day ticket was £4 a decade ago, it's still £4. A child day was £2.70, it's now £2.50.

Anyway isn't this a little off topic for here...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Notwithstanding the fact that the increased costs of congestion aren't nearly enough to justify such steep fare rises, there are two points to this:

1. The Commercial bus industry has to bear some responsibility for the increased congestion due to them pricing people off buses - don't forget these inflation busting increases have been going on for 30+ years.

2. Stagecoach Manchester (and others?) have totally undermined this argument by whinging about increased city centre congestion, which in their case mainly affects a low loaded route where fares are FAR LESS than their traditional suburban services.

Cutting services to maintain existing resources is a vicious circle - not least because the cuts "on paper" are usually at the very time services are least punctual (eg. 0930-1030 on weekdays) - and again, there doesn't seem to be a resource problem when it comes to finding buses and drivers to fight bus wars...............

I'm sorry but why is talking about Stagecoach Manchester relevant to Gainsborough not having Sunday services? I know I'm a simple chap but I'm lost....

 

[6Gman]

I'm sorry but why is talking about Stagecoach Manchester relevant to Gainsborough not having Sunday services? I know I'm a simple chap but I'm lost....

Dentonian likes talking about Stagecoach Manchester.

Back on thread, I wonder if one reason towns in deeply rural counties (Shrewsbury, Gainsborough) seem to do so badly is because their local authorities are dominated by councillors from rural wards where bus provision really isn't an issue?

 

[Typhoon]

Dentonian likes talking about Stagecoach Manchester.

Back on thread, I wonder if one reason towns in deeply rural counties (Shrewsbury, Gainsborough) seem to do so badly is because their local authorities are dominated by councillors from rural wards where bus provision really isn't an issue?

or if it is, it is maintaining the once-a-week service that the old lady* down the road uses and says she won't support my re-election if it gets cut back.

* - substitute 'man' if it makes you feel better but in my experience more elderly women uses buses than elderly men. And they are more effective at giving those in authority a hard time, in my opinion.

 

[overthewater]

No-one is prepared to pay for it. LCC can’t afford it and Lincolnshire Road Car never really took commercial risks. (No idea if stagecoach are and better)

Following cutbacks in the early 1900s rail isn’t much better. Grimsby gets a service in the Summer. Supposed to be aimed at Cleethorpes day trippers but many actually want to use it to getting into London after the weekend.

Evenings are just as bad to be honest.

What happened to bus route fund the labour government brought in around 2001/03? didn't that have an affect on the sunday routes?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What happened to bus route fund the labour government brought in around 2001/03? didn't that have an affect on the sunday routes?

There were a programme of bids and funds allocated. However, the money was more of a pump priming exercise so when the money ran out, the question would be a) can any service fund itself commercially and b) be funded from the existing council expenditure.

Lincolnshire actually maintained their expenditure though, as operators costs were increasing, the same money paid for less.

In other counties, some services were able to continue as they had benefited with the pump priming and so were sustainable. Others would never be able to pay their way so once the money ran out, that was the death knell.

 

[richw]

Road Transport Drivers are specifically excluded from that.

Their rules are at:

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

Whilst they must have a 24-hour rest every fortnight, it doesn't have to be a calendar day.

I never realised that local bus service drivers were on the same regs as my own job as a home delivery driver.
The working time directive doesn’t apply to us. In theory we could work say a 1800-2300 followed by a 0700-1200 as keeps under the 24 hour limit. As you say the 24 hour rest rule is covered by working an early followed by a late. I’ve done such a pattern when doing loads of overtime to save for holiday spending money.

 

[RT4038]

I never realised that local bus service drivers were on the same regs as my own job as a home delivery driver.
The working time directive doesn’t apply to us. In theory we could work say a 1800-2300 followed by a 0700-1200 as keeps under the 24 hour limit. As you say the 24 hour rest rule is covered by working an early followed by a late. I’ve done such a pattern when doing loads of overtime to save for holiday spending money.

No, because the minimum rest period in the Domestic drivers hours rules is 8h30m (which 2300-0700 is insufficient) and the maximum spreadover is 16hr (which 1800-1200 busts)

 

[richw]

No, because the minimum rest period in the Domestic drivers hours rules is 8h30m (which 2300-0700 is insufficient) and the maximum spreadover is 16hr (which 1800-1200 busts)

I knew I may have missed something, my employer Keeps us where possible to working time directive as well even though not applicable.
But reading that link the 16 hour spread only applies to single days. 8.5 hours required between days so a finish at 2300 starting at 0730 is ok up to 3 days a week. I don’t think I’d want to be doing that time I get home and get to sleep!

 

[RT4038]

I knew I may have missed something, my employer Keeps us where possible to working time directive as well even though not applicable.
But reading that link the 16 hour spread only applies to single days. 8.5 hours required between days so a finish at 2300 starting at 0730 is ok up to 3 days a week. I don’t think I’d want to be doing that time I get home and get to sleep!

2300 to 0730 as a rest period (up to 3 times per week) is ok. These rules were written many years ago when it was customary for most staff to live within walking/cycling distance from their Depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I knew I may have missed something, my employer Keeps us where possible to working time directive as well even though not applicable.
But reading that link the 16 hour spread only applies to single days. 8.5 hours required between days so a finish at 2300 starting at 0730 is ok up to 3 days a week. I don’t think I’d want to be doing that time I get home and get to sleep!

Working time directive and drivers' hours rules are not the same thing.

 

[overthewater]

In other counties, some services were able to continue as they had benefited with the pump priming and so were sustainable. Others would never be able to pay their way so once the money ran out, that was the death knell.

Bedfordshire comes to mind? They wasted the money on new services to compete with Stagecoach routes didn't they?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bedfordshire comes to mind? They wasted the money on new services to compete with Stagecoach routes didn't they?

I don't know about that.

However, I know that places like North Yorkshire spent money on ridiculous stuff like a Sunday service from Richmond to Barnard Castle with two return journeys when the M-S daytime was only four journeys!

Similarly, Somerset had an extensive network of Sunday services introduced. Stuff like Taunton to Wellington still survives but Yeovil to Chard was bizarre.