Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[hwl]

I would think that it is trenitalia that have withdrawn, as they're focusing on the West Coast Partnership and East Midlands bids

That is my understanding too _ see to remember a quiet announcement.

 

[KashmireHawker]

That was indeed confirmed on August 10 - http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...s-out-of-south-eastern-franchise-contest.html

 

[Alteran Ancient]

So we're now down to three:

• Stagecoach + Alstom
• Abellio + EJRC + Mitsui
• Govia

Govia as-is have not done too bad a job since David Statham took over from Charles Horton, IMO. He has managed to nudge Southeastern off the bottom of the NRPS, despite the locals of Kent and SE London being a highly vocal and irritable bunch.

That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Stagecoach won it over Govia. Abellio's mega-consortium, however, I'm not too sure about.

 

[hwl]

So we're now down to three:

• Stagecoach + Alstom
• Abellio + EJRC + Mitsui
• Govia

Govia as-is have not done too bad a job since David Statham took over from Charles Horton, IMO. He has managed to nudge Southeastern off the bottom of the NRPS, despite the locals of Kent and SE London being a highly vocal and irritable bunch.

That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Stagecoach won it over Govia. Abellio's mega-consortium, however, I'm not too sure about.

Abellio's mega consortium took over the LM franchise last year so not an unknown quantity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A Stagecoach/Alstom consortium? Now there's something I wasn't expecting.

There are probably 2 sides to this.
Alstom are keen (desperate, even) to get back into the UK new rolling stock market.
I imagine they were working with Stagecoach (only?) on the SE bid anyway.
Meanwhile Stagecoach has money troubles, compounded maybe with credibility concerns after VTEC, and Alstom as an equity partner addresses both issues.
There is also the prospect (though not for this procurement) of Alstom and Siemens merging their rolling stock capability.

 

[AlexNL]

Alstom are keen (desperate, even) to get back into the UK new rolling stock market.
I imagine they were working with Stagecoach (only?) on the SE bid anyway.

Alstom have offered their new UK EMU design to FirstGroup for the Anglia bid.

 

[urpert]

Remember Alstom/Siemens joint venture? More desiros? More HS1 stock?

458s for Vic - Orpington!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Would be good If Stagecoach got South Eastern, when they ran South Western their trains were clean, the stations always staffed and clean (Chessington branch was/is a bit creepy tbh)

My main hopes for South Eastern services from 2022 (some of these should happen now quite frankly)

- 10tph on the North Kent line, off peak
Plus keeping 2tph for Charing Cross.

- Ten car trains

- The Maidstone to London via Abbey Wood service

- HS1 being splintered off on its own, so that faster patterns can be reintroduced along the classic mainline services.

- Cleaner trains on the metro routes, The Networkers are looking extremely grotty looking and the smell is awful, the Southern trains, some of which are even older than the networkers by around a decade look cleaner and smarter.

- either 10 cars on Vic-Orp line or 6tph on the line.

- Disabled access has to improve at some stations, I recall Penge East being a culprit for this.

That's basically it really

 

[ScotGG]

More staff are badly needed at many London stations which still have high frequencies into the night. Even the big stations are ghost towns at night. Not welcoming places to be and never going to get people out of cars. And they must lose a ton in revenue as all barriers open.

Also, join the TfL fare scale like c2c over the river and other London area TOCs. If prices keep growing between SE Metro and DLR/Crossrail/Tube then SE will lose an ever increasing number of passengers.

Clean the Networkers! The embedded filth is disgusting and off-putting to people. Again, never going to get people out of cars with Networkers being so grotty. How GoVia let them get so bad without even a monthly clean of embedded filth is a big mark against them continuing for me. They can't be bothered.

The scope for off-peak growth is massive in London. Yet the current operator does all it can to put people off.

 

[Simon11]

I presume that Alstom won't provide any stock for the other bidders if they win?

 

[hwl]

If prices keep growing between SE Metro and DLR/Crossrail/Tube then SE will lose an ever increasing number of passengers.

DfT very carefully tied Crossrail into the National Rail fare structures controlled by them so Crossrail fare price rises will mirror the TOCs (TfL's finance team probably quite pleased by this?)

 

[physics34]

im hoping govia win it so that they dont feel the need to bid for Southern in 2021!!

 

[Bromley boy]

never going to get people out of cars.

I agree with your entire post apart from this bit...

Who on earth, apart from taxi drivers and bus drivers, drives into central London these days?!

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

im hoping govia win it so that they dont feel the need to bid for Southern in 2021!!

why would that stop them?

 

[ScotGG]

I agree with your entire post apart from this bit...

Who on earth, apart from taxi drivers and bus drivers, drives into central London these days?!

Not what I meant but local journey eg Belvedere to Woolwich to shop, or Mottingham to Lewisham, or Albany Park to Dartford. Short trips to buusy suburban centres. Trains need to compete with cars to help clear clogged up roads.

 

[ScotGG]

DfT very carefully tied Crossrail into the National Rail fare structures controlled by them so Crossrail fare price rises will mirror the TOCs (TfL's finance team probably quite pleased by this?)

So Woolwich and Abbey Wood will see the most expensive fares (excluding Heathrow), as the other branches are on TfL fare scale? Eg Liverpool Street to Woolwich (Z4) would be £3.10 yet Liverpool Street to Southall (Z4) will be £2.80 and Liverpool Street to Ilford also £2.80? That's bloody unfair if so. And that's off-peak so peak time differences would be more.

Twice a day, three times a week if working part time and that's a hefty amount over a year.

 

[hwl]

So Woolwich and Abbey Wood will see the most expensive fares (excluding Heathrow), as the other branches are on TfL fare scale? Eg Liverpool Street to Woolwich (Z4) would be £3.10 yet Liverpool Street to Southall (Z4) will be £2.80 and Liverpool Street to Ilford also £2.80? That's bloody unfair if so. And that's off-peak so peak time differences would be more.

Twice a day, three times a week if working part time and that's a hefty amount over a year.

No they tied all the Crossrail branches to the national rail fare structures - The (DfT and HMT) saw the potential for TfL to do a fares freeze or similar well over a decade ago so enacted defences against it.
Notice that the fares have yet to be published and will go up annual in line with DfT franchise controlled ones

 

[Mikey C]

Not what I meant but local journey eg Belvedere to Woolwich to shop, or Mottingham to Lewisham, or Albany Park to Dartford. Short trips to buusy suburban centres. Trains need to compete with cars to help clear clogged up roads.

If people are doing those journeys to do major shops, the car is a lot more convenient. I doubt cleaner trains would make a significant difference.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

No they tied all the Crossrail branches to the national rail fare structures - The (DfT and HMT) saw the potential for TfL to do a fares freeze or similar well over a decade ago so enacted defences against it.
Notice that the fares have yet to be published and will go up annual in line with DfT franchise controlled ones

But national rail is in turn tied to tfL within the zone system which is the point I think the previous posters were trying to make.

 

[absolutelymilk]

A bit late, but the ITT was released at the end of last year and calls for

running longer, more modern trains with better Wi-Fi connectivity.

https://www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/transport/major-shake-up-for-southeastern-rail-1-8271321

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a lot more on the ITT in this thread, which started a bit after this one but became the more current discussion:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southeastern-franchise-competition.148833/page-3#post-3220196

 

[urpert]

Incidentally, I’m seeing a lot more Southeastern stock of all kinds in service covered in graffiti - something that has been quite unusual in recent years. Giving up early or just particularly under attack by the vandals at the moment?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Incidentally, I’m seeing a lot more Southeastern stock of all kinds in service covered in graffiti - something that has been quite unusual in recent years. Giving up early or just particularly under attack by the vandals at the moment?

Traditionally, there has been that desire to take any "tagged" or vandalised trains out of service as soon as it is noticed, in order to avoid "parading" the graffiti around in public.

Southeastern's fleet is already stretched to capacity as is, so when you get a particularly bad spate of attacks as we're currently seeing (potentially attributable to a reduction in visible policing, but that's for another topic), they're left with no alternative except to run trains in service, with the "urban artwork" on display. The only exception being if the end cabs are obscured by the graffiti as a result - and even then, I could see them coupling those affected cab ends to try and avoid the problem until the mess can be cleaned up at the weekend.

 

[ComUtoR]

Southeastern's fleet is already stretched to capacity as is, so when you get a particularly bad spate of attacks as we're currently seeing (potentially attributable to a reduction in visible policing, but that's for another topic), they're left with no alternative except to run trains in service, with the "urban artwork" on display. The only exception being if the end cabs are obscured by the graffiti as a result - and even then, I could see them coupling those affected cab ends to try and avoid the problem until the mess can be cleaned up at the weekend.

This is not the reason for the graffiti. As has been discussed in another thread this is related to a different issue.

 

[rebmcr]

This is not the reason for the graffiti. As has been discussed in another thread this is related to a different issue.

Perhaps you could point readers in the direction of that thread?

 

[Cletus]

This is the recent thread.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-465-grafitti.161670/#post-3368561

 

[Bromley boy]

This is not the reason for the graffiti. As has been discussed in another thread this is related to a different issue.

Perhaps you could point readers in the direction of that thread?

The TLDR version is there have been “issues” with cleaners and their access to the units in depots has been restricted. Hence the graffiti isn’t being cleaned off as regularly as normal.

 

[jon0844]

Over in GN land, graffiti and etching seems to be back in fashion. I assume it's a problem all over.

Even stations are getting tagged but it's usually quick and easy to remove and hopefully helps discourage more attacks.

 

[HH]

The TLDR version is there have been “issues” with cleaners and their access to the units in depots has been restricted. Hence the graffiti isn’t being cleaned off as regularly as normal.

Issues with cleaners being safety issues with serious consequences.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

And also the lack of toilets that’s been going on for months due to ongoing depot safety issues which has quite frankly been going on for years... this is why I would like to see some sort of change within the franchise. SE and Govia (on GTR) for that matter are symbolic for their lack of investment or modernisation and outdated practices. Surely they could provide tanking equipment at terminal stations such as Victoria or Charing Cross like a lot of other operators can manage. It would be good to see Stagecoach take over as they have experience running major intercity operators well and not just low quality commuter services.