Are most countries wrong for putting bus stations next to rail stations?

[radamfi]

People reading this only familiar with British transport may be surprised that bus stations outside the UK are usually at the rail station abroad, even if the rail station is not in the town centre.

Should other countries follow the British example and relocate bus stations to town centres?

If you are from outside the UK, does the British fashion for bus stations away from rail stations seem strange?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think "it depends", to be honest. There are several models that work. If the railway station is away from town, a cross-city corridor model with everything running along a corridor between the railway station and the central business district/shopping area can work well - it does work in MK. This is actually quite like a bus version of the German S-Bahn model.

A similar but slightly different model can work in towns with a city centre ring road taking in the shopping area and station - buses enter the ring road, do a loop and go back out on the same route.

Both of these models require layover to be at the outer end.

The model that is a typical British nuisance, though, is one like Preston where the bus station is miles from the railway station and is the centre of a simple star network.

 

[43096]

Should other countries follow the British example and relocate bus stations to town centres?

Having spent the last week or so in Switzerland, it is a massive “no” to that idea. An integrated transport system should have bus and train services located in the same place with connections to/from buses onto/off the train. It’s a complete no-brainer to do that and it works. The Swiss system (and it is that) is so far ahead of the UK it is embarrassing.

 

[yorksrob]

I often wish that Leeds and Wakefield bus stations were next to City and Westgate stations respectively.

 

[30907]

I'm with Bletchleyite on this.
Ideally, of course, out-of-town buses should serve both (I don't think you can expect every urban bus to), but it's not always a realistic option.

I was irritated when Blackburn bus station was moved into the town centre, but pleased when Accrington got its new one nearer to the rail station, but I suspect the majority of users felt the opposite (apart from welcoming decent facilities in both cases).
Two more examples from my area:
Clitheroe has an excellent interchange - I have no idea where buses terminated before that, but there isn't an obvious town centre location.
Skipton - the subsidised Grassington bus detours to serve the station, and I suspect this pays for itself, the Colne bus passes outside anyway, but that's it.

All this is true in mainland Europe as well.
Switzerland and Germany do exceptionally well at co-location, but that must partly be because they put lots of money into public transport - and because traditionally the postal sorting office was at the station, and rural buses were postbuses.
Other countries are more hit and miss IME, though I am not an extensive rural bus user.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chester has recently relocated its "Bus Exchange" from near the Town Hall (north/west of the centre) to the former cattle market at Gorse Stacks (east of the centre).
This is a bit closer to the railway station out to the east, but is still further than you want to walk, along busy streets.
However most of the "Welsh" bus services (Arriva) continue to thread the city centre by the Roman Forum and loop conveniently down City Road past the railway station.
But you do have to be careful getting on a bus which simply says "Chester".
The commercial city centre shuttle from the station ("Inter The City" ), which replaced the free city/railway funded service for rail ticket holders, still runs.

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany has really an unser developed bus station network with little comfort. This is because the idea of long distance buses as an alternative
to trains is relatively new.
Cologne even moved the bus station out of town to both the Airport and the neighbouring town of Leverkusen.

I think its positive to have it at a rail station If the bus service is complimentary as Translink do it in Northern Ireland.
Martin

 

[radamfi]

Germany has really an unser developed bus station network with little comfort. This is because the idea of long distance buses as an altrraltern to trains is relatively new.
Cologne even moved the bus station out of town to both the Airport and the neighbouring town of Leverkusen.

I should have clarified that I was talking about local buses rather than long distance bus express services, which are normally referred to as "coaches" in British English.

 

[duesselmartin]

In that case they compliment each other and act as a feeder service. That only works If there is a multitude of connections from the rail station.

However in countries where rail does not play a great role, it might be wise to locate it at a central square or a coach station, depending on geography and local travel needs.

 

[radamfi]

Having spent the last week or so in Switzerland, it is a massive “no” to that idea. An integrated transport system should have bus and train services located in the same place with connections to/from buses onto/off the train. It’s a complete no-brainer to do that and it works. The Swiss system (and it is that) is so far ahead of the UK it is embarrassing.

But how do you rebut the argument put forward by proponents of the British system that more people go to the town centre than the rail station?

 

[EAD]

But how do you rebut the argument put forward by proponents of the British system that more people go to the town centre than the rail station?

I think you are missing out the system part here. Most continental towns (certainly those on the Germanic model) will have integrated regional ticketing. On that basis it does not matter about quite where or even if you have a bus station, but rather how easily you can complete your journey cross mode to where you want to go. Having routes passing close to the station clearly aids interchange. In the UK outside of conurbations people are not on cross modal rail/bus tickets hence the bus network is treated as distinct.

 

[radamfi]

I think you are missing out the system part here. Most continental towns (certainly those on the Germanic model) will have integrated regional ticketing. On that basis it does not matter about quite where or even if you have a bus station, but rather how easily you can complete your journey cross mode to where you want to go. Having routes passing close to the station clearly aids interchange. In the UK outside of conurbations people are not on cross modal rail/bus tickets hence the bus network is treated as distinct.

Supporters of the British system (for example on the Buses & Coaches section) are not particularly interested in integrated ticketing along the German/Swiss model and don't like the idea of buses doing extra mileage travelling to the rail station. There is even objection to the relocation of Bolton bus station to the rail station even though it isn't really far from the town centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Germany has really an unser developed bus station network with little comfort. This is because the idea of long distance buses as an alternative
to trains is relatively new.
Cologne even moved the bus station out of town to both the Airport and the neighbouring town of Leverkusen.

I think its positive to have it at a rail station If the bus service is complimentary as Translink do it in Northern Ireland.
Martin

I think there is a difference between a "bus station" and a "coach station" here. What you have in Germany is coach stations. Rarely are there city centre bus stations because you have a much more developed local rail network which local buses feed instead of penetrating the city centre, and most that do do so just stop at roadside stops. You can probably imagine our bus stations to be a much bigger version of the kind of interchanges you get at major U- and S-Bahn stations.

 

[EAD]

I think there is a difference between a "bus station" and a "coach station" here. What you have in Germany is coach stations. Rarely are there city centre bus stations because you have a much more developed local rail network which local buses feed instead of penetrating the city centre, and most that do do so just stop at roadside stops. You can probably imagine our bus stations to be a much bigger version of the kind of interchanges you get at major U- and S-Bahn stations.

Thanks - that is what I was getting at as well alongside the integrated ticketing. It of course varies by town, but it is about the network and services.

As for the point of UK bus station supporters, radamfi, well that is based again on our system. Private operators setting fares and owning the bus stations (often). It is a different mindset. If you design the system around the user and interconnectivity this falls away. If you want to make money running buses then you run a number of routes from a bus station (preferably one you own) even if you have to grant access to others (see the CMA remedies in bus merger cases for example).

 

[radamfi]

Integrated buses and trains in a big city is a no-brainer, although supporters of the British system don't see it that way. But even in small towns, the Germans have full on integration. Taking Zittau near the Czech border as an example, it has four railway stations, all of them equidistant from the town centre but none of them very close.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/50.8936/14.8115

If you look at the transport map, the buses all serve both the main railway station and the town centre by an elaborate web of routes.

https://www.zvon.de/de/dnl/sv_zi_171210.5477.pdf

That would never happen in a British town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would never happen in a British town.

Umm, it does, you know:

https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/46255/Urban Map 2017 Jul.pdf

Mind you, apart from the lack of integrated ticketing which means the trains are underused for internal journeys, MK's setup is very Continental looking indeed - for instance buses in pride of place right outside the railway station rather than hidden away as more usual for the UK - and the "Bahnhofsvorplatz" (as you might call it, well, it's really called Station Square) is very German looking too, right down to the presence of the ubiquitous clock-on-a-stick and flags. Just needs some tram lines and you'd be near enough there.

Tell me this isn't in Germany or the Netherlands when you first look at it (though it's been changed a fair bit since this photo I think it illustrates it well and is one of the better ones I can find):

Milton Keynes Station Square

 

[Ianno87]

Umm, it does, you know:

https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/46255/Urban Map 2017 Jul.pdf

Mind you, apart from the lack of integrated ticketing which means the trains are underused for internal journeys, MK's setup is very Continental looking indeed - for instance buses in pride of place right outside the railway station rather than hidden away as more usual for the UK - and the "Bahnhofsvorplatz" (as you might call it, well, it's really called Station Square) is very German looking too, right down to the presence of the ubiquitous clock-on-a-stick and flags. Just needs some tram lines and you'd be near enough there.

Tell me this isn't in Germany or the Netherlands when you first look at it (though it's been changed a fair bit since this photo I think it illustrates it well and is one of the better ones I can find):

Milton Keynes Station Square

Of course, the original "bus station" for MK is on the diagonal opposite side of station square (most definitely hidden away, and a terrible waiting environment with a high roof and no walls), and shows how the attitude to buses has changed in MK since the place was first planned out (buses clearly being something of an afterthought)

I agree that the front of station arrangement works well, especially now there are proper shelters, and a decent number of MK local routes serve it, as well as the X4, X5, X7, 99 etc for longer distance connections.

Just need an operator a bit less lacksadaisical in its approach to running the local network than Arriva...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact it’s actually MKC railway station that is the afterthought! At the time Wolverton and Bletchley were considered adequate. There was even an aborted plan to rename to MK North and South.

 

[175mph]

People reading this only familiar with British transport may be surprised that bus stations outside the UK are usually at the rail station abroad, even if the rail station is not in the town centre.

Should other countries follow the British example and relocate bus stations to town centres?

If you are from outside the UK, does the British fashion for bus stations away from rail stations seem strange?

I'm surprised nobody's yet mentioned Hull Interchange, I use it on an almost regular basis, the train platforms and the bus bays are a minutes walk from each other. Even before the 2004 to 2007 rebuild, the old bus station wasn't too far away from the trains, albeit not yet all under one roof as is the case now.

 

[RT4038]

Depends on the geography of the town, and whether the local bus network is to operate commercially or not.
In my town, the railway station is situated about three quarters of a mile away from the town centre, and the road network in the area of the station is constrained by the railway itself, and the quantity of narrow streets with Victorian terraced housing and on street parking. There is no space for a bus station near to the station building - the buses would have to use the existing taxi rank and short term 'drop-off' car parking, or one of the station car park, any of which would be extremely unpopular with those users and the railway. Two bus routes currently go nearly past the station. For the remainder of the local routes, on the existing frequencies, to include the station I would estimate an additional 4 buses would be required, which would cost about £750k per annum to operate. Would these additional costs generate that kind of revenue? I doubt it. Would a commercial operator take that risk? No.
Would I like the bus and train networks to be integrated? Yes. Do I want to pay the costs of it? No! There lies the different mindsets between us and some of our continental cousins.

 

[radamfi]

I'm surprised nobody's yet mentioned Hull Interchange, I use it on an almost regular basis, the train platforms and the bus bays are a minutes walk from each other. Even before the 2004 to 2007 rebuild, the old bus station wasn't too far away from the trains, albeit not yet all under one roof as is the case now.

Hull station isn't far from the town centre and is right next to a shopping centre, so there would be little objection to this interchange from the advocates of the British style of bus operation.

 

[175mph]

Hull station isn't far from the town centre and is right next to a shopping centre, so there would be little objection to this interchange from the advocates of the British style of bus operation.

One other example albeit not as good as there is a road to cross, in Lincoln, with it's new bus interchange being right across from it's train station.

 

[radamfi]

One other example albeit not as good as there is a road to cross, in Lincoln, with it's new bus interchange being right across from it's train station.

Again, in the city centre, so not very controversial. Other than Milton Keynes Central, is there an example of a British bus station at a railway station far from the town centre where all or most buses go? That's the difference between the UK and abroad. Even if the railway station is a long way from the town centre, most if not all buses go there, other than in big cities where there is comprehensive mesh of services.

 

[route101]

Lanark is next to the railway station and so is Partick .

 

[radamfi]

Lanark is next to the railway station and so is Partick .

But both are in the town centre.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I think Bath bus and railway stations are near each other. Surely it makes sense for bus stations or stops to be bear railway stations.

 

[radamfi]

I think Bath bus and railway stations are near each other. Surely it makes sense for bus stations or stops to be bear railway stations.

Bath rail station is in the town centre. The question is whether bus stations should be next to the rail station when the rail station isn't in the town centre.

 

[Ianno87]

Again, in the city centre, so not very controversial. Other than Milton Keynes Central, is there an example of a British bus station at a railway station far from the town centre where all or most buses go? That's the difference between the UK and abroad. Even if the railway station is a long way from the town centre, most if not all buses go there, other than in big cities where there is comprehensive mesh of services.

Bolton station is fairly peripheral to the town centre, and now has the new bus station colocated with it - a good 10-15 minute walk to the other side of town, but quite a few routes (particularly northwards out of town) loop round other town centre stops.

There's some examples of where you have a smaller bus 'interchange' by a railway station, a main bus station (or centralised stops) in the centre, and buses connecting them.

Cambridge is a good example of this, and functions well, helped by lots of people arriving by train continuing by bus due to the distance to the city centre (Cambridge is pretty unusual in this respect) - at least 30 buses or so per hour connect the two via the "stammstrecke" (Hills Rd) on the 1, 3, 7, Busway A and Babraham Park & Ride, plus the U via Trumpington Street.

 

[TheSeeker]

Depends on the geography of the town, and whether the local bus network is to operate commercially or not.

This seems to be the key. In my town in Belgium the mainline goes through the centre of the town and the bus station is directly adjacent. Almost like a fifth platform. You can step from train to bus in a couple of meters. The frequency of the bus service is quite low though. In Brussels you can usually stand at a bus stop without checking times and one will come along in a few minutes. Out here in the sticks some services are hourly and you have to plan ahead.

 

[tbtc]

People reading this only familiar with British transport may be surprised that bus stations outside the UK are usually at the rail station abroad, even if the rail station is not in the town centre.

Should other countries follow the British example and relocate bus stations to town centres?

If you are from outside the UK, does the British fashion for bus stations away from rail stations seem strange?

Do you mean "bus stations outside the UK" or "bus stations in the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland" (which are apparently the only countries outside the UK, since they are the only ones that we get compared to)?

I have no idea whether there are any other countries with public transport as the only ones ever discussed on the Forum are the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland - presumably France/ Spain/ Italy/ USA etc don't have public transport, so we can't use them as benchmarks? Or is it that there are just three countries where they do have perfect public transport and we can only ever compare ourselves to them?

As for bus stations... it really depends on the market. Some towns/ cities require them, some don't. Some have such big city centres that they have had several over the years, some large places only have a "coach" station. This kind of "one size fits all" policy doesn't help.

The town I grew up in had a bus station that all local routes ran through - there was maybe a three minute penalty for the diversion - but over the years fewer and fewer of the "town service" kind of routes served it, as it wasn't worth delaying "local" passengers compared to the lower number of "interchanging" passengers. And that's without worrying about a train station - fair enough if the train station is relatively centre to town but it'd be a waste of time diverting all local buses past the train station in somewhere like Leicester or Bristol.

In Sheffield, where I now live, the number of buses running past/through the bus station ("Interchange") has fallen significantly over the years as operators realise that most passengers would prefer a service through the heart of the city (to one that avoids the main shopping streets in order to get closer to the train station).

But the geography and demands in each large conurbation are different - trying to impose something that works elsewhere isn't always going to work.