Greenford branch

[Ianno87]

More likely to just skip Greenford and go to West Ruislip via Greenford South Jct? Don't think that would require any additional signals/ pointwork at least heading northbound.

Thanks to whoever posted the link to the consultation too. Will watch on with interest!

Transferring it to the Chiltern franchise doesn't by default mean that the service will evolve from anything other than the present Greenford-West Ealing shuttle. It's just a means of supplying a DMU or two for the service. Nothing more.

 

[SWT_USER]

Transferring it to the Chiltern franchise doesn't by default mean that the service will evolve from anything other than the present Greenford-West Ealing shuttle. It's just a means of supplying a DMU or two for the service. Nothing more.

Sure - I understand that. I would suggest that it makes it far more likely than if the service remains with GWR though.

 

[SWT_USER]

Is it really a 'disgrace'? It is just a case of using resources for the greater number of people - the limit being the two track railway needed to ensure maintenance access. TPTB have decided that they don't want 'fast' trains between Reading and London Paddington to take upward of 1 hour to complete their journeys on Sundays while still ensuring that the larger intermediate stations can have a stopping service and that means that local stops at the smallest stations can't all be provided.

A train calling at all stations between Slough and London Paddington takes about 40 minutes. Even if you flight services, as they do, on Sundays, putting in extra stops is likely to cause other users of the line to have a longer journey.

What is the engineering access once Crossrail is built? Will there still be two track railway over stretches of the line between Reading and Paddington?

No trains do this apart from maybe a couple of early morning/ late evening services so its irrelevant really, just requires a Heathrow Connect to stop - I can't remember if these are half hourly or not on Sundays but if so you could stop alternatly at West Ealing or Hanwell and Acton.

 

[matt_world2004]

More likely to just skip Greenford and go to West Ruislip via Greenford South Jct? Don't think that would require any additional signals/ pointwork at least heading northbound.

Thanks to whoever posted the link to the consultation too. Will watch on with interest!

There are quite significant loadings between WR , Greenford/Northolt who would be better served by having the higher frequencies that this train will bring to these stations,

 

[700007]

The station figures on the Greenford line have unfortunately dropped at all 5 stations on the line, in some cases quite badly. Not having a direct, clock face train with poor and unreliable connections is not doing good for the line.

 

[JonathanH]

The station figures on the Greenford line have unfortunately dropped at all 5 stations on the line, in some cases quite badly. Not having a direct, clock face train with poor and unreliable connections is not doing good for the line.

However, in its favour they have halved the cost of rolling stock and traincrew for the line, increased the capacity for passengers from other stations and therefore don't need as much income from Greenford line passengers.

 

[700007]

However, in its favour they have halved the cost of rolling stock and traincrew for the line, increased the capacity for passengers from other stations and therefore don't need as much income from Greenford line passengers.

With the Elizabeth line coming soon to West Ealing, surely with a small bit of investment and love into the line, revenue on the line could grow easily?

 

[swt_passenger]

With the Elizabeth line coming soon to West Ealing, surely with a small bit of investment and love into the line, revenue on the line could grow easily?

You would hope so. Making only one change there (at West Ealing) for many central London destinations would be no worse than the single change at Paddington under the previous setup.

 

[Wirewiper]

Is it really a 'disgrace'? It is just a case of using resources for the greater number of people - the limit being the two track railway needed to ensure maintenance access. TPTB have decided that they don't want 'fast' trains between Reading and London Paddington to take upward of 1 hour to complete their journeys on Sundays while still ensuring that the larger intermediate stations can have a stopping service and that means that local stops at the smallest stations can't all be provided.

A train calling at all stations between Slough and London Paddington takes about 40 minutes. Even if you flight services, as they do, on Sundays, putting in extra stops is likely to cause other users of the line to have a longer journey.

What is the engineering access once Crossrail is built? Will there still be two track railway over stretches of the line between Reading and Paddington?

The GWR timetable has been deliberately designed as a two-track railway service during evenings and on Sundays for some years, to allow for both electrification and Crossrail works to take place whilst keeping total closures to a minimum. With both projects nearing completion now, in the near future the GWR main line will be able to be operated as a four-track railway again and Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line will have their Sunday services.

At present, when a two-track railway is operated on Saturdays trains also skip these three stations (and usually the Greenford branch is suspended too), and rail tickets are accepted on local buses in the area as well as on the Central Line between Ealing Broadway, North Acton and Greenford. I imagine this will be put in place again whenever needed.

 

[itfcfan]

The GWR timetable has been deliberately designed as a two-track railway service during evenings and on Sundays for some years, to allow for both electrification and Crossrail works to take place whilst keeping total closures to a minimum. With both projects nearing completion now, in the near future the GWR main line will be able to be operated as a four-track railway again and Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line will have their Sunday services.

At present, when a two-track railway is operated on Saturdays trains also skip these three stations (and usually the Greenford branch is suspended too), and rail tickets are accepted on local buses in the area as well as on the Central Line between Ealing Broadway, North Acton and Greenford. I imagine this will be put in place again whenever needed.

That's very welcome news - do you have a source for that? How long ago was the line out of Paddington towards Reading operated as a four-track railway on Sundays? For as long as I can remember, Heathrow Connect has not stopped at West Ealing or Hanwell on Sundays.

 

[Wirewiper]

No I don't have a source, but I would be very surprised if when TfL are in charge and full Elizabeth Line services are operating, they would accept these stations remaining closed on a Sunday.

 

[matt_world2004]

No I don't have a source, but I would be very surprised if when TfL are in charge and full Elizabeth Line services are operating, they would accept these stations remaining closed on a Sunday.

It is absoloutely a desire to run trains to hanwell and west ealing on sunday.

 

[cactustwirly]

No I don't have a source, but I would be very surprised if when TfL are in charge and full Elizabeth Line services are operating, they would accept these stations remaining closed on a Sunday.

It's out of TfLs control since it's NR's track, and GWR's IC services will always take priority.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

No I don't have a source, but I would be very surprised if when TfL are in charge and full Elizabeth Line services are operating, they would accept these stations remaining closed on a Sunday.

The complication is that back in the 1970s British Rail demolished many of the platform 1's on the down main. That was in the interest of aligning the main line for 125 mph operation. Later there was a practice of Sunday and late evening closures from time to time of the relief lines which presents a problem if there's no platform for stopping trains. If there's no scheduled service, you don't need a rail replacement bus. At Hayes I think they rebuilt the platform on the down main.

 

[Wirewiper]

It's out of TfLs control since it's NR's track, and GWR's IC services will always take priority.

When the GWML goes back to being a four-track railway seven days a week this won't matter. ICs and locals will be segregated under normal operation.

 

[matt_world2004]

It's out of TfLs control since it's NR's track, and GWR's IC services will always take priority.

One of the service enhancements tfl specified would happen when ot got devolved to them was a sunday service for hanwell and West Ealing . that was a service enhancement delivered by crossrail and agreed with network rail.

 

[JonathanH]

When the GWML goes back to being a four-track railway seven days a week this won't matter. ICs and locals will be segregated under normal operation.

Is the GWML (and the GEML to Shenfield for that matter) really going to be a four-track railway seven days a week? Even the WCML is two track on Sunday mornings and late evening. They have to allow maintenance at some point or other.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is the GWML (and the GEML to Shenfield for that matter) really going to be a four-track railway seven days a week? Even the WCML is two track on Sunday mornings and late evening. They have to allow maintenance at some point or other.

No, it will probably stay 2 track in the evenings, meaning that Acton, West Ealing & Hanwell won't have late night/early morning services services.
There's less IC services during the evening's, but quite a lot of freight, so I'd imagine a service pattern like: 2tph to Heathrow & 2tph to Reading.

The MML is 2 track on Sundays, so has the GWML, even before the upgrade works

 

[itfcfan]

I've searched online for confirmation of a Sunday service for the smaller stations on the western side of Crossrail. I couldn't find any references from an official source, but "Ealing Today" referenced a Crossrail aim in this article from 2014 - http://www.ealingtoday.co.uk/default.asp?section=info&page=eacrossrailhanwell001.htm:

Crossrail have also stated that they intend to deliver a Sunday service at every station on the line; however this will not be confirmed until closer to the service opening.

A Labour London Assembly member is also quoted:

“I will continue to press the Mayor and Crossrail to ensure that we have a minimum of four trains per hour at all times, and will be watching closely to ensure that Crossrail come good on their pledge to deliver the long awaited Sunday service.”

 

[Brian1949]

Re: Greenford branch. Passenger numbers have reduced significantly since the service was terminated at the outpost of West Ealing (to make way for the new 8 car Hayes -Paddington service). Passenger numbers are based on informmation I received to a freedom of information request I put in to Transport for London. And the reason why passenger numbers have reduced so much is because of the inconvenience of the somewhat haphazard connection at West Ealing and the fact that GWR have kept to the 30 minute interval service on the Greenford line. There isn't even any seating or shelters on Greenford/Paddington platform (see photo attached) - talk about passenger unfriendly!

I did suggest to GWR that what would have been a good idea was to maintain the two train service on the Greenford branch to offer a 15 minute service during peak times between Greenford - West Ealing (this might have even enhanced passenger numbers) and then to stand down the 8 car Hayes - Paddington service outside peak times with the Greenford service being extended to Paddington as before as a 30 minute interval service (two car service quite adequate between West Ealing - Paddington during off peak times). This way passengers on the Greenford line would have got an enhanced service during peak times (to compensate for the loss of the through service during peak times) and peak hour travellers from West Ealing would have got extra capacity (during peak times the two car Greenford service was completely rammed West Ealing - Paddington).

With a 15 minute interval service during peak times on the Greenford line it wouldn't matter so much about the connection from Paddington not being perfect because even if you just miss the Greenford service there would be another train along in about 8 mins (so, at least, there would be somewhere to sit down).

When Crossrail is fully up and running then obviously there would be no question of the Greenford service running through to Paddington so what then ? I think the service should at least run to Ealing Broadway (it did this even back in the days of steam). But how and what about the platform space ? Here's a possible scenario: When Crossrail is fully up and running I expect a lot of passengers who currently take the Central line from Ealing Broadway to central London will prefer to take the faster Crossrail service. So, if a less frequent service is then acceptable on the Central line how about the Central line gives up its two platrforms at Ealing Broadway and instead makes do with one platform (i.e. the 3rd platform on the District Line). Then build a single line track from West Ealing to Ealing Broadway to take the Greenford service. There is some space on the side between West Ealing and Ealing Broadway but there would, of course, be the need for some tunnelling.

Then, if you really wanted to be ambitious, how about the conversion of the Greenford line to a new tube line and extend it onto the Central line at Greenford. Then to run to Ruislip Gardends, go around the Central line depot and then join the Metropolitan line to Uxbridge. This could perhaps be known as a London Link Line - i.e. linking the rail and bus hub of Ealing Broadway (with its busy commercial and retail) to the bus hub of Uxbridge (also with it's busy commercial and retail). On the way it would also link up with the Chiltern line at South Ruislip.

And if you wanted to be really, really ambitious how about extending the present Barking to Gospel Oak service to Willsden Junction and then to Ealing Broadway via Acton Main Line (and to use the other adjacent vacant Central line platform). Thus, you would then have a London Link service running from Barking in the east to Uxbridge in the west in two sections: Uxbridge - Ealing Broadway and Ealing Broadway - Barking.

 

[class ep-09]

Re: Greenford branch. Passenger numbers have reduced significantly since the service was terminated at the outpost of West Ealing (to make way for the new 8 car Hayes -Paddington service). Passenger numbers are based on informmation I received to a freedom of information request I put in to Transport for London. And the reason why passenger numbers have reduced so much is because of the inconvenience of the somewhat haphazard connection at West Ealing and the fact that GWR have kept to the 30 minute interval service on the Greenford line. There isn't even any seating or shelters on Greenford/Paddington platform (see photo attached) - talk about passenger unfriendly!

I did suggest to GWR that what would have been a good idea was to maintain the two train service on the Greenford branch to offer a 15 minute service during peak times between Greenford - West Ealing (this might have even enhanced passenger numbers) and then to stand down the 8 car Hayes - Paddington service outside peak times with the Greenford service being extended to Paddington as before as a 30 minute interval service (two car service quite adequate between West Ealing - Paddington during off peak times). This way passengers on the Greenford line would have got an enhanced service during peak times (to compensate for the loss of the through service during peak times) and peak hour travellers from West Ealing would have got extra capacity (during peak times the two car Greenford service was completely rammed West Ealing - Paddington).

With a 15 minute interval service during peak times on the Greenford line it wouldn't matter so much about the connection from Paddington not being perfect because even if you just miss the Greenford service there would be another train along in about 8 mins (so, at least, there would be somewhere to sit down).

When Crossrail is fully up and running then obviously there would be no question of the Greenford service running through to Paddington so what then ? I think the service should at least run to Ealing Broadway (it did this even back in the days of steam). But how and what about the platform space ? Here's a possible scenario: When Crossrail is fully up and running I expect a lot of passengers who currently take the Central line from Ealing Broadway to central London will prefer to take the faster Crossrail service. So, if a less frequent service is then acceptable on the Central line how about the Central line gives up its two platrforms at Ealing Broadway and instead makes do with one platform (i.e. the 3rd platform on the District Line). Then build a single line track from West Ealing to Ealing Broadway to take the Greenford service. There is some space on the side between West Ealing and Ealing Broadway but there would, of course, be the need for some tunnelling.

Then, if you really wanted to be ambitious, how about the conversion of the Greenford line to a new tube line and extend it onto the Central line at Greenford. Then to run to Ruislip Gardends, go around the Central line depot and then join the Metropolitan line to Uxbridge. This could perhaps be known as a London Link Line - i.e. linking the rail and bus hub of Ealing Broadway (with its busy commercial and retail) to the bus hub of Uxbridge (also with it's busy commercial and retail). On the way it would also link up with the Chiltern line at South Ruislip.

And if you wanted to be really, really ambitious how about extending the present Barking to Gospel Oak service to Willsden Junction and then to Ealing Broadway via Acton Main Line (and to use the other adjacent vacant Central line platform). Thus, you would then have a London Link service running from Barking in the east to Uxbridge in the west in two sections: Uxbridge - Ealing Broadway and Ealing Broadway - Barking.
View attachment 47553

I am sorry to say but GWR Hayes Shuttle is no longer. Crossrail took it over from May this year.

I think thee is no chance for Crossrail to give up any paths for Greenford train to Paddington either during peak or off peak.

Crossrail does not want any GWR trains on relief lines ( I think there only will be 2 tph GWR trains using these lines - the semi-fast coming from Oxford- instead existing Oxford stoppers).

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sorry to say but GWR Hayes Shuttle is no longer. Crossrail took it over from May this year.
Crossrail does not want any GWR trains on relief lines ( I think there only will be 2 tph GWR trains using these lines - the semi-fast coming from Oxford- instead existing Oxford stoppers).

As you say, and the main operational problem is crossing conflicts as down trains to the Greenford Branch would have to be pathed across the up relief.

All a bit late to suggest re-instating the through service, I think that horse has bolted long ago, and it isn’t as if it was a recent decision. Also, a short DMU is wasting valuable platform space at Paddington which has really been optimised for more IEP operated intercity services and 8 car EMUs as a minimum on the few remaining short distance runs.

 

[madjack]

@Brian1949 can you share with us the ridership figures you received?

I wonder though if it's a short term dip - definitely not an attractive proposition to have to change at West Ealing and then Paddington - perhaps a bit more appealing when you can get straight from West Ealing to TCR, or ...?

 

[adrock1976]

I'm probably going to stir up a hornet's nest here even though it is not my intention to do so.

Instead of having Thames Turbos on the Greenford shuttle, would it be possible to have 3 sets of 3 car/coach Class 230s, with 2 used to provide a 15 minute frequency with one spare set? This could be an extra Turbo (or 2) for Bristol then

Also thinking it through further although slightly off topic, could there also be an extra 2 sets for a potential Southall - Brentford (the GWR station site, not the London & South Western Railway station on the Hounslow Loop) shuttle? Both the Greenford and possible Brentford sets could have their "home" depot based at Southall or what remains of Old Oak Common.

 

[matt_world2004]

When west ealing gets rebuilt reported passenger numbers may go up as you will need to go through a Gateline to exit/enter west ealing.

 

[etr221]

There use to be a turnback siding at Ealing Broadway but it has since been removed.

Yes. Traditionally the Greenford loop 'local' service was a shuttle from EB (steam railmotor, then pp train, before dieselisation). Pre-nationalisation, and a service reorganisation concentrating GW&GC Joint line (what we now think of as Chiltern) 'suburban' services (to High Wycombe, etc) into Marylebone c1950, most of GW contribution ran via Ealing Broadway and the Greenford loop. The direct line to Greenford was only (?) used for express/long distance services, and (pre Central Line) its railmotor shuttle serving the various halts on the line.

And if you wanted to be really, really ambitious how about extending the present Barking to Gospel Oak service to Willsden Junction and then to Ealing Broadway via Acton Main Line (and to use the other adjacent vacant Central line platform). Thus, you would then have a London Link service running from Barking in the east to Uxbridge in the west in two sections: Uxbridge - Ealing Broadway and Ealing Broadway - Barking.

This was included - to a close approximation - in the London Rail Study (Barran) report of 1974: which as a 'low cost' option for non-radial services suggested diesel Greenford-EB-NLL-North Woolwich and Clapham Junction-Willesden Jn-Hampstead-Barking services (this was in the days when the North London was a cinderella service from Broad Street to Richmond, and the 'T&H' services went to Kentish Town (war time truncation, they used to go through to Moorgate)

 

[Kite159]

When west ealing gets rebuilt reported passenger numbers may go up as you will need to go through a Gateline to exit/enter west ealing.

I hope TfL Rail staff manning those gates know that the stations lack TVMs

 

[hassaanhc]

Extra services for Southall (2.6 million passengers per year) and Hayes & Harlington (3.8 million passengers per year), both with all-day flows, made far more sense than serving stations that combined don't even make 1 million passengers per year. Using the old Greenford path for more Hayes services allowed Southall to finally have a turn-up-and-go frequency off peak, as previously the interval between services was 23-7-23-7 in both directions due to only half the Reading services stopping at Southall.

 

[LeeLivery]

Re: Greenford branch. Passenger numbers have reduced significantly since the service was terminated at the outpost of West Ealing (to make way for the new 8 car Hayes -Paddington service). Passenger numbers are based on informmation I received to a freedom of information request I put in to Transport for London. And the reason why passenger numbers have reduced so much is because of the inconvenience of the somewhat haphazard connection at West Ealing and the fact that GWR have kept to the 30 minute interval service on the Greenford line. There isn't even any seating or shelters on Greenford/Paddington platform (see photo attached) - talk about passenger unfriendly!

I did suggest to GWR that what would have been a good idea was to maintain the two train service on the Greenford branch to offer a 15 minute service during peak times between Greenford - West Ealing (this might have even enhanced passenger numbers) and then to stand down the 8 car Hayes - Paddington service outside peak times with the Greenford service being extended to Paddington as before as a 30 minute interval service (two car service quite adequate between West Ealing - Paddington during off peak times). This way passengers on the Greenford line would have got an enhanced service during peak times (to compensate for the loss of the through service during peak times) and peak hour travellers from West Ealing would have got extra capacity (during peak times the two car Greenford service was completely rammed West Ealing - Paddington).

With a 15 minute interval service during peak times on the Greenford line it wouldn't matter so much about the connection from Paddington not being perfect because even if you just miss the Greenford service there would be another train along in about 8 mins (so, at least, there would be somewhere to sit down).

When Crossrail is fully up and running then obviously there would be no question of the Greenford service running through to Paddington so what then ? I think the service should at least run to Ealing Broadway (it did this even back in the days of steam). But how and what about the platform space ? Here's a possible scenario: When Crossrail is fully up and running I expect a lot of passengers who currently take the Central line from Ealing Broadway to central London will prefer to take the faster Crossrail service. So, if a less frequent service is then acceptable on the Central line how about the Central line gives up its two platrforms at Ealing Broadway and instead makes do with one platform (i.e. the 3rd platform on the District Line). Then build a single line track from West Ealing to Ealing Broadway to take the Greenford service. There is some space on the side between West Ealing and Ealing Broadway but there would, of course, be the need for some tunnelling.

Then, if you really wanted to be ambitious, how about the conversion of the Greenford line to a new tube line and extend it onto the Central line at Greenford. Then to run to Ruislip Gardends, go around the Central line depot and then join the Metropolitan line to Uxbridge. This could perhaps be known as a London Link Line - i.e. linking the rail and bus hub of Ealing Broadway (with its busy commercial and retail) to the bus hub of Uxbridge (also with it's busy commercial and retail). On the way it would also link up with the Chiltern line at South Ruislip.

And if you wanted to be really, really ambitious how about extending the present Barking to Gospel Oak service to Willsden Junction and then to Ealing Broadway via Acton Main Line (and to use the other adjacent vacant Central line platform). Thus, you would then have a London Link service running from Barking in the east to Uxbridge in the west in two sections: Uxbridge - Ealing Broadway and Ealing Broadway - Barking.
View attachment 47553

TfL wants devolution, so dump it on them. They'll put it on the Tube Map (because it's not really a Tube Map anymore). XR opens, usage will rise. Sorted.

 

[ijmad]

@Brian1949 can you share with us the ridership figures you received?

I wonder though if it's a short term dip - definitely not an attractive proposition to have to change at West Ealing and then Paddington - perhaps a bit more appealing when you can get straight from West Ealing to TCR, or ...?

That is surely the long term future of the line, as a simple Crossrail feeder. With potentially 6tph (or more...) calling at West Ealing during the peaks, a sensibly timed 4tph service on the branch could offer a tight cross-platform interchange towards London, which will surely attract more passengers from these stations.