Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[OxtedSignaller]

Do the OBS even have a union to represent them? If the RMT refuses to recognise the new grade then there is no one to negotiate for them.

The RMT has said that they are not willing to discuss terms & conditions but will support members with disciplinary hearings and such. It would be a very silly thing for the RMT not to recognise the grade, therefore abandoning all its members who were transferred to OBS and many of whom have a lot of years membership.

 

[tsr]

The RMT doesn't recognise the OBS grade. It only recognises ex-conductor members who are now in the OBS grade.

New entrants to the role have no formal acknowledgement by the RMT.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do the OBS even have a union to represent them? If the RMT refuses to recognise the new grade then there is no one to negotiate for them.

I would imagine the TSSA have agreed to represent them.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The RMT doesn't recognise the OBS grade. It only recognises ex-conductor members who are now in the OBS grade.

New entrants to the role have no formal acknowledgement by the RMT.

Surely though they either recognise a grade and as such all those employed in the role or not at all? It recognises the members perhaps but there is not much they can do if they do not hold the collective bargaining rights over this grade. I am surprised that TSSA haven't stepped in and offered the OBS representation.

 

[Robertj21a]

It all seems to of gone quiet on the dispute. Surely the RMT should be meeting with GTR getting an agreement based off of the ASLEF agreement and getting it put to a ballot of the members? Its an embarrasment a lot of OBS members have not accepted what has happened has happened and would like to move forward and get some sort of agreement which gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance. But no the RMT has forgotten thats it here to serve its members, and is dragging out the dispute because they haven't come to terms with not getting their own way.

You've lost me a bit - '....gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance'. What's the problem that needs the RMT to get involved ?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

You've lost me a bit - '....gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance'. What's the problem that needs the RMT to get involved ?

Is the RMT not a workers union anymore then? It’s a shame at one stage you could always count on the RMT to support those on the frontline now they seem to be to bothered about pursuing their old school railway agenda at the expense of the workers. GTR offered the union collective bargaining rights, £2,000 lumpsum, voluntary overtime levels and to retain some of the agreements. At the moment OBS in the company lost their 35HRS week with Sunday’s outside the working week, deals on their duty length and breaks, taxi agreements and they had negotiated rosters which would have given them a week off every couple of months or so. The RMT know the battle is lost and a lot of the staffs opinion has changed with time. All I’m saying is they should put an offer to a ballot of members and let them decide.

 

[Robertj21a]

Is the RMT not a workers union anymore then? It’s a shame at one stage you could always count on the RMT to support those on the frontline now they seem to be to bothered about pursuing their old school railway agenda at the expense of the workers. GTR offered the union collective bargaining rights, £2,000 lumpsum, voluntary overtime levels and to retain some of the agreements. At the moment OBS in the company lost their 35HRS week with Sunday’s outside the working week, deals on their duty length and breaks, taxi agreements and they had negotiated rosters which would have given them a week off every couple of months or so. The RMT know the battle is lost and a lot of the staffs opinion has changed with time. All I’m saying is they should put an offer to a ballot of members and let them decide.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of all those details but it seems that you are actually only referring to those OBS who used to be guards. I had assumed that you were posting about the OBS newly recruited from outside the rail industry - and who may not be very interested in joining any union at all.

 

[Emmsie]

Is the RMT not a workers union anymore then? It’s a shame at one stage you could always count on the RMT to support those on the frontline now they seem to be to bothered about pursuing their old school railway agenda at the expense of the workers. GTR offered the union collective bargaining rights, £2,000 lumpsum, voluntary overtime levels and to retain some of the agreements. At the moment OBS in the company lost their 35HRS week with Sunday’s outside the working week, deals on their duty length and breaks, taxi agreements and they had negotiated rosters which would have given them a week off every couple of months or so. The RMT know the battle is lost and a lot of the staffs opinion has changed with time. All I’m saying is they should put an offer to a ballot of members and let them decide.

East Croydon was a nightmare, as there were no ex conductors there was no real representation thus the rosters were pretty bad. The lack of on site parking and night buses made it really difficult to get to work for a 4.17am start unless we cabbed from Purley. They also ended up with far more night shifts than the other bases eg we had night shifts every 8 weeks, Vic had 3 lines in a year. The 4.17 am start was ridiculous as the first train actually worked was the 6am Brighton to London Bridge. On the plus side it was a really nice atmosphere in the depot but everyone was knackered and even staff that had transferred from platform were going back to their old jobs

 

[backontrack]

I know a driver will be there to step in, but let's be honest - in the years to come, we could just say that the train will keep going (ala DLR) and that will be that. Obviously you can use a myriad of sensors like autonomous vehicles to try and add some extra safety, if you wanted. Or just argue that the railway is closed and it's fine.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but it's going to happen one way or another. I fear that we'll likely relax more regulations to make it happen, which is why I envisage many years of strikes if anyone is ever brave enough to propose it.

I think that this is the way that all the bosses eventually see things going, sadly. To them, 'modernisation' is the future and therefore must be pursued at all costs, no matter how many jobs are lost.

 

[Carlisle]

You've lost me a bit - '....gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance'. What's the problem that needs the RMT to get involved ?

Given many rail workers I know aren’t hardline militants these days, im surprised there’s not also a more moderate union in the rail industry, that’s better supported than TSSA or ATCU etc currently are.

 

[Robertj21a]

Given many rail workers I know aren’t hardline militants these days, im surprised there’s not also a more moderate union in the rail industry, that’s better supported than TSSA or ATCU etc currently are.

Perhaps it doesn't need to be a different 'more moderate' union, it could well still be the RMT - if the members decided to take some action to emphasise that they don't like the way in which their union is being run these days. It may be that the ordinary members just need to speak out a lot more.

 

[Carlisle]

Perhaps it doesn't need to be a different 'more moderate' union, it could well still be the RMT - if the members decided to take some action to emphasise that they don't like the way in which their union is being run these days. It may be that the ordinary members just need to speak out a lot more.

You could be right, though isn’t the underlying problem that unlike past times when almost everyone worked for BR, it’s now only that relatively small group of workers with potential to cause disruption/ revenue loss for their employer through strikes that truly feel their union voices are properly heard by the rail industry on a regular basis,nowadays, so we’ll need a culture change on both sides if we’re going to have a better future that a wider range of RMT members feel genuinely worth participating in.

 

[kw12]

It all seems to have gone very quiet with the dispute on Southern, with Southern staff not even taking part in strike action coordinated with tomorrow's strikes on Northern and Greater Anglia (and originally also on South Westetn Railway).

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It all seems to have gone very quiet with the dispute on Southern, with Southern staff not even taking part in strike action coordinated with tomorrow's strikes on Northern and Greater Anglia (and originally also on South Westetn Railway).

The changes have been implemented and staff have accepted the new role and responsibilities. A strike isn’t going to make any difference whatsoever so why should staff lose money for nothing. The RMT has also lost support from a lot of OBS as they don’t recognise the role and haven’t engaged in meaningful discussions regarding this.

 

[mpthomson]

I think that this is the way that all the bosses eventually see things going, sadly. To them, 'modernisation' is the future and therefore must be pursued at all costs, no matter how many jobs are lost.

Modernisation IS the future to all companies, that's how they survive and grow and as, at the end of the day, companies work for their shareholders they are duty bound to pursue more efficient ways of working. Working patterns and jobs available have changed for in just about every industry as time and technology has progressed, whether that's power generation, healthcare, armed forces, transport. Why should the rail industry be any different?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Simple fact is that if RMT recognised obs and instructed all members not to cross picket lines irrespective of grade the strikes might have had more power.

 

[furnessvale]

Simple fact is that if RMT recognised obs and instructed all members not to cross picket lines irrespective of grade the strikes might have had more power.

Firstly, would that be legal if OBSs are not in dispute?

Secondly, why would OBSs strike in support of their ultimate dismissal?

 

[higthomas]

I think that this is the way that all the bosses eventually see things going, sadly. To them, 'modernisation' is the future and therefore must be pursued at all costs, no matter how many jobs are lost.

Modernisation IS the future to all companies, that's how they survive and grow and as, at the end of the day, companies work for their shareholders they are duty bound to pursue more efficient ways of working. Working patterns and jobs available have changed for in just about every industry as time and technology has progressed, whether that's power generation, healthcare, armed forces, transport. Why should the rail industry be any different?

Quite. As a sort of "shareholder" in the government (who actually run the railway) is do fully expect them to modernise industries for the sake of efficiency, no matter how many jobs are lost. If the past 500 years have taught us anything it's that making working more efficient is good for everyone. It's what the agricultural and industrial revolutions were built on, making production more efficient. Jobs being lost is a natural result of innovation. But it means that the railways should get cheaper (I am well aware they won't) meaning more people can travel meaning more people being able to do the things they want to do.

And, the less unnecessary money we spend on running the railways the more we can spend on actually improving them.

P.S. I'm not trying to enter into whether guards are necessary/beneficial just that if they are deemed surplus to requirements, it is ridiculous to keep them just to prevent job losses.

 

[Carlisle]

Simple fact is that if RMT recognised obs and instructed all members not to cross picket lines irrespective of grade the strikes might have had more power.

Or possibly better still the members instruct their unions hierarchy to double their efforts to try and reach a workable solution, allowing those concerned to move on with their lives .

 

[Dave1987]

Quite. As a sort of "shareholder" in the government (who actually run the railway) is do fully expect them to modernise industries for the sake of efficiency, no matter how many jobs are lost. If the past 500 years have taught us anything it's that making working more efficient is good for everyone. It's what the agricultural and industrial revolutions were built on, making production more efficient. Jobs being lost is a natural result of innovation. But it means that the railways should get cheaper (I am well aware they won't) meaning more people can travel meaning more people being able to do the things they want to do.

And, the less unnecessary money we spend on running the railways the more we can spend on actually improving them.

P.S. I'm not trying to enter into whether guards are necessary/beneficial just that if they are deemed surplus to requirements, it is ridiculous to keep them just to prevent job losses.

That’s going well isn’t it.... record numbers in employment but lots in poorly paid insecure work. Casualisation of work will kill people’s pay, terms and conditions which will harm the economy. Lots of people going from well paid secure work to poorly paid insecure work..... The economy is on a knife edge with inflation high but the BoE terrified to increase interest rates because the economy is so weak. Fantastic economy the Tories have built eh. But hey as long as they neutralise the unions they don’t care.

 

[Robertj21a]

As you say, record numbers in employment - most people would applaud that !

'Lots in poorly paid insecure work' - yes, some are, but many other people have eventually managed to find flexible hours that suit their particular circumstances. There's no need to always paint the blackest possible picture, it just distorts the true facts.

'Economy is on a knife edge.....' - are you sure..........???

'Fantastic economy the Tories have built eh' - yes, very true. I'm surprised to see that you agree.........

 

[InOban]

Everyone's 'true facts' are those data which fit their particular political philosophy.

 

[HowardGWR]

What has this to do with DOO? Another thread that's run out of steam and just pants away awaiting a fresh impetus. Should this thread be closed? Southern's sorted isn't it?

 

[the sniper]

but many other people have eventually managed to find flexible hours that suit their particular circumstances

Does your permanent manning of this thread particularly suit your circumstances?

 

[Dave1987]

As you say, record numbers in employment - most people would applaud that !

I would if it was secure decent jobs that people are being put into but its not. Huge swathes of people are in insecure, poorly paid work without the ability to demand higher wages. And because the Government wants to nullify unions collective bargaining goes out of the window.

'Lots in poorly paid insecure work' - yes, some are, but many other people have eventually managed to find flexible hours that suit their particular circumstances. There's no need to always paint the blackest possible picture, it just distorts the true facts.

I am painting true reflection of the economy as of now.

'Economy is on a knife edge.....' - are you sure..........???

Er yeah! Without wishing to drag this thread off topic, if the economy is as strong as the Government believes it is then why if the BoE fearful to raise interest rates because it believes the economy isn't strong enough to cope with even a slight interest rate hike.

 

[Dave1987]

Everyone's 'true facts' are those data which fit their particular political philosophy.

Indeed there are many many people on here who make posts on this forum about railway roles they have no clue about and have never done yet try to manipulate things to their ideology.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would if it was secure decent jobs that people are being put into but its not. Huge swathes of people are in insecure, poorly paid work without the ability to demand higher wages. And because the Government wants to nullify unions collective bargaining goes out of the window.


I am painting true reflection of the economy as of now.


Er yeah! Without wishing to drag this thread off topic, if the economy is as strong as the Government believes it is then why if the BoE fearful to raise interest rates because it believes the economy isn't strong enough to cope with even a slight interest rate hike.

As you suggest, we're in danger of going too far off-topic. All I would say is that you are simply looking at all those issues from your own personal point of view, inevitably, other people may well have views that would conflict.

 

[Chrisgr31]

If the past 500 years have taught us anything it's that making working more efficient is good for everyone. It's what the agricultural and industrial revolutions were built on, making production more efficient. Jobs being lost is a natural result of innovation.

I am not convinced that is true. What is now happening is that in many workplaces there is an expectation that you will do more hours than you are contracted for with out additional pay, making production more efficient in many cases actually involves cutting corners and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

As regards Souterh I assume at some point the RMT will call another strike but they have no impact these days.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

in all fairness Im not really suprised. The union cant really take this particular fight any further. Grayling got his way and has starved the staff out of their HP cars (as he so well put it) and with nothing to lose Go merely plodded on with their contractual obligations and did what the DfT told them to do.

In a similar analogy look what happened when buses went DOO, putting all the bus conductors out of work. The initial arguements of safety, lost revenue and extended journey times soon faded as the general public put up with the extended journey times, safety wasnt compromised on a daily basis however fares didnt go down with the apparent cost savings and no doubt southern, Gat Ex and Thameslink fares haven't gone down either. If anything the combined cost of the admittedly now dispensable OBS and massively paid off driver is now higher, however I wouldnt be suprised to see natural wastage kick in here and the OBS dwindle in numbers. Only then will Grayling get his cost savings he so desperately seeks.

best plan now for the union is to regroup, and take the war into a mutually beficial direction. Time look at the whole situation and come up with a plan that secures the best for not only its members, but for everyone in the conductor/train manager/OBS role. DOO is coming, its only a matter of time. The likes of the southern franchise will only serve to prove it works to the people that want it to work. Works of course doesnt mean its the correct way but when MPs are looking for political favour then what works to gain votes is all that matters plus government knows the union will cave in eventually and that by then the offer will be substantially less than what was originally tabled - and besides, there are other ways a company can be brought to its knees than by striking. The battle may be lost, but the war is far from over

 

[higthomas]

I am not convinced that is true. What is now happening is that in many workplaces there is an expectation that you will do more hours than you are contracted for with out additional pay, making production more efficient in many cases actually involves cutting corners and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

Yes, sadly that does seem to be a current problem, but should be something a good union would help alleviate....

In general I was referring to the grand sweep rather than the specifics. There are obviously efficiencies which are simply exploiting workers harder, but it is the good ones, e.g. replacing 1000s of dockers with a couple of crane drivers, which really make differences.