"Timetable's changing. You can't have one."

[BlueFox]

Did you ever see the television sketch where someone calls into a modern hi-tech retail establishment and wishes to buy a gramophone?

Assuming you mean this one, it's from 1980, so not so modern...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The only timetable I've seen so far from the 20th May is timetable 39 (Wharfedale Line) is available from Menston.

 

[al78]

People in the olden days probably didn't see a "need" for a TV set.
Didn't someone a couple of years ago suggest having a TV had become a human right? How things change!

Unless you try one for 6 months, I don't think it's wise to say you don't need it.
I thought I didn't need cruise control on my car. Now I use it all the time on the motorway.
I mean, most people don't need much. I don't need a smartphone, but it enhances my life in so many good ways.
It's like saying you don't need to eat bread, ever again, as you can get nutrients from other things. But people do eat bread because they like it/want it. I hope that explains my point about need vs want. You may not need a smart phone but I bet it would make your life better - no matter how much you deny it :P

A TV set in general is not a need, it is a want. you will not die if you don't own a TV set. Cruise control on a car is also not a need, since plenty of people can drive a car without it. Hell, even a car is not a need for some people, I did without one for a few years and survived. People seem to confuse wants and needs, classing nice-to-have items as essentials, as though they think saying they need something instead of want something will not make them look selfish. Yes without some of the non-life-essential items careful planning is required as some things become more difficult or even impractical.

 

[riceuten]

I picked up a paper Thameslink timetable leaflet for the Stevenage to London KX/SPI at Welwyn North. None available at Stevenage, however...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The elderly lady friends of my wife said the new Northern timetables 18 and 21 were on display at Heald Green station ready for the commencement period of the new timetable.

 

[Iron Duke]

Hi, everyone

I've just joined this site and as a former BR, First Group, Railtrack and lastly NR employee I think I've seen the railway from different perspectives but I'm a few years out of date and suddenly found my interest in the industry rekindled for some reason or other.

Back in BR days the production of pocket TTs was considered pretty important especially where the then PTEs were concerned and to be late distributing them was a serious issue for the individual whose job it was to get
'em out. Probably a good bollocking at least!!

As for using phones or a printed TT my reason for not using my phone is simple it costs me to access the internet as my sim is provided free by talktalk but only "gives" me a very small amount of data
and anything over the limit is costly.

As for Northern's TTs my missus wanted a new one when travelling the other day and was told come back in June!!
Given the quality of their current "service" however a lack of TTs is the least of their problems.

 

[talldave]

You can usually download a "pdf" version of a timetable- just the once (do it on wifi at home or local coffee shop?) and then it's always available to read on your phone without using any data.

 

[bearhugger]

At Middlesbrough yesterday there was timetables 2, 3 & 5 available.

 

[adrock1976]

At Middlesbrough yesterday there was timetables 2, 3 & 5 available.

I never knew that Arriva Northern have took over the London Fenchurch Street - Shoeburyness route, as Tables 1-5 related to the former London, Tilbury, & Southend Railway metals in the Great Britain Passenger Railway Timetable book.

Is there no national standard these days? It would save timetable numbers being misappropriated everywhere.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I never knew that Arriva Northern have took over the London Fenchurch Street - Shoeburyness route, as Tables 1-5 related to the former London, Tilbury, & Southend Railway metals in the Great Britain Passenger Railway Timetable book.

Is there no national standard these days? It would save timetable numbers being misappropriated everywhere.

How many people seriously think that though?

Given that the various Northern franchises for as long as I can remember have utilised some form of numerical timetable booklet system on neatly broken down routes, as have the likes of Southeastern, Anglia and many others, is it really such a heinous act? People in Morpeth need the conveniently-numbered 1 booklet for their trains to Newcastle, and have done for the past decade. Similarly, punters hundreds of miles away in mid-Wales know they need ATW booklet 1 for their trips to Pwllheli, and have done for the past decade. The chances that some unremarkable rail user in either of those situations is going to forego picking it up as they think it pertains to South Essex or anywhere else is naught.

It makes sense that each Toc labels their publications as they see fit. Perhaps when they get consolidated into a huge book that went out of fashion, I daresay relevance, years ago, then they need splitting up into odd dribs and drabs of tables and given sequential numbering. However, 99.9% of people are going to carry on in perfect understanding of their little corner of the network and just what number or letter they need, and not aghast at the appropriation of stealing an irrelevant number from something that is as good as dead.

 

[The Ham]

How many people seriously think that though?

Given that the various Northern franchises for as long as I can remember have utilised some form of numerical timetable booklet system on neatly broken down routes, as have the likes of Southeastern, Anglia and many others, is it really such a heinous act? People in Morpeth need the conveniently-numbered 1 booklet for their trains to Newcastle, and have done for the past decade. Similarly, punters hundreds of miles away in mid-Wales know they need ATW booklet 1 for their trips to Pwllheli, and have done for the past decade. The chances that some unremarkable rail user in either of those situations is going to forego picking it up as they think it pertains to South Essex or anywhere else is naught.

It makes sense that each Toc labels their publications as they see fit. Perhaps when they get consolidated into a huge book that went out of fashion, I daresay relevance, years ago, then they need splitting up into odd dribs and drabs of tables and given sequential numbering. However, 99.9% of people are going to carry on in perfect understanding of their little corner of the network and just what number or letter they need, and not aghast at the appropriation of stealing an irrelevant number from something that is as good as dead.

In fact there's nothing stopping the "big book" replicating the local numbers just with a TOC reference in front (i.e. TPE 01, SE 05, SWR 11, etc.). In doing so you would know that you were looking the right train company's area, whilst still allowing those used to the local numbers to find them quickly in the big book.

By using dark printing on part of the edge of the page you could even find the right section for each TOC fairly quickly without increasing your costs (i.e. when you look at the edge of the closed book the would be a series of dark marks down the book, each one being a different TOC).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assuming you mean this one, it's from 1980, so not so modern...

When you reach my age, 1980 is still "of recent times" and I am pleased that my memory did not fail me.

You are most correct in assuming this was the one that I had in mind.

 

[142blue]

Northern timetables now being delivered

 

[Iron Duke]

You can usually download a "pdf" version of a timetable- just the once (do it on wifi at home or local coffee shop?) and then it's always available to read on your phone without using any data.

Yes that's OK when I am making a point to point journey but on occasions I decide on a change of route because of delays/whim or whatever.
You know set out for (a) then decide to go to (b) or (c) instead.

 

[geoffk]

Northern timetables now being delivered

Yesterday, Hazel Grove station had most of the leaflets relevant to Manchester, but Victoria and Piccadilly had none.

 

[route101]

Newcastle had the NE services Northern timetables , now can do Whitby to Carlisle .
Edinburgh had the North East TPE leaflet which is off different design to the Scottish Services one.

 

[geoffk]

I have a smartphone, a tablet, a Chromebook, a desktop PC, a work laptop and work desktop. I've worked in IT for 33 years and I had one of the first 'Microcomputers' as they were know (a TRS-80 FWIW).
And I still don't have any need for Internet banking. My bank account pretty much runs itself, money goes in from my employer and out via direct debit or debit card. On just two occasions in the last five years have I needed to visit a branch to perform a bank transfer. Those two occasions in no way justify the security risk of online banking.

If you're frequently transferring money between accounts etc., yes, internet banking is useful. If you don't have a money 'cushion' and are often in danger of going overdrawn, I guess it's useful (although I can get my balance at the ATM). If you use your bank account like I do, it's pretty much pointless and an unnecessary risk..

Don't you have to visit the bank to pay in cheques?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't you have to visit the bank to pay in cheques?

If you think that visiting a bank is an onerous task, then I am indeed sorry for you. Town centres as such were once places to visit to enjoy the retail experience but one of the prices that have to be paid for the acceptance of online shopping and internet banking is the reduction of the numbers of both banking and retail outlets, with the recently-announced Marks and Spencer store closure programme being a prime example of this.

 

[The Ham]

If you think that visiting a bank is an onerous task, then I am indeed sorry for you. Town centres as such were once places to visit to enjoy the retail experience but one of the prices that have to be paid for the acceptance of online shopping and internet banking is the reduction of the numbers of both banking and retail outlets, with the recently-announced Marks and Spencer store closure programme being a prime example of this.

It does of course depend on how easy it is for someone to get to a town centre and how much you enjoy the retail experience.


I for one very much like not having to go into shops as much as I once did and having access to products that wouldn't otherwise be available to me.


There's also the option of paying cheques into several different banks at Post Offices.


Personally the big advantage of online banking is the ability to move money to saving accounts (not that it earns much) and track spending (I recall my parents logging every payment they made so they knew what money they had) which used to be fairly time consuming whilst now it's just a case of logging in.


There is a risk with online fraud, but this is probably more likely to be undertaken using details from a card than from using your bank details.

In fact over 50% of online fraud in the UK is from online shopping/auction scams, which if is over £100 and paid for by credit card you won't loose out on due to the protection given to you.

The next biggest fraud is being asked for payments associated with software (either being asked for payments or being offered support and having your computer taken over).

Neither of these will be any more or less likely to cause you loss of you have online banking as long as you don't save your bank login details on your browser.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It does of course depend on how easy it is for someone to get to a town centre and how much you enjoy the retail experience.

I for one very much like not having to go into shops as much as I once did and having access to products that wouldn't otherwise be available to me.

There is the social aspect of shop closures with the loss of jobs and the resultant difference in area ambiance that affect the very nature of town centres. This point seems lost on some people who see online purchasing as a way of achieving personal satisfaction.

 

[The Ham]

There is the social aspect of shop closures with the loss of jobs and the resultant difference in area ambiance that affect the very nature of town centres. This point seems lost on some people who see online purchasing as a way of achieving personal satisfaction.

I don't deny that there are problems associated with shop closures.

However I didn't say I get satisfaction from shopping online as I just prefer not having to go into a town centre to buy things if I don't need to. However there's a lot of other people for whom going shopping does give them satisfaction and probably a lot more than those who prefer it the other way around.

There's an argument that in some areas there's too many town centres and a reduction in the number of these (or at least a focusing on different markets by each) wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's an argument that in some areas there's too many town centres and a reduction in the number of these (or at least a focusing on different markets by each) wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

What then would you think would be the types of re-use of those defunct town centres in financial, social and aesthetic terms?

 

[faltskog36abba]

Yesterday, Hazel Grove station had most of the leaflets relevant to Manchester, but Victoria and Piccadilly had none.

I wish I had read your post earlier, I went to Manchester Victoria for timetables today and they had one Trans Pennine timetable-Newcastle -airport.

 

[Dentonian]

If you think that visiting a bank is an onerous task, then I am indeed sorry for you. Town centres as such were once places to visit to enjoy the retail experience but one of the prices that have to be paid for the acceptance of online shopping and internet banking is the reduction of the numbers of both banking and retail outlets, with the recently-announced Marks and Spencer store closure programme being a prime example of this.

Another vicious circle, the RBS is closing ALL banks within a 5 mile radius of where I live, on the basis that some (not all) branches have a NatWest within a mile. Coincidentally, BOTH the M&S closures in GM are withing a few hundred metres of two of the closing RBS branches.

With banking not all of us "accept" internet banking. On line shopping however, has its advantages, especially for food - and especially if you don't drive. Any delivery charge is wiped out by bus fares; the delivery vans are refrigerated and town centres are increasingly hostile for pedestrians. Trouble is the next logical step will be that once they've captured the market, delivery charges will increase and you won't be able to order on the internet; you will have to order AND pay through a Smartphone app.

 

[Dentonian]

I wish I had read your post earlier, I went to Manchester Victoria for timetables today and they had one Trans Pennine timetable-Newcastle -airport.

And that one timetable was only delivered The Day Before You Came. Sorry, couldn't resist it, what with the original video portraying Rail Commuters.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And that one timetable was only delivered The Day Before You Came. Sorry, couldn't resist it, what with the original video portraying Rail Commuters.....

I am glad you mentioned this song, which was somewhat different than the normal Abba-type songs. The haunting melody was one that has always stayed in my mind, even at the age of 73.

 

[LAX54]

In your opinion of course :P
There's many things that are similar.
Banking is another sector where unless you're internet connected, it's getting more and more difficult to bank.
At one point, analog TVs were the same - and look where we are now.

Fact is, reliance on the internet and smart phones will only increase.
If you don't "get with it" you will miss out.

And look at the right old mess those with TSB accounts are in, and 5 weeks on its still not sorted ! and it something that will only get worse not better,

 

[LAX54]

Do you ever wonder how much paper/money/time is wasted by over printing timetables?

Yes, some people may want a printed version but in many walks of life some groups of people's needs are sactificed by the advent of progress.

Railcards are another one that is slowly moving online.

I find paper timetables confusing.
If I pick up a London Midland timetable, I don't want to see Virgin Trains in it... otherwise I'd pick up a Virgin timetable.



1: My phone takes less than 1 second to "wake". It was part of the marketing for it.
2: There are many "battery saving" functions you can use on phones, but having it charged is now a part of life for many. Plus, the next generation of phones are all coming with quick charge. 0% - 50% in 20 mins or so.
3: If you can get 4G signal in Rugby, I suspect you can get it in Preston. I was reading something the other day that says even if you have full signal, the quality of the line might not be great.
4: Or you can just use an online journey planner to do the same.
5: I've dropped my phone a few times, still working, no cracked screen. There are far more phones that aren't dropped than those that are.
I understand where you're coming from though. However the fact is, paper anything is on the way out. Certain things are taking longer than others but be it timetables, railcards, tickets... this is what the digital revolution is all about.

Banking is another good one.
If you don't have a bank account, you can't get paid.
Yet I still know people who use cash for everything, but they're unable to justify why they create such hassle for themselves by doing so.

It's like the people who "don't do contactless" <-- nobody has given me a good reason why they don't use it but would rather struggle to insert their card, mess about typing in a pin, wait, then pull their card out. And for some people, the last task is often forgotten.
WIth contactless, your card never leaves your hand, so in that sense it's better/more secure.

It does not need to leave your hand, nor your wallet for someone to take £30 from it ! and those £30's can add up ! People say use your smart phone, nut millions don't have a smart phone, or even want one, a bog standard mobile phone is all they want or need.
Put a contactless card near another card like an oyster, and then more problems !
Whenever someone complains that something has not worked when travelling by train 99% of the time it's 'on line' related. the UK's online system is not up to it yet, not sure why its the UK that seems to 'lead the way' in shutting down anything not 'connected', Europe and the U.S seem to be a bit more savvy and do not put all their eggs in one basket !

 

[The Ham]

It does not need to leave your hand, nor your wallet for someone to take £30 from it ! and those £30's can add up ! People say use your smart phone, nut millions don't have a smart phone, or even want one, a bog standard mobile phone is all they want or need.

Put a contactless card near another card like an oyster, and then more problems !

Whenever someone complains that something has not worked when travelling by train 99% of the time it's 'on line' related. the UK's online system is not up to it yet, not sure why its the UK that seems to 'lead the way' in shutting down anything not 'connected', Europe and the U.S seem to be a bit more savvy and do not put all their eggs in one basket !

You can get card shields to protect against card skimming/card clashes.


It also depends on where you are, someone in a rural area/small towns probably isn't going to be brushing against others and so the risk of card skimming is reduced.


If also suggest that the risk of someone trying to skim your card is a problem but over played by some big numbers being involved. For instance there's something like £450 million in card fraud in the UK, yet the spend on cards is about £640 billion.

Both of which are mind boggling numbers, so in comparison of you spend £10,000 a year by card if you were defrauded by the average amount you would loose about £7. Most people then receive that back from their banks.

However, buying card shields will provide an extra level of protection.

 

[The Ham]

There is the social aspect of shop closures with the loss of jobs and the resultant difference in area ambiance that affect the very nature of town centres. This point seems lost on some people who see online purchasing as a way of achieving personal satisfaction.

Town centres adapt as time goes on. 20 years ago it was out of town shopping that was the problem, before that it was the supermarkets. I would suggest that most towns are unrecognisable from the 90's, which were fairly unrecognisable from the 70's, which were unrecognisable from the 20's.

Give it another 20 years and they will be different again. How will that look, I don't know but probably more office space with shops and food outlets to service that space. There's likely to be more small "shop window" shops where there's limited ranges but free click and collect services from a much wider range. For instance lots of M&S simply food's, some with 100 of the most sold ranges of clothing but all with an order and collect point. Likewise Sainsburys and Asdas with order and collect points for Argos.

In doing so even fairly small places could have access to a range of products which they couldn't previously have accessed (no internet access required).